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Creative labs dvd-rom



 
 
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  #11  
Old July 9th 04, 08:26 AM
Sharanga Dayananda
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Also, does the DVD still playback?

You could try installing the latest drivers for yer sound. What's yer
soundcard. If the video still plays back, 'tis not yer DVD-ROM, but some
other problem like with a CODEC or sound driver.


"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:lHpHc.17191$WX.285@attbi_s51...
New problem

uninstalled IDE controller and the drivers reinstalled themselves. I got
the DVD to work using windows media player, real player and interactual.
However, after about 5 or 6 minutes the sound went off. I tried starting
the DVD from the middle and the same thing happened.

Any thoughts

"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote in message
...
Yeah, the IDE controller
"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:0ZZGc.25213$JR4.15714@attbi_s54...
Remove it in device manager, right?


"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote in message
...
You could just remove the IDE controller device ( not the primary

or
secondary device, but the parent device ) and reboot. It will redect

the
chipset drivers. That would be easier and quicker and will redetect

yer
hard
disks a nd CD/DVD devices on reboot. You need to do this anyway when

you
change motherboards. Otherwise XP won't boot with the new mobo

without
reinstalling.

"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:XAKGc.35131$MB3.13020@attbi_s04...
would reinstalling XP do the trick?


"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote in

message
news Use a cleaner disc.

If Windows is seeing it as a CD ROM drive, you could try

updating
its
driver
in XP. Some Intel Chipset (INF ) drivers mess up detecting DVD

ROMs
as
CDs
sometimes.

Since Windows did previously detect it as a DVD-ROM, it could

just
be
that
yer IDE/mobo drivers need to be updated. You could try updateing

the
mobo
drivers ( VIA Hyperion/ Intel INF ).

"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:xjmGc.29852$IQ4.23858@attbi_s02...
"knackered"????

Actually since I wrote this, window is only seeing it as a CD

ROM
drive.
If
I use a lens cleaner, do I open it up or just by a DVD

cleaner?


"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote in

message
...
You could try using a lens cleaner on it, it might fix the
problem.
If
not
'tis knackered I suspect. As long as Windows recognises it

as
a
DVD
ROM,
it
should just work.

"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:XCeGc.28535$XM6.28441@attbi_s53...
Got an 8400E DVD-ROM. I am using XP. The device manager
recognizes
it;
it
shows up as a DVD drive; CDs works in it: When I put a

DVD
in,
I
get
not
responding error messages. I have installed WinDVD and
PowerDVD.
and
even
addded some files from Windows (then it worked

temporarily)
Any
ideas?




















  #12  
Old July 9th 04, 04:41 PM
Nate Rosenthal
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The Video works fine.

Celeron 650MHz w/512 RAM 20GB HD and using XP Home Edition

Using a Creative 8400E DVD-ROM

The Audio Controller is 82801 BA/BAM AC'97 7/1/2001 Version 5.1.2535.0

The Creative has the same driver being used

Under Codecs I have: Sipro Lab v 3.02, Windows Media 4.02, Franhaofer MPEG
1.9, Indeo 2.05, Microsoft PCM 5.00

There are also six with extensions of .acm

To update driver, it's asking for disk. Since I don't have the disk, I
assume I need to find this stuff of the Net and download it.

Let me know what other info you need.

Thanks again so far.

"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote in message
...
Could you post yer system specs and the versions of the drivers for sound
and stuff.


"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:lHpHc.17191$WX.285@attbi_s51...
New problem

uninstalled IDE controller and the drivers reinstalled themselves. I

got
the DVD to work using windows media player, real player and interactual.
However, after about 5 or 6 minutes the sound went off. I tried

starting
the DVD from the middle and the same thing happened.

Any thoughts

"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote in message
...
Yeah, the IDE controller
"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:0ZZGc.25213$JR4.15714@attbi_s54...
Remove it in device manager, right?


