PPro on a BX?

Roland Scheidegger wrote:

P2B wrote:

I intercepted some old systems on their way to the dumpster today, and
grabbed a couple of interesting items I hadn't seen befo Asus
C-P6S1 Socket-8 to Slot-1 adapters, complete with PPro 200Mhz/1MB L2
CPUs. They were on Asus 440FX boards, KN97-X IIRC.

Wow, didn't know such adapters exist...

New one on me too - piqued my interest :-)

Very little to them - a Socket 8, 6 filter capacitors and a dozen or so
surface mount caps, nothing else.

Anyone know if this is a chipset issue, or strictly BIOS? I'd like to
use the processors, but the only spare motherboards available have
440BX chipsets.

Is it possible the PPro might have some erratas which make it necessary
to have PCB/bios workarounds? I haven't looked at the spec update, but
such errors are not uncommon. And the workarounds might not be present
on the P2B.
And I hope the bios doesn't use some mmx code to initialize it...
Also, google shows some people got it to work in P2L97 boards, but not
with all bios versions (only the oldest one worked?), which probably
indicates it is a bios problem on the p2b too.

It's definitely starting to look that way - further research shows the
initial KN97-X BIOS didn't support PPro either, Asus released one to go
with the adapters.

Do you have any ancient Asus BX BIOSes? The oldest I have is 1006
(which, surprisingly, boots a P3-S but gets no further along with the PPro).

P2B

Spajky wrote:

On Wed, 06 Oct 2004 22:29:46 -0400, P2B wrote:


I intercepted some old systems on their way to the dumpster today, and
grabbed a couple of interesting items I hadn't seen befo Asus C-P6S1
Socket-8 to Slot-1 adapters, complete with PPro 200Mhz/1MB L2 CPUs.


I tried them on a few Asus 440BX boards ...
and they POST but freeze after announcing the BIOS


The 440BX datasheet does not *explicitly* state PPro CPUs are supported,


hey P2B, you experiment so much, that one day you´ll come out with a
success of running even IBM G4 or AMD chip on BX ... :-))))) ...

:-)

I suppose if I learn to write BIOS from scratch, anything is possible...

P2B

P2B wrote:

=20
=20
David Maynard wrote:
=20
David Maynard wrote:

P2B wrote:



David Maynard wrote:

P2B wrote:

I intercepted some old systems on their way to the dumpster today,=
=20
and grabbed a couple of interesting items I hadn't seen befo=20
Asus C-P6S1 Socket-8 to Slot-1 adapters, complete with PPro=20
200Mhz/1MB L2 CPUs. They were on Asus 440FX boards, KN97-X IIRC.

I tried them on a few Asus 440BX boards (with FSB and multiplier=20
jumpers set appropriately), and they POST but freeze after=20
announcing the BIOS version - no CPU identification is displayed. =

My POST diagnostic card says x0D, which is undocumented but IME=20
means "BIOS does not support CPU" - so I tried a rom.by patched=20
BIOS. It got a little further - correctly displays the CPU type=20
(but not speed) and POST code x0E before freezing.

The 440BX datasheet does not *explicitly* state PPro CPUs are=20
supported, but quotes like "A Pentium=AE Pro processor-based syste=
m=20
with the Intel=AE 440BX AGPset supports 4 GB of addressable memory=
=20
space and 64 KB + 3 of addressable I/O space" strongly suggests=20
they are.

Anyone know if this is a chipset issue, or strictly BIOS? I'd like=
=20
to use the processors, but the only spare motherboards available=20
have 440BX chipsets.

TIA

P2B






I'm not sure which of the 440BX data sheets you've got but

Intel=AE 440BX AGPset:
82443BX Host Bridge/Controller
Datasheet
April 1998





Yup :-)

makes it pretty clear that BX works with the Pentium Pro although i=
t
doesn't support all it's capabilities (such as PCI ECC and 4 gig =

memory).

You'd think it would work because a P-II is basically a repackaged =

(slot
cart), fewer features (removed the 'mission critical' ones), less=20
expensive
(slower cache) Pentium Pro.

Because of that I'd say it's a BIOS problem.





Must be - since it POSTs :-?

Googling for PPro & 440BX doesn't yield much. I don't know of any BX=
=20
boards with 'official' support for PPro.




Neither do I and it doesn't surprise me because, as much as that spec=
=20
sheet says about Pentium Pro, why would anyone want to? The Pro isn't=
=20
a 100Mhz FSB processor and BX was specifically made for the 100Mhz=20
FSB P-IIs.

Nearest thing I found to a Pro on a P-II motherboard, besides the=20
Asus that slot adapter was made for, is this one

http://www.fonck.nl/computer/asuslxpro.htm
=20
=20
LX chipset... getting warmer :-)

Yeah. That was part of the reason for mentioning it: Not 'strictly' FX.

