Strange W8.1 boot problem

Rebel1 wrote:
Problem doing this. If I type cmd into the Start/Run window, the *only*
thing returned is this prompt: c:\users\PC User. Right-clicking on it
doesn't offer the option to "Run as Administrator".

If I go to the W8 tiled mode (instead of Classic Shell) and type cmd in
the Search box, the only thing returned is a different prompt:
C:\windows\system32. Right-clicking again does not offer the option you
wanted.

I'm stuck.

R1

No you're not.

Help is on the way.

*******

Go back to Desktop.

Double click the Trash can. That's how I open Explorer :-)

When Explorer appears, select the C: drive,
then navigate to C:\Windows\System32. Scroll way down,
until you see "cmd.exe" in the list. Sorting in
alphabetical order will help (Sort by Name). Right
click on "cmd.exe" and "Run as Administrator" should
be in the menu.

I haven't a clue what has befallen your Start window,
that it should return such bogus things.

If you can get cmd.exe running, then "devmgmt.msc"
starts device manager, "diskmgmt.msc" starts
Disk Management, "control userpasswords2" opens
a user account window. At least a few facilities
can be accessed from the command line.

And a lot of regular programs, can be started
and run, by visiting the two Program Files folders
and navigating around in there.

One problem with Start, is it includes searches for
Programs (which is failing for you), as well as
searching for files. Once you set up your Indexing
Options and select a lot of data areas, you'll get
a lot more crap at the bottom of your Start menu
returned results. In the Indexing Options control
panel, you can tell the machine to rebuild the index.
But I don't think that affects how Programs are found.
Which is your problem right now.

*******

While I trundle off and look for why this is happening
to you, you could try the following.

1) Use "control userpasswords2" when you get that
"cmd.exe" thing running.

2) Add a new user account. It will prompt you to prepare
a Microsoft Account, but you can tease it into doing
a Local Account instead. What I'm trying to do here, is
create an empty profile for testing. Set a password on it etc.

3) While you're in userpasswords2, you can also navigate to
Control Panels near the top, navigate down to the regular
User Accounts thing and do any other odds and ends. You
might want to make that new account a member of Adminstrators
group for example, to make the account as powerful as
the initial installation account is.

4) Now, sign out as "You" and sign in as "New Guy". Test the
Start thing again. Programs which are installed for "All Users"
should be returned when searched for in Start.

I'll see if I can find anything about busted Start...

Paul

Rebel1 wrote:
Problem doing this. If I type cmd into the Start/Run window, the *only*
thing returned is this prompt: c:\users\PC User. Right-clicking on it
doesn't offer the option to "Run as Administrator".

If I go to the W8 tiled mode (instead of Classic Shell) and type cmd in
the Search box, the only thing returned is a different prompt:
C:\windows\system32. Right-clicking again does not offer the option you
wanted.

I'm stuck.

R1

The appearance of the Start and what is in it, changes
from one release to the next. I'm pretty
well patched up to date on the kitchen computer,
and if I open Start (using the Windows key if necessary),
there is a "down arrow" symbol in the lower left
corner. If you were not able to click it for some reason,
the "tab" key may cause it to be highlighted, followed by
hitting the "return" key to make it execute.

Anyway, if you hit the down arrow, you should see the
screen replaced by a window full of app icons. If the mouse
won't navigate it, the cursor keys can make the selection
move left-right-up-down. If you keep heading to the left, you
might even eventually see a "cmd" icon :-)

Paul

Paul,

After navigating to c:\windows\system32, I right-clicked on cmd.exe, and
selected Run as Administrator. When the prompt appeared, I entered
powercfg -h-off. Now it boots to the desktop from an cold start, both
with just a single hard drive and even after I reconnected the second
drive.

As far as I'm concerned, the problem is solved. Any problem leaving
things as they are without going further and doing the other things you
suggest?

Many thanks for your outstanding help.

R1




On 8/25/2014 11:33 PM, Paul wrote:
Rebel1 wrote:
Problem doing this. If I type cmd into the Start/Run window, the
*only* thing returned is this prompt: c:\users\PC User. Right-clicking
on it doesn't offer the option to "Run as Administrator".

If I go to the W8 tiled mode (instead of Classic Shell) and type cmd
in the Search box, the only thing returned is a different prompt:
C:\windows\system32. Right-clicking again does not offer the option
you wanted.