"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote in message
...
You could just remove the IDE controller device ( not the primary

or
secondary device, but the parent device ) and reboot. It will

redect
the
chipset drivers. That would be easier and quicker and will

redetect
yer
hard
disks a nd CD/DVD devices on reboot. You need to do this anyway

when
you
change motherboards. Otherwise XP won't boot with the new mobo

without
reinstalling.

"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:XAKGc.35131$MB3.13020@attbi_s04...
would reinstalling XP do the trick?


"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote in

message
news Use a cleaner disc.

If Windows is seeing it as a CD ROM drive, you could try

updating
its
driver
in XP. Some Intel Chipset (INF ) drivers mess up detecting DVD

ROMs
as
CDs
sometimes.

Since Windows did previously detect it as a DVD-ROM, it could

just
be
that
yer IDE/mobo drivers need to be updated. You could try

updateing
the
mobo
drivers ( VIA Hyperion/ Intel INF ).

"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:xjmGc.29852$IQ4.23858@attbi_s02...
"knackered"????

Actually since I wrote this, window is only seeing it as a

CD
ROM
drive.
If
I use a lens cleaner, do I open it up or just by a DVD

cleaner?


"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote in
message
...
You could try using a lens cleaner on it, it might fix the
problem.
If
not
'tis knackered I suspect. As long as Windows recognises it

as
a
DVD
ROM,
it
should just work.

"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:XCeGc.28535$XM6.28441@attbi_s53...
Got an 8400E DVD-ROM. I am using XP. The device

manager
recognizes
it;
it
shows up as a DVD drive; CDs works in it: When I put a

DVD
in,
I
get
not
responding error messages. I have installed WinDVD and
PowerDVD.
and
even
addded some files from Windows (then it worked

temporarily)
Any
ideas?






















  #13  
Old July 10th 04, 03:58 AM
Sharanga Dayananda
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

By any chance are you using a demo version of the DVD player apps? Some of
them used to have the audio cutout aftera while. Just thought I'd ask.

Do you know what the model number of yer motherboard is? It seems to me to
be an Intel 810 chipset mobo. Some of these have Intel audio drivers for
Win2k only and not for XP. I'm guessing they should be alright. Also, one
i810 chipset has only Win98 drivers.

I found a driver source which claimed to have a unified binary at:

http://sound-cards.driverfiles.net/p...11,904,7,.html

Use this at yer own risk. Driver support for this mobo seems to have stopped
a while ago. This driver binary actually has some missing files someone'd
posted on taht page.

I think yer best bet is to use a PCI soundcard. You can get a SB Live! 5.1
for around
http://us.creative.com/products/prod...=15&product=50,
if 'tis actually a sound problem that is. Also, some of these mobos,
assuming 'tis actually an i810 don't have drivers from Intel anymore.

Cheers
Sha


"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:01zHc.22936$WX.5387@attbi_s51...
The Video works fine.

Celeron 650MHz w/512 RAM 20GB HD and using XP Home Edition

Using a Creative 8400E DVD-ROM

The Audio Controller is 82801 BA/BAM AC'97 7/1/2001 Version

5.1.2535.0

The Creative has the same driver being used

Under Codecs I have: Sipro Lab v 3.02, Windows Media 4.02, Franhaofer

MPEG
1.9, Indeo 2.05, Microsoft PCM 5.00

There are also six with extensions of .acm

To update driver, it's asking for disk. Since I don't have the disk, I
assume I need to find this stuff of the Net and download it.

Let me know what other info you need.

Thanks again so far.

"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote in message
...
Could you post yer system specs and the versions of the drivers for

sound
and stuff.


"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:lHpHc.17191$WX.285@attbi_s51...
New problem

uninstalled IDE controller and the drivers reinstalled themselves. I

got
the DVD to work using windows media player, real player and

interactual.
However, after about 5 or 6 minutes the sound went off. I tried

starting
the DVD from the middle and the same thing happened.

