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#11
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Can high voltage from power supply damage harddrive?
In message JD was
claimed to have wrote: Was a surge protector used for this computer? If not, the user was a fool. Electric supplies are always oscillating up and down and need taming by the surge protector. Surge protectors really aren't needed for modern computers, the PSU should have far more capable surge protection built-in as part of it's design. More often than not a surge protector won't catch a surge in time anyway, although it will usually do a decent enough job of preventing a fire if some connected device shorts out. |
#12
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Can high voltage from power supply damage harddrive?
In message mm
was claimed to have wrote: So, if I could get an identical drive, I could replace the circuit board myself??? I have 40 years part-time experience in electronic repairs including soldering. Maybe. Until recently this was usually possible if you could get an absolutely identical drive, not only the model number but the software version too in some cases. However, modern drives are apparently storing some data on the controller circuitry itself that makes this type of swap out more difficult. Still, if the data is worth the gamble, and if it's a bit of an older drive you might find replacements on eBay cheap, so it's worth trying. |
#13
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Can high voltage from power supply damage harddrive?
mm wrote:
I just talked to my friend who gave me the Dell computer, and he said that his repair guy told him the reason his harddrive failed may (likely?) have been a surge or something coming from the power supply. Is this a cause of harddrive failure? Yes, it can happen. A common cause? Nope. A conceivable cause but really a guess by the repairman. Depends on whether he worked out that the rails to the hard drive had been over voltaged like with some visible damage on the drive logic card. FWIW, the repairman sent the HD somewhere to get the data off, but it was too dead or something to do that, and now they want 1500 to 3500 dollars to do it the hard way. FWIW, the mobo still seems good, although w/o the harddrive, it just displays a few lines and displays a one-line message about no SATA drive, press f2 to do this, f4 to do that. Could I turn on the computer and connect a voltmeter to the hardrive power connector** and watch the needle for a few hours (while I do other things), Yes, but that may not prove anything, some power supply glitches can be too short term to see on a meter. or do I have to watch for weeks to get a good idea? You really need to have a more fancy multimeter that records the peaks seen on the rails. Even then it doesnt prove the power supply isnt faulty, it can happen only very rarely, with a mains surge etc. **Or do another connector on the same power supply, since the SATA power connector looks very small? Yes, its fine to use one of the other molex power connectors thats easier to connect the meter probe to. |
#14
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Can high voltage from power supply damage harddrive?
mm wrote:
On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 21:18:59 -0400, Yousuf Khan wrote: On 28/08/2010 8:49 PM, mm wrote: I just talked to my friend who gave me the Dell computer, and he said that his repair guy told him the reason his harddrive failed may (likely?) have been a surge or something coming from the power supply. Is this a cause of harddrive failure? That's possible, but a more likely cause is the exact opposite situation, where there wasn't enough power coming through the power supply at the right moment. A common cause? A conceivable cause but really a guess by the repairman. It is a guess, plain and simple. FWIW, the repairman sent the HD somewhere to get the data off, but it was too dead or something to do that, and now they want 1500 to 3500 dollars to do it the hard way. Yes, what he's describing is that the onboard electronics of the drive are fried. But the data might still be on the mechanical portion of the hard drive, so a circuit board replacement should do the trick to get the data again. However, the circuit board replacement costs thousands of dollars, as he's saying. So, if I could get an identical drive, I could replace the circuit board myself??? Yes. But the recovery operation should have tried that. I have 40 years part-time experience in electronic repairs including soldering. FTR I don't have the drive, but I could get it from my friend. FWIW, the mobo still seems good, although w/o the harddrive, it just displays a few lines and displays a one-line message about no SATA drive, press f2 to do this, f4 to do that. Could I turn on the computer and connect a voltmeter to the hardrive power connector** and watch the needle for a few hours (while I do other things), or do I have to watch for weeks to get a good idea? **Or do another connector on the same power supply, since the SATA power connector looks very small? I assume that the repairman already may have tried putting the SATA drive into another system. But you could try it yourself and put it into your own system to see if it works there. Here, I just mean that to test the power supply, I could watch the voltage on a voltmeter, with a needle, to see if it varies. That wont see the shortest spikes and you wont be watching it when the mains surges either. |
#15
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Can high voltage from power supply damage harddrive?