I'm stuck.

R1

No you're not.

Help is on the way.

*******

Go back to Desktop.

Double click the Trash can. That's how I open Explorer :-)

When Explorer appears, select the C: drive,
then navigate to C:\Windows\System32. Scroll way down,
until you see "cmd.exe" in the list. Sorting in
alphabetical order will help (Sort by Name). Right
click on "cmd.exe" and "Run as Administrator" should
be in the menu.

I haven't a clue what has befallen your Start window,
that it should return such bogus things.

If you can get cmd.exe running, then "devmgmt.msc"
starts device manager, "diskmgmt.msc" starts
Disk Management, "control userpasswords2" opens
a user account window. At least a few facilities
can be accessed from the command line.

And a lot of regular programs, can be started
and run, by visiting the two Program Files folders
and navigating around in there.

One problem with Start, is it includes searches for
Programs (which is failing for you), as well as
searching for files. Once you set up your Indexing
Options and select a lot of data areas, you'll get
a lot more crap at the bottom of your Start menu
returned results. In the Indexing Options control
panel, you can tell the machine to rebuild the index.
But I don't think that affects how Programs are found.
Which is your problem right now.

*******

While I trundle off and look for why this is happening
to you, you could try the following.

1) Use "control userpasswords2" when you get that
"cmd.exe" thing running.

2) Add a new user account. It will prompt you to prepare
a Microsoft Account, but you can tease it into doing
a Local Account instead. What I'm trying to do here, is
create an empty profile for testing. Set a password on it etc.

3) While you're in userpasswords2, you can also navigate to
Control Panels near the top, navigate down to the regular
User Accounts thing and do any other odds and ends. You
might want to make that new account a member of Adminstrators
group for example, to make the account as powerful as
the initial installation account is.

4) Now, sign out as "You" and sign in as "New Guy". Test the
Start thing again. Programs which are installed for "All Users"
should be returned when searched for in Start.

I'll see if I can find anything about busted Start...

Paul

Rebel1 wrote:
Problem doing this. If I type cmd into the Start/Run window, the *only*
thing returned is this prompt: c:\users\PC User. Right-clicking on it
doesn't offer the option to "Run as Administrator".

If I go to the W8 tiled mode (instead of Classic Shell) and type cmd in
the Search box, the only thing returned is a different prompt:
C:\windows\system32. Right-clicking again does not offer the option you
wanted.

I'm stuck.

R1

There is a selector near the upper right, that selects "Files",
"Apps", "Everything". It's supposed to default to "Everything"
but you can adjust it. It sounds like, for some reason, it
is attempting to search for files or something. Only, normally,
the Search Indexer (controlled by Indexing Options), doesn't
index System folders. Unless you set it that way. Like, right
now, the kitchen PC hasn't had the Indexer Options adjusted
at all, and the search domain is very small. It probably
just does my download folder, and personal files. I normally
set it much wider than that, but haven't had the time to fiddle
with that bit first.

I still have other problems to solve on that box, and just
discovered a new problem. My Seamonkey browser can't download
properly. First time that's ever happened. The front end, the
end that talks to the network, works fine. But Explorer doesn't
see the file size increase. It just stops at some point. If
you don't touch it, a truncated and damaged file results.
If you use the Seamonkey "Pause" button in the Downloads
dialog, that forces a "flush" to the file system, and then
the file size is correct. But you have to keep toggling the
Pause, and it's tricky to toggle it and get the entire file.
I have no idea what the problem is there, but it's plenty weird.

OK, some stupid Intel MEI browser plugin was doing that.
I only installed the file, to clean up Device Manager,
not knowing it was installing stuff in my browser. Grrr. Fixed.

BTW - here is a screen shot of the Start Screen, after using
the down arrow, and scrolling right horizontally. And then
you can see my CMD icon. Not something I normally use, but
an option if the Search box is acting up.

http://i60.tinypic.com/2njblm0.jpg

Paul

Rebel1 wrote:
Paul,

After navigating to c:\windows\system32, I right-clicked on cmd.exe, and
selected Run as Administrator. When the prompt appeared, I entered
powercfg -h-off. Now it boots to the desktop from an cold start, both
with just a single hard drive and even after I reconnected the second
drive.

As far as I'm concerned, the problem is solved. Any problem leaving
things as they are without going further and doing the other things you
suggest?