Any thoughts

"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote in message
...
Yeah, the IDE controller
"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:0ZZGc.25213$JR4.15714@attbi_s54...
Remove it in device manager, right?


"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote in

message
...
You could just remove the IDE controller device ( not the

primary
or
secondary device, but the parent device ) and reboot. It will

redect
the
chipset drivers. That would be easier and quicker and will

redetect
yer
hard
disks a nd CD/DVD devices on reboot. You need to do this anyway

when
you
change motherboards. Otherwise XP won't boot with the new mobo

without
reinstalling.

"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:XAKGc.35131$MB3.13020@attbi_s04...
would reinstalling XP do the trick?


"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote in

message
news Use a cleaner disc.

If Windows is seeing it as a CD ROM drive, you could try

updating
its
driver
in XP. Some Intel Chipset (INF ) drivers mess up detecting

DVD
ROMs
as
CDs
sometimes.

Since Windows did previously detect it as a DVD-ROM, it

could
just
be
that
yer IDE/mobo drivers need to be updated. You could try

updateing
the
mobo
drivers ( VIA Hyperion/ Intel INF ).

"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:xjmGc.29852$IQ4.23858@attbi_s02...
"knackered"????

Actually since I wrote this, window is only seeing it as a

CD
ROM
drive.
If
I use a lens cleaner, do I open it up or just by a DVD

cleaner?


"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote

in
message
...
You could try using a lens cleaner on it, it might fix

the
problem.
If
not
'tis knackered I suspect. As long as Windows recognises

it
as
a
DVD
ROM,
it
should just work.

"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:XCeGc.28535$XM6.28441@attbi_s53...
Got an 8400E DVD-ROM. I am using XP. The device

manager
recognizes
it;
it
shows up as a DVD drive; CDs works in it: When I put

a
DVD
in,
I
get
not
responding error messages. I have installed WinDVD

and
PowerDVD.
and
even
addded some files from Windows (then it worked

temporarily)
Any
ideas?
























  #14  
Old July 10th 04, 05:07 AM
Nate Rosenthal
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I can check. I don't think i'm using a demo of the apps. I'm using Media
Player and Real Player and getting the same thing.
"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote in message
...
By any chance are you using a demo version of the DVD player apps? Some of
them used to have the audio cutout aftera while. Just thought I'd ask.

Do you know what the model number of yer motherboard is? It seems to me to
be an Intel 810 chipset mobo. Some of these have Intel audio drivers for
Win2k only and not for XP. I'm guessing they should be alright. Also, one
i810 chipset has only Win98 drivers.

I found a driver source which claimed to have a unified binary at:

http://sound-cards.driverfiles.net/p...11,904,7,.html

Use this at yer own risk. Driver support for this mobo seems to have

stopped
a while ago. This driver binary actually has some missing files someone'd
posted on taht page.

I think yer best bet is to use a PCI soundcard. You can get a SB Live! 5.1
for around

http://us.creative.com/products/prod...=15&product=50,
if 'tis actually a sound problem that is. Also, some of these mobos,
assuming 'tis actually an i810 don't have drivers from Intel anymore.

Cheers
Sha


"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:01zHc.22936$WX.5387@attbi_s51...
The Video works fine.

Celeron 650MHz w/512 RAM 20GB HD and using XP Home Edition

Using a Creative 8400E DVD-ROM

The Audio Controller is 82801 BA/BAM AC'97 7/1/2001 Version

5.1.2535.0

The Creative has the same driver being used

Under Codecs I have: Sipro Lab v 3.02, Windows Media 4.02, Franhaofer

MPEG
1.9, Indeo 2.05, Microsoft PCM 5.00

There are also six with extensions of .acm

To update driver, it's asking for disk. Since I don't have the disk, I
assume I need to find this stuff of the Net and download it.

Let me know what other info you need.

Thanks again so far.