=20
(note that he mentions only a particular rev BIOS works)
=20
=20
Perhaps not... the 'particular rev' is the very first release for that =

board, and he says later versions didn't work :-(

Yes, I know: 'old'.

=20
And then this, sort of, 'PCChips, like, dual socket' (ooo that hurt..=
=20
but then it felt good too g) supermicro board with a socket 8 and=20
Slot-1 both. (That'll confuse the heck out of someone with a PPGA=20
celeron)

http://www.supermicro.com/newsroom/p...ess050797.cfm=

=20
=20
FX chipset - same as the Asus board the adapter was made for.

Right. But both on the same board from a different manufacturer suggested=
=20
there's nothing particularly 'special' in the hardware for one vs the oth=
er=20
and that the Asus adapter shouldn't need an 'Asus' board. Not 'proof', bu=
t=20
a suggestion.


You hack around in the BIOS. Can't you 'steal' the CPU codes from one=
=20
of those and patch it onto the one you want?
=20
=20
Sure I can... but it isn't a microcode problem - POST doesn't get=20
anywhere near that far,
=20
Although, I beginning to suspect that it isn't just processor=20
identification, or even microcode, and that the Pro needs the=20
registers set up a bit differently that the P-II.
=20
=20
My thinking too - I hoped Bios Patcher would help. Quoting from the man=
ual:
=20
______________________________________
=3D Patcher can add support of CPU:
=20
- AMD K6/K6-2/K6-III/K6-2+/K6-III+
- Intel Pentium Pro/Pentium II/Pentium III/Celeron
- AMD K7/K75/Athlon/Duron/Athlon 4/Athlon MP/Athlon XP (tested!)
- Intel Pentium 4/Celeron-478 (tested!)
=20
"Support" means not only names of CPUs (which shows with kernel name an=
d=20
can be change) but correct init of L2-cache, FSB, Multiplyer, support o=
f=20
different steppings. There are many thing that patcher makes, and all o=
f=20
them that the manufacturer didn't make for correct support of CPU.
______________________________________
=20
The patched BIOS is able to identify the CPU, but goes no further :-(

That does seem like it should work, unless it didn't go in right for some=
=20
reason.

Ya know, after all that talking I did about being hardware similar, I=20
suppose it's possible there's some 'magic' pin/power/signal somewhere, li=
ke=20
FC-PGA vs PPGA, that just didn't get put on later boards. I wonder if=20
scouring old Intel Slot-1 docs would uncover some rev level change in the=
=20
slot=3D1 wiring from model #1 to the later ones.

Come to think of it, are your BX boards able to supply the Pro's 3.3v Vco=
re?

=20
Has anyone got it to work?





Well, I found something else that doesn't necessarily resolve anything=
=20
but is, nonetheless, rather interesting. This guy's Dell BX motherboar=
d

http://www.psychowire.com/mainboards/slocket.html

reported his new P-III 700 on a slotket as a "Pentium Pro 500."

Apparently there was something in that BIOS that had, even if nothing =

else, at least the string "Pentium Pro" in it.

Maybe you should be looking for the oldest BIOS you can find for those=
=20
boards in the hopes they might have 'Pro' remnants left.
=20
=20
Good suggestion.
=20
The oldest BX BIOS I have archived is 1006 for a P2B-DS (09/15/98), but=
=20
the results are identical - freezes at the same point, patched or not :=
-(
=20
Anyone got a truly *ancient* Asus BX BIOS they'd be willing to send me?=

P2B wrote:
Hamman wrote:

I wouldnt **** about with them too boards too much, BX chipsets can
take upto 1GHz P3's which is somewhat faster than a PPro


BX can do better than that :-) The board was running a Tualatin P3-S @
1575Mhz (150Mhz FSB) before I pulled it to try the PPro.

I agree. I have a Tui Celeron running at 1.6Ghz on a BX here.

I "**** about" for interest's sake. I've explored the high end of BX
capabilities, now curious about the low end...

Me too. These slockets you've found fascinate me. I've always liked the P
Pro, especially the 1MB, 200Mhz version. The first x86 CPU with on-die,
full-speed ECC cache wasn't it?

Interesting project, keep us informed if you feel so inclined. I'd like to
know how you go.
--
~misfit~

~misfit~ wrote:

Me too. These slockets you've found fascinate me. I've always liked the P
Pro, especially the 1MB, 200Mhz version. The first x86 CPU with on-die,
full-speed ECC cache wasn't it?

I built and maintained a bunch of PPro workstations
way back in those olde days of yore. Bleeding edge
x86 workstations by the standards of those days :-)

My recollection is that the PPro L2 cache ran at half speed.