Many thanks for your outstanding help.

R1

You only have to dig deeper, if you want a working Hibernation function :-)

I would term this a half-ass workaround, rather than a solution.

Paul

On Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:50:48 -0400, Rebel1
wrote:

Easier said than done. This computer originally had XP. Last year, MS
offered W8 for $39 and I took advantage of the offer. All the updating
was done via the internet, so I don't have any kind of disc for
repairing, restoring, reinstalling, etc.

OK - got'ca. $39 for 8 and the W8.1 was free (for awhile), or back
when MS first had it's "Abandon XP Campaign" - a $39 added incentive
makes more sense. . .

Now that it's back to normal - $119 whether for the 8.0 to 8.1 (still
free), or as upgrade or the actual 8.1 "Core" install. . .Win8.1 Pro's
more, twice as much.

What's different is Microsoft pulled your offer altogether and instead
is saying - it wasn't ever supposed to actually have happened, a
Windows 8.X over XP.

That XP users should now buy the DVD install and forget anything about
XP, except what you know about backing up independent of Microsoft's
efforts on your behalf (as a formal part of the install).

The install was done by an employee of PC Warehouse; I'm satisfied with
what he did. Now I have to try what Paul suggested at 10:13.


Puts a different spin on it now - "flakey" being more perhaps
pertinent. ...So how, again, is you're going from a $39 XP upgrade
incentive, in 32-bit flavored system, getting to an $119
64-bit...someone installed. Sounds to me, the guy at the computer
store, PC Warehouse, maybe attempting to correct that someone's
install.

But, between getting another HDD, two installs, the PC Warehouse
suggesting to add a third - man, this is starting to sound like the
film Dumb and Dumber. Again, forgive me.

What needs be addressed is how from your first post that "I had
someone do a clean install of Windows 8.1" -- in fact that someone did
the install.

When **I** do an install I spend some time first, working with it
awhile make sure its all functional and nothing untoward jumps up and
bites me in the butt. That's when the first token binary backup
starts. Then I start studying the IT pros for hardening up a system.
And I'm never online, my modem's power is pulled when working in
backups.

Sounds to me you got butt-bitten by that someone's install. Buying
HDDs for immediate correction purposes, (sure, it'll come to good use
later, too), **paying** PC Warehouse people, (nahhhh -- never heard of
the outfit in my area of the woods). . .stop. I never pay nobody
nothing. Learn it and do it myself. Paying Microsoft the same money
for an W8.1 install DVD sounds better than what you paid a technician
not. And, you still may be going in circles, spinning wheels over what
that initial "someone" incompotently attempted (inasmuch for a "clean"
64-bit 8.1 install). If that PC Warehouse technician had a Damn Good
MS Certification on the wall - he might have found the offending
install error and corrected it, or effectively done/corrected the
install cleanly so it also boots cleanly, the way it of course should.

Moving things around on yet another, 3rd HDD. . .just saying, in case
you feel anything wet on your leg -- he may be ****ing down yours.

On Tue, 26 Aug 2014 01:09:31 -0400, Flasherly
wrote:

Moving things around on yet another, 3rd HDD. . .just saying, in case
you feel anything wet on your leg -- he may be ****ing down yours.

Thinking back, it was creepy to bring up an install of W7, last week,
and see a hibernation file on the root OS partition. Got rid of it
fast though, fast enough for obviously not having offhand recalled it
now. I've never used hibernation. Good deal you're all straight now.
Next, figure how to test a restore routine, how to get back to where
you like it in case things get messed up again -- or get a proper
install disc.

I run restorations at least weekly, if not more. I like it squeaky
clean -- the slightest hint of program deviation, anything different
and unexpected, and I immediately blast the whole OS into oblivion
with a fresh sector rewrite.

Flasherly,

I admire your spirit of self-reliance; Rush Limbaugh would love you. At
one time, I, with my two U of Mich bachelors degrees in engineering, was
like you, having to know the intimate details of how things worked.
(Once a friend said I wasn't satisfied with merely buying a piece of
wood; I also had to know how the tree grew.) Now, at age 76, I still
have a streak of independence in me, but I'm ready to gloss over the
detailed inner workings of many things and get on with the bigger
project. It's easier to pay someone $85 for the install rather than buy
a more expensive MS W8 disc and do it myself.