"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote in message
...
Could you post yer system specs and the versions of the drivers for

sound
and stuff.


"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:lHpHc.17191$WX.285@attbi_s51...
New problem

uninstalled IDE controller and the drivers reinstalled themselves.

I
got
the DVD to work using windows media player, real player and

interactual.
However, after about 5 or 6 minutes the sound went off. I tried

starting
the DVD from the middle and the same thing happened.

Any thoughts

"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote in message
...
Yeah, the IDE controller
"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:0ZZGc.25213$JR4.15714@attbi_s54...
Remove it in device manager, right?


"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote in

message
...
You could just remove the IDE controller device ( not the

primary
or
secondary device, but the parent device ) and reboot. It will

redect
the
chipset drivers. That would be easier and quicker and will

redetect
yer
hard
disks a nd CD/DVD devices on reboot. You need to do this

anyway
when
you
change motherboards. Otherwise XP won't boot with the new mobo
without
reinstalling.

"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:XAKGc.35131$MB3.13020@attbi_s04...
would reinstalling XP do the trick?


"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote in
message
news Use a cleaner disc.

If Windows is seeing it as a CD ROM drive, you could try
updating
its
driver
in XP. Some Intel Chipset (INF ) drivers mess up detecting

DVD
ROMs
as
CDs
sometimes.

Since Windows did previously detect it as a DVD-ROM, it

could
just
be
that
yer IDE/mobo drivers need to be updated. You could try

updateing
the
mobo
drivers ( VIA Hyperion/ Intel INF ).

"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:xjmGc.29852$IQ4.23858@attbi_s02...
"knackered"????

Actually since I wrote this, window is only seeing it as

a
CD
ROM
drive.
If
I use a lens cleaner, do I open it up or just by a DVD
cleaner?


"Sharanga Dayananda"

wrote
in
message
...
You could try using a lens cleaner on it, it might fix

the
problem.
If
not
'tis knackered I suspect. As long as Windows

recognises
it
as
a
DVD
ROM,
it
should just work.

"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:XCeGc.28535$XM6.28441@attbi_s53...
Got an 8400E DVD-ROM. I am using XP. The device

manager
recognizes
it;
it
shows up as a DVD drive; CDs works in it: When I

put
a
DVD
in,
I
get
not
responding error messages. I have installed WinDVD

and
PowerDVD.
and
even
addded some files from Windows (then it worked
temporarily)
Any
ideas?


























  #15  
Old July 10th 04, 12:04 PM
Sharanga Dayananda
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

WinDVD and/or PowerDVD used to have a cut out in their demo versions.

"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:nYJHc.50926$a24.11460@attbi_s03...
I can check. I don't think i'm using a demo of the apps. I'm using Media
Player and Real Player and getting the same thing.
"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote in message
...
By any chance are you using a demo version of the DVD player apps? Some

of
them used to have the audio cutout aftera while. Just thought I'd ask.

Do you know what the model number of yer motherboard is? It seems to me

to
be an Intel 810 chipset mobo. Some of these have Intel audio drivers for
Win2k only and not for XP. I'm guessing they should be alright. Also,

one
i810 chipset has only Win98 drivers.

I found a driver source which claimed to have a unified binary at:

http://sound-cards.driverfiles.net/p...11,904,7,.html

Use this at yer own risk. Driver support for this mobo seems to have

stopped
a while ago. This driver binary actually has some missing files

someone'd
posted on taht page.

I think yer best bet is to use a PCI soundcard. You can get a SB Live!

5.1
for around


http://us.creative.com/products/prod...=15&product=50,
if 'tis actually a sound problem that is. Also, some of these mobos,
assuming 'tis actually an i810 don't have drivers from Intel anymore.

Cheers
Sha


"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:01zHc.22936$WX.5387@attbi_s51...
The Video works fine.