My recollection is also that the PPro L2 was not "on-die".
The cpu core and the L2 were separate chips that were
put side by side into a single cpu package.

I would be happy to concede that my ancient
memories are wrong if someone could provide a link
to a reputable source.



--
Reply to
Do not remove anything.

P2B wrote:
It's definitely starting to look that way - further research shows the
initial KN97-X BIOS didn't support PPro either, Asus released one to go
with the adapters.

Do you have any ancient Asus BX BIOSes? The oldest I have is 1006
(which, surprisingly, boots a P3-S but gets no further along with the
PPro).
Unfortunately, no. I doubt though it would help, since the p2b boards
are quite a bit newer than the p2L97 boards it seems unlikely asus used
the same code which permits the oldest p2l97 bios to run the ppro in the
initial p2b bios.

Roland

Rob Stow wrote:
~misfit~ wrote:

Me too. These slockets you've found fascinate me. I've always liked the P
Pro, especially the 1MB, 200Mhz version. The first x86 CPU with on-die,
full-speed ECC cache wasn't it?


I built and maintained a bunch of PPro workstations
way back in those olde days of yore. Bleeding edge
x86 workstations by the standards of those days :-)

My recollection is that the PPro L2 cache ran at half speed.

My recollection is also that the PPro L2 was not "on-die".
The cpu core and the L2 were separate chips that were
put side by side into a single cpu package.

I would be happy to concede that my ancient
memories are wrong if someone could provide a link
to a reputable source.

Not sure if the L2 is on-die, but it definitely runs at full bus speed:

http://processorfinder.intel.com/scr...sp?sSpec=SL259

Roland Scheidegger wrote:

P2B wrote:

It's definitely starting to look that way - further research shows the
initial KN97-X BIOS didn't support PPro either, Asus released one to
go with the adapters.

Do you have any ancient Asus BX BIOSes? The oldest I have is 1006
(which, surprisingly, boots a P3-S but gets no further along with the
PPro).

Unfortunately, no. I doubt though it would help, since the p2b boards
are quite a bit newer than the p2L97 boards it seems unlikely asus used
the same code which permits the oldest p2l97 bios to run the ppro in the
initial p2b bios.

Sigh... I expect you are correct (pessimist!), but I (optimistically)
think it's worth a try *if* I can find a very early BX bios.

P2B

David Maynard wrote:

P2B wrote:



David Maynard wrote:

David Maynard wrote:

P2B wrote:



David Maynard wrote:

P2B wrote:

I intercepted some old systems on their way to the dumpster
today, and grabbed a couple of interesting items I hadn't seen
befo Asus C-P6S1 Socket-8 to Slot-1 adapters, complete with
PPro 200Mhz/1MB L2 CPUs. They were on Asus 440FX boards, KN97-X
IIRC.

I tried them on a few Asus 440BX boards (with FSB and multiplier
jumpers set appropriately), and they POST but freeze after
announcing the BIOS version - no CPU identification is displayed.
My POST diagnostic card says x0D, which is undocumented but IME
means "BIOS does not support CPU" - so I tried a rom.by patched
BIOS. It got a little further - correctly displays the CPU type
(but not speed) and POST code x0E before freezing.

The 440BX datasheet does not *explicitly* state PPro CPUs are
supported, but quotes like "A Pentium® Pro processor-based system
with the Intel® 440BX AGPset supports 4 GB of addressable memory
space and 64 KB + 3 of addressable I/O space" strongly suggests
they are.

Anyone know if this is a chipset issue, or strictly BIOS? I'd
like to use the processors, but the only spare motherboards
available have 440BX chipsets.

TIA

P2B







I'm not sure which of the 440BX data sheets you've got but

Intel® 440BX AGPset:
82443BX Host Bridge/Controller
Datasheet
April 1998






Yup :-)

makes it pretty clear that BX works with the Pentium Pro although it
doesn't support all it's capabilities (such as PCI ECC and 4 gig
memory).

You'd think it would work because a P-II is basically a repackaged
(slot
cart), fewer features (removed the 'mission critical' ones), less
expensive
(slower cache) Pentium Pro.

Because of that I'd say it's a BIOS problem.






Must be - since it POSTs :-?

Googling for PPro & 440BX doesn't yield much. I don't know of any
BX boards with 'official' support for PPro.





Neither do I and it doesn't surprise me because, as much as that
spec sheet says about Pentium Pro, why would anyone want to? The Pro
isn't a 100Mhz FSB processor and BX was specifically made for the
100Mhz FSB P-IIs.

Nearest thing I found to a Pro on a P-II motherboard, besides the
Asus that slot adapter was made for, is this one

http://www.fonck.nl/computer/asuslxpro.htm



LX chipset... getting warmer :-)


Yeah. That was part of the reason for mentioning it: Not 'strictly' FX.