Tech #1 at PC Warehouse did a clean install from whatever disc he used
onto a virgin WD 1TB drive. He used the product key I got from the
internet XP-to-W8 install; didn't matter that the key was for the 32-bit
version and he was installing 64 bits. The owner just insisted that I
had a legitimate key, which I did.

When they returned the computer to me on August 21, Tech #1 showed me it
booted properly with both hard drives powered. When I got home, I
noticed the problem and fiddled with the Reset routine to live with it.
When I brought the computer back yesterday, Aug 25, to discuss the
booting problem, a different tech made the suggestion about using a
temporary third drive store my data, reformatting the second drive, and
copying the data from the third drive back to the second one (and then
removing the third drive) to ensure a single copy of W8 was in my
computer. Made sense until I found the problem existed even with drive 2
unpowered.

Today, as I think back to yesterday, I noted that Tech #2 always shut
the computer off by pressing the power switch, not by the lengthier
Start/Shut down routine. Assuming Tech #1 and the other techs also work
this way, it would explain why the problem didn't show up in the store.

It doesn't explain why I had to follow Paul's suggestion (8/25, 10:13
p.m.) about using the powercfg -h- off command. The PC Warehouse is
closed on Tuesdays; tomorrow I'll bring my findings to them, to expand
their "lessons learned" database of knowledge.

I'm still in the awkward position of not having a bootable disc in case
of future problems.

Paul postings dwelled on the hibernate mode, but I never use it.

Thanks to all for your help.

R1









On 8/26/2014 1:09 AM, Flasherly wrote:
On Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:50:48 -0400, Rebel1
wrote:

Easier said than done. This computer originally had XP. Last year, MS
offered W8 for $39 and I took advantage of the offer. All the updating
was done via the internet, so I don't have any kind of disc for
repairing, restoring, reinstalling, etc.

OK - got'ca. $39 for 8 and the W8.1 was free (for awhile), or back
when MS first had it's "Abandon XP Campaign" - a $39 added incentive
makes more sense. . .

Now that it's back to normal - $119 whether for the 8.0 to 8.1 (still
free), or as upgrade or the actual 8.1 "Core" install. . .Win8.1 Pro's
more, twice as much.

What's different is Microsoft pulled your offer altogether and instead
is saying - it wasn't ever supposed to actually have happened, a
Windows 8.X over XP.

That XP users should now buy the DVD install and forget anything about
XP, except what you know about backing up independent of Microsoft's
efforts on your behalf (as a formal part of the install).

The install was done by an employee of PC Warehouse; I'm satisfied with
what he did. Now I have to try what Paul suggested at 10:13.


Puts a different spin on it now - "flakey" being more perhaps
pertinent. ...So how, again, is you're going from a $39 XP upgrade
incentive, in 32-bit flavored system, getting to an $119
64-bit...someone installed. Sounds to me, the guy at the computer
store, PC Warehouse, maybe attempting to correct that someone's
install.

But, between getting another HDD, two installs, the PC Warehouse
suggesting to add a third - man, this is starting to sound like the
film Dumb and Dumber. Again, forgive me.

What needs be addressed is how from your first post that "I had
someone do a clean install of Windows 8.1" -- in fact that someone did
the install.

When **I** do an install I spend some time first, working with it
awhile make sure its all functional and nothing untoward jumps up and
bites me in the butt. That's when the first token binary backup
starts. Then I start studying the IT pros for hardening up a system.
And I'm never online, my modem's power is pulled when working in
backups.

Sounds to me you got butt-bitten by that someone's install. Buying
HDDs for immediate correction purposes, (sure, it'll come to good use
later, too), **paying** PC Warehouse people, (nahhhh -- never heard of
the outfit in my area of the woods). . .stop. I never pay nobody
nothing. Learn it and do it myself. Paying Microsoft the same money
for an W8.1 install DVD sounds better than what you paid a technician
not. And, you still may be going in circles, spinning wheels over what
that initial "someone" incompotently attempted (inasmuch for a "clean"
64-bit 8.1 install). If that PC Warehouse technician had a Damn Good
MS Certification on the wall - he might have found the offending
install error and corrected it, or effectively done/corrected the
install cleanly so it also boots cleanly, the way it of course should.

Moving things around on yet another, 3rd HDD. . .just saying, in case
you feel anything wet on your leg -- he may be ****ing down yours.