Celeron 650MHz w/512 RAM 20GB HD and using XP Home Edition

Using a Creative 8400E DVD-ROM

The Audio Controller is 82801 BA/BAM AC'97 7/1/2001 Version

5.1.2535.0

The Creative has the same driver being used

Under Codecs I have: Sipro Lab v 3.02, Windows Media 4.02,

Franhaofer
MPEG
1.9, Indeo 2.05, Microsoft PCM 5.00

There are also six with extensions of .acm

To update driver, it's asking for disk. Since I don't have the disk,

I
assume I need to find this stuff of the Net and download it.

Let me know what other info you need.

Thanks again so far.

"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote in message
...
Could you post yer system specs and the versions of the drivers for

sound
and stuff.


"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:lHpHc.17191$WX.285@attbi_s51...
New problem

uninstalled IDE controller and the drivers reinstalled themselves.

I
got
the DVD to work using windows media player, real player and

interactual.
However, after about 5 or 6 minutes the sound went off. I tried
starting
the DVD from the middle and the same thing happened.

Any thoughts

"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote in

message
...
Yeah, the IDE controller
"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:0ZZGc.25213$JR4.15714@attbi_s54...
Remove it in device manager, right?


"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote in

message
...
You could just remove the IDE controller device ( not the

primary
or
secondary device, but the parent device ) and reboot. It

will
redect
the
chipset drivers. That would be easier and quicker and will
redetect
yer
hard
disks a nd CD/DVD devices on reboot. You need to do this

anyway
when
you
change motherboards. Otherwise XP won't boot with the new

mobo
without
reinstalling.

"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:XAKGc.35131$MB3.13020@attbi_s04...
would reinstalling XP do the trick?


"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote

in
message
news Use a cleaner disc.

If Windows is seeing it as a CD ROM drive, you could try
updating
its
driver
in XP. Some Intel Chipset (INF ) drivers mess up

detecting
DVD
ROMs
as
CDs
sometimes.

Since Windows did previously detect it as a DVD-ROM, it

could
just
be
that
yer IDE/mobo drivers need to be updated. You could try
updateing
the
mobo
drivers ( VIA Hyperion/ Intel INF ).

"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:xjmGc.29852$IQ4.23858@attbi_s02...
"knackered"????

Actually since I wrote this, window is only seeing it

as
a
CD
ROM
drive.
If
I use a lens cleaner, do I open it up or just by a DVD
cleaner?


"Sharanga Dayananda"

wrote
in
message
...
You could try using a lens cleaner on it, it might

fix
the
problem.
If
not
'tis knackered I suspect. As long as Windows

recognises
it
as
a
DVD
ROM,
it
should just work.

"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in

message
news:XCeGc.28535$XM6.28441@attbi_s53...
Got an 8400E DVD-ROM. I am using XP. The device
manager
recognizes
it;
it
shows up as a DVD drive; CDs works in it: When I

put
a
DVD
in,
I
get
not
responding error messages. I have installed

WinDVD
and
PowerDVD.
and
even
addded some files from Windows (then it worked
temporarily)
Any
ideas?




























  #16  
Old July 10th 04, 09:29 PM
Nate Rosenthal
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

They still do, but I removed Power DVD and Win DVD from the system. In
fact, I can't even use WinDVD becuase after three days of my 15 day trial it
said it expired.

"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote in message
...
WinDVD and/or PowerDVD used to have a cut out in their demo versions.

"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:nYJHc.50926$a24.11460@attbi_s03...
I can check. I don't think i'm using a demo of the apps. I'm using

Media
Player and Real Player and getting the same thing.
"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote in message
...
By any chance are you using a demo version of the DVD player apps?

Some
of
them used to have the audio cutout aftera while. Just thought I'd

ask.

Do you know what the model number of yer motherboard is? It seems to

me
to
be an Intel 810 chipset mobo. Some of these have Intel audio drivers

for
Win2k only and not for XP. I'm guessing they should be alright. Also,

one
i810 chipset has only Win98 drivers.