(note that he mentions only a particular rev BIOS works)



Perhaps not... the 'particular rev' is the very first release for that
board, and he says later versions didn't work :-(


Yes, I know: 'old'.


And then this, sort of, 'PCChips, like, dual socket' (ooo that
hurt.. but then it felt good too g) supermicro board with a socket
8 and Slot-1 both. (That'll confuse the heck out of someone with a
PPGA celeron)

http://www.supermicro.com/newsroom/p...ress050797.cfm



FX chipset - same as the Asus board the adapter was made for.


Right. But both on the same board from a different manufacturer
suggested there's nothing particularly 'special' in the hardware for one
vs the other and that the Asus adapter shouldn't need an 'Asus' board.
Not 'proof', but a suggestion.

Agreed - all available information so far points back to BIOS as the
issue :-(

You hack around in the BIOS. Can't you 'steal' the CPU codes from
one of those and patch it onto the one you want?



Sure I can... but it isn't a microcode problem - POST doesn't get
anywhere near that far,

Although, I beginning to suspect that it isn't just processor
identification, or even microcode, and that the Pro needs the
registers set up a bit differently that the P-II.



My thinking too - I hoped Bios Patcher would help. Quoting from the
manual:

______________________________________
= Patcher can add support of CPU:

- AMD K6/K6-2/K6-III/K6-2+/K6-III+
- Intel Pentium Pro/Pentium II/Pentium III/Celeron
- AMD K7/K75/Athlon/Duron/Athlon 4/Athlon MP/Athlon XP (tested!)
- Intel Pentium 4/Celeron-478 (tested!)

"Support" means not only names of CPUs (which shows with kernel name
and can be change) but correct init of L2-cache, FSB, Multiplyer,
support of different steppings. There are many thing that patcher
makes, and all of them that the manufacturer didn't make for correct
support of CPU.
______________________________________

The patched BIOS is able to identify the CPU, but goes no further :-(


That does seem like it should work, unless it didn't go in right for
some reason.

Ya know, after all that talking I did about being hardware similar, I
suppose it's possible there's some 'magic' pin/power/signal somewhere,
like FC-PGA vs PPGA, that just didn't get put on later boards. I wonder
if scouring old Intel Slot-1 docs would uncover some rev level change in
the slot=1 wiring from model #1 to the later ones.

Come to think of it, are your BX boards able to supply the Pro's 3.3v
Vcore?

Not a problem, they support 1.3v - 3.5v

Has anyone got it to work?






Well, I found something else that doesn't necessarily resolve
anything but is, nonetheless, rather interesting. This guy's Dell BX
motherboard

http://www.psychowire.com/mainboards/slocket.html

reported his new P-III 700 on a slotket as a "Pentium Pro 500."

Apparently there was something in that BIOS that had, even if nothing
else, at least the string "Pentium Pro" in it.

Maybe you should be looking for the oldest BIOS you can find for
those boards in the hopes they might have 'Pro' remnants left.



Good suggestion.

The oldest BX BIOS I have archived is 1006 for a P2B-DS (09/15/98),
but the results are identical - freezes at the same point, patched or
not :-(

Anyone got a truly *ancient* Asus BX BIOS they'd be willing to send me?

Rob Stow schrieb:

My recollection is that the PPro L2 cache ran at half speed.

Nope, full speed. That's why it was so expen$ive and Intel preferred to
use half-speed SRAM chips for the PII. Everything on the same die was
first to be found with the 2nd gen Mobile PIIs (.25µ, 256K L2) of which
the well-known Mendocino Celerons apparently were a scaled-down version
(same CPUID at least).

My recollection is also that the PPro L2 was not "on-die".
The cpu core and the L2 were separate chips that were
put side by side into a single cpu package.

AFAIK that's correct.

I've always wanted to have one of these BIG chips (just for looks),
maybe I'll run across one cheap some day.

Stephan

PS: My P2B-D now finally runs 2 667@500Es - that's what I call a longish
upgrade. Since I was unable to find any S370-DLs, I had to have my 6905
Masters modified, then the 2nd proc took a while to arrive, but now it's
running fine. I had to increase the VCore from 1.30 to 1.35 V, otherwise
performance was too low with both procs loaded. (I guess ye olde cA2
CuMine is pretty much at its limits when run at 500 MHz with 1.30 V
core.) Hey, it's still plenty cool enough...
--
Meine Andere Seite: http://stephan.win31.de/
PC#6: i440BX, 2xP3-500E, 512 MiB, 18+80 GB, R9k AGP 64 MiB, 110W
This is a SCSI-inside, Legacy-plus, TCPA-free computer