Paul,

It was never my intent to have more than one OS. I was using the BIOS
settings to select which drive boots simply to try to identify the
problem of not being able to boot to the desktop using the new hard
drive with its newly installed W8.1 Pro.

I never use the hibernate mode. When I'm through for the day, I power
down via the "official" Start/Shut down procedure. As I now know, this
is only procedure that will cause the startup problem next time I boot.

Thanks again for your insights.

R1


On 8/25/2014 6:36 PM, Paul wrote:
Rebel1 wrote:
I've been having various oddball problems with W8.1, 32 bits. So I
bought a new hard drive and had someone do a clean install of W8.1, 64
bits. The computer now has two hard drives, with the second one having
the "flaky" version of W8.1.

I have the BIOS set to boot from the new one. If I do a cold start, I
can't get to the desktop. I get to the point where the blue trapezoid
appears on the screen, but everything stops there. If I press Reset,
it boots normally to the desktop. So the problem is only if booting
from a cold start.

Both drives are SATA, with the new one plugged into the SATA 1 socket
and the other one in the SATA 2 socket. If I set the BIOS to boot from
the old drive, it boots normally, even from a cold start, to the desktop.

The guy at the computer store suggested that I transfer the DATA from
the second drive onto a third drive, format the second drive to remove
all traces of the original W8.1, then copy the DATA back from the
third drive to the second on and remove the third drive. That
certainly would leave me with just one version of W8.1, the newly
installed one. Seems a little extreme, but straight forward and time
consuming.

Any other suggestions for dealing with the original problem of not
getting to the desktop from a cold start?

Thanks,

R1

I don't think I can give a "shoot from the hip" answer as to what is wrong.

All that I'll advise is, when installing an OS, disconnect
all other drives, except the drive that is getting the new OS.

This prevents the boot manager from ending up on the wrong drive.

All OSes should be installed with the same BIOS settings present
for all of them. If one OS is booting from an AHCI disk, you
want the other OSes to boot from AHCI as well. That way, no clumsy
fiddling with the BIOS all the time, is needed.

If you later want to tie all the OSes, to the one boot manager,
there are ways to do that. At one time, EasyBCD was free, and you
could use that. But the Microsoft bcdedit now has enough
documentation, that you can do it with Microsoft tools too.

If you are trying to set up a dual boot scenario, where the
new OS will manage booting for the old OS, then by all means
let the new OS "see" the old one. It's just a lot easier though,
and safer, to "stitch" them together with bcdedit or bootrec /rebuild,
later.

If you're going to let the new OS see the old OS, make a backup
of the old OS, before pushing the install button. For safety.
Later, if the install goes to hell, you have easy options.

*******

There are a small number of VIA chipsets and one VIA based PCI
card for SATA, which have problems with SATA II. Seagate drives
have Force150 jumper to fix that (for older Seagate SATA drives).
But taking a SATA III drive, and attempting to use Force150 won't
work, because SATA III drives only jumper down to SATA II and
not to SATA I rates. Which is dumb, but that's life. The only other
hardware to have a problem with SATA, is a certain Macintosh which
cannot tolerate drives using Spread Spectrum. That is the only
case I know of, where you need to use a jumper on the second
position on a Seagate drive. Hitachi drives, you have to use
their Feature Tool, as the drives have no jumpers. Don't know
about the rest. I've never needed to read about the jumpers
on my WD SATA drives.

As long as your motherboard doesn't have a VIA chipset, chances
are good it isn't hardware.

SATA III was supposed to be covered by SATA II cabling, but
I notice the marketing folks insist on making "special SATA III
cables". I don't know what is so special about them. Their
external dimensions are the same, which means it is pretty hard
to change the fabrication. If you bend a SATA cable to the point
that the plastic becomes kinked, that tan throw off the
impedance and increase the read error rate (as detected by
cable CRC).

*******

With the good and bad hard drives connected, you could
use SeaTools for DOS or similar, to do basic disk testing.
As a means of verifying it isn't a low level problem, and
that the problem really is with the boot setup and the two
involved OSes. I wouldn't place a lot of emphasis on this
idea, since I've had a devil of a time getting that stuff
to run. It's not exactly Plug and Play software, and a lot
of prayer and animal sacrifice is needed. Both Seagate and
WD offer diagnostics, which test their own brand of disks.