I found a driver source which claimed to have a unified binary at:

http://sound-cards.driverfiles.net/p...11,904,7,.html

Use this at yer own risk. Driver support for this mobo seems to have

stopped
a while ago. This driver binary actually has some missing files

someone'd
posted on taht page.

I think yer best bet is to use a PCI soundcard. You can get a SB Live!

5.1
for around



http://us.creative.com/products/prod...=15&product=50,
if 'tis actually a sound problem that is. Also, some of these mobos,
assuming 'tis actually an i810 don't have drivers from Intel anymore.

Cheers
Sha


"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:01zHc.22936$WX.5387@attbi_s51...
The Video works fine.

Celeron 650MHz w/512 RAM 20GB HD and using XP Home Edition

Using a Creative 8400E DVD-ROM

The Audio Controller is 82801 BA/BAM AC'97 7/1/2001 Version
5.1.2535.0

The Creative has the same driver being used

Under Codecs I have: Sipro Lab v 3.02, Windows Media 4.02,

Franhaofer
MPEG
1.9, Indeo 2.05, Microsoft PCM 5.00

There are also six with extensions of .acm

To update driver, it's asking for disk. Since I don't have the

disk,
I
assume I need to find this stuff of the Net and download it.

Let me know what other info you need.

Thanks again so far.

"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote in message
...
Could you post yer system specs and the versions of the drivers

for
sound
and stuff.


"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:lHpHc.17191$WX.285@attbi_s51...
New problem

uninstalled IDE controller and the drivers reinstalled

themselves.
I
got
the DVD to work using windows media player, real player and
interactual.
However, after about 5 or 6 minutes the sound went off. I tried
starting
the DVD from the middle and the same thing happened.

Any thoughts

"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote in

message
...
Yeah, the IDE controller
"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:0ZZGc.25213$JR4.15714@attbi_s54...
Remove it in device manager, right?


"Sharanga Dayananda" wrote in
message
...
You could just remove the IDE controller device ( not the
primary
or
secondary device, but the parent device ) and reboot. It

will
redect
the
chipset drivers. That would be easier and quicker and will
redetect
yer
hard
disks a nd CD/DVD devices on reboot. You need to do this

anyway
when
you
change motherboards. Otherwise XP won't boot with the new

mobo
without
reinstalling.

"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:XAKGc.35131$MB3.13020@attbi_s04...
would reinstalling XP do the trick?


"Sharanga Dayananda"

wrote
in
message
news Use a cleaner disc.

If Windows is seeing it as a CD ROM drive, you could

try
updating
its
driver
in XP. Some Intel Chipset (INF ) drivers mess up

detecting
DVD
ROMs
as
CDs
sometimes.

Since Windows did previously detect it as a DVD-ROM,

it
could
just
be
that
yer IDE/mobo drivers need to be updated. You could try
updateing
the
mobo
drivers ( VIA Hyperion/ Intel INF ).

"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in message
news:xjmGc.29852$IQ4.23858@attbi_s02...
"knackered"????

Actually since I wrote this, window is only seeing

it
as
a
CD
ROM
drive.
If
I use a lens cleaner, do I open it up or just by a

DVD
cleaner?


"Sharanga Dayananda"

wrote
in
message
...
You could try using a lens cleaner on it, it might

fix
the
problem.
If
not
'tis knackered I suspect. As long as Windows

recognises
it
as
a
DVD
ROM,
it
should just work.

"Nate Rosenthal" wrote in

message
news:XCeGc.28535$XM6.28441@attbi_s53...
Got an 8400E DVD-ROM. I am using XP. The

device
manager
recognizes
it;
it
shows up as a DVD drive; CDs works in it: When

I
put
a
DVD
in,
I
get
not
responding error messages. I have installed

WinDVD
and
PowerDVD.
and
even
addded some files from Windows (then it worked
temporarily)
Any
ideas?






























 




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