Have fun,
Paul

On Tue, 26 Aug 2014 08:13:47 -0400, Rebel1
wrote:

Flasherly,

I admire your spirit of self-reliance; Rush Limbaugh would love you. At
one time, I, with my two U of Mich bachelors degrees in engineering, was
like you, having to know the intimate details of how things worked.
(Once a friend said I wasn't satisfied with merely buying a piece of
wood; I also had to know how the tree grew.) Now, at age 76, I still
have a streak of independence in me, but I'm ready to gloss over the
detailed inner workings of many things and get on with the bigger
project.

A chemistry professor once tried also to tell me that;- youngest and
brightest and with accolades for his degree of intense specialty, none
wouldn't have been amiss in respect I harbored within for him.

It's easier to pay someone $85 for the install rather than buy
a more expensive MS W8 disc and do it myself.

I still disagree with you in principle, that that $85 in the
technicians pocket ought compensate, for the whole, a richer provision
to stand by your esteemed faculties, were it to recompense by way of
the Windows 8.1 install DVD additionally for another approximate $39;-
funny how that initial sum comes around.

But I do tend digress. It must be in my genes. My sister, it is true,
I observe also somewhat unknowingly has it -- in the form of a "know
it all," as she hasn't pursued a broader formal education;- even my
very own father advised me I'd stop to "argue with a stop sign."

And why I never quite bothered to sum a sense of accredited knowledge,
instead choosing a rambling path over three universities in as many
fields of elective endeavors irrespective of curriculum or subsequent
degree.



Tech #1 at PC Warehouse did a clean install from whatever disc he used
onto a virgin WD 1TB drive. He used the product key I got from the
internet XP-to-W8 install; didn't matter that the key was for the 32-bit
version and he was installing 64 bits. The owner just insisted that I
had a legitimate key, which I did.

When they returned the computer to me on August 21, Tech #1 showed me it
booted properly with both hard drives powered. When I got home, I
noticed the problem and fiddled with the Reset routine to live with it.
When I brought the computer back yesterday, Aug 25, to discuss the
booting problem, a different tech made the suggestion about using a
temporary third drive store my data, reformatting the second drive, and
copying the data from the third drive back to the second one (and then
removing the third drive) to ensure a single copy of W8 was in my
computer. Made sense until I found the problem existed even with drive 2
unpowered.

Today, as I think back to yesterday, I noted that Tech #2 always shut
the computer off by pressing the power switch, not by the lengthier
Start/Shut down routine. Assuming Tech #1 and the other techs also work
this way, it would explain why the problem didn't show up in the store.

I've only just installed W7, myself, but did note the three methods of
shutting down (one of which would be hibernation) seem to me more
"embedded" than of formerly XP;- moreover with 8.1, as you say, I can
imagine since a reception I've heard rumors of Microsoft dispensing
with the Start Menu.

It doesn't explain why I had to follow Paul's suggestion (8/25, 10:13
p.m.) about using the powercfg -h- off command. The PC Warehouse is
closed on Tuesdays; tomorrow I'll bring my findings to them, to expand
their "lessons learned" database of knowledge.

I had the impression Paul had hit upon, provided you a workable
solution. Although I've never placed much tow in a consumer-oriented
workplace, I'll admit Rebel1, at least what I first suspect is at its
first front, among capitalistic forays of immediacy and profiteering;-
anything involving a qualified, residing technical is as much and
often matter of scrutiny, assessment and study;- [For] I'll as easily
walk away, without looking back, when their presiding technical
interests are no less a shallow facade and [mis]representative
appearance of technopreneurialism.

I'm still in the awkward position of not having a bootable disc in case
of future problems.

Ah! Hah! . . .

Paul postings dwelled on the hibernate mode, but I never use it.
Thanks to all for your help.

Paul suggestion is good enough, observant and perhaps pertinent (among
many liklihoods appertaining).

As in the above, being somewhat a perfectionist - (and there's
actually a study to qualify what I read: the more a person knows of
computing, the more personal becomes their computer) - I could never
let another fiddle-fart with mine.

And I'm as good as shot, a sitting duck in the water, without my own
disc of the installation - proper, for a damn-straight clean as a
whistle install! The job's only as good as the tools used to get it
done, a commander as good as his lieutenants.