On 28/08/2010 10:40 PM, mm wrote:
On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 21:18:59 -0400, Yousuf Khan wrote: On 28/08/2010 8:49 PM, mm wrote: I just talked to my friend who gave me the Dell computer, and he said that his repair guy told him the reason his harddrive failed may (likely?) have been a surge or something coming from the power supply. Is this a cause of harddrive failure? That's possible, but a more likely cause is the exact opposite situation, where there wasn't enough power coming through the power supply at the right moment. A common cause? A conceivable cause but really a guess by the repairman. It is a guess, plain and simple. FWIW, the repairman sent the HD somewhere to get the data off, but it was too dead or something to do that, and now they want 1500 to 3500 dollars to do it the hard way. Yes, what he's describing is that the onboard electronics of the drive are fried. But the data might still be on the mechanical portion of the hard drive, so a circuit board replacement should do the trick to get the data again. However, the circuit board replacement costs thousands of dollars, as he's saying. So, if I could get an identical drive, I could replace the circuit board myself??? I have 40 years part-time experience in electronic repairs including soldering. Yes, that's conceivable. But remember if it doesn't work, you got two dead drives instead. FWIW, the mobo still seems good, although w/o the harddrive, it just displays a few lines and displays a one-line message about no SATA drive, press f2 to do this, f4 to do that. Could I turn on the computer and connect a voltmeter to the hardrive power connector** and watch the needle for a few hours (while I do other things), or do I have to watch for weeks to get a good idea? **Or do another connector on the same power supply, since the SATA power connector looks very small? I assume that the repairman already may have tried putting the SATA drive into another system. But you could try it yourself and put it into your own system to see if it works there. Here, I just mean that to test the power supply, I could watch the voltage on a voltmeter, with a needle, to see if it varies. Not worth the effort, the voltage will vary, without much doubt. But what you can learn from watching those variations is dubious. Whatever caused that drive to fail has long since passed by. Yousuf Khan |
#16
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Can high voltage from power supply damage harddrive?
On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 20:49:19 -0400, mm put
finger to keyboard and composed: I just talked to my friend who gave me the Dell computer, and he said that his repair guy told him the reason his harddrive failed may (likely?) have been a surge or something coming from the power supply. Is this a cause of harddrive failure? A common cause? Yes, it is a very common cause, especially in external enclosures where people apply a 19V - 20V laptop power adapter in place of the original 12V supply. In most cases there is an easy no-cost DIY fix. It involves using a pair of flush cutters to remove a shorted TVS (transient voltage suppression) diode. These articles should help you identify the various components: HDD from inside Main parts: http://hddscan.com/doc/HDD_from_inside.html WD Pc easy Faultdiagnostic troubleshooting must try it ... http://forum.hddguru.com/easy-faultd...ry-t12319.html My notes may also help: http://www.users.on.net/~fzabkar/HDD/HDD_ICs.txt http://www.users.on.net/~fzabkar/HDD/TVS_diodes.txt If you upload a detailed photo of the component side of the drive's PCB, maybe I could help you locate the faulty component. That said, if the drive spins up, then the PCB is probably OK. The fault will instead be inside the HDA. If you wish to replace the TVS diode, then you can use an SMBJ12A in place of the 12V diode, and an SMAJ5.0A in place of the 5V diode. Both parts are available from Farnell, Mouser, Digikey. Be aware that early model drives are not protected by TVS diodes. Also, when such a diode is present, there will sometimes be a fuse (Samsung), or zero-ohm resistor (WD), or inductor (Seagate), or polyswitch (Hitachi) in series with the supply. These often go open-circuit and will need to be bridged with a short piece of wire. Alternatively, you could use a 2A smt fuse: Littelfuse Surface Mount Fuses, N = 2A, S = 4A: http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/48294.pdf - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. |
#17
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Can high voltage from power supply damage harddrive?
On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 22:40:18 -0400, mm put
finger to keyboard and composed: So, if I could get an identical drive, I could replace the circuit board myself??? I have 40 years part-time experience in electronic repairs including soldering. In modern drives, you will need to transplant the 8-pin serial EEPROM chip, or its contents, from patient to donor. This chip stores unique, drive specific calibration data. Identical drives manufactured in the same factory on the same day will have different ROM contents. In particular, there are "adaptive" data for each head. The following article explains why drives have adaptive data. HDD from inside: Tracks and Zones. How hard it can be? http://hddscan.com/doc/HDD_Tracks_and_Zones.html Essentially the reason is that no two heads are physically identical. HD manufacturers try to fit as much data as possible onto each platter. To do this, they take advantage of any head that performs better than the average. For example, some heads will have a better frequency response than others, which means that you can cram more bits on each track. This technique is called Variable Bits Per Inch (VBPI). Giant magnetorestive (GMR) heads use a separate element for writing and another for reading. The separation between these two components varies from head to head. Once again manufacturers optimise data density by implementing Variable Tracks Per Inch (VTPI). Each HD therefore needs to be calibrated to account for VBPI and VTPI, otherwise the drive doesn't know where to find the tracks, or the data within the track. When a drive powers up, it needs to retrieve the bulk of its firmware from a reserved area (System Area) on the platters. If it can't read these data, then it clicks. This is what usually happens after you swap a board without transferring the calibration information. That said, you may be lucky, and the tolerances between patient and donor may be close enough to allow you to access your data without a ROM transfer. - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email. |
#18
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Can high voltage from power supply damage harddrive?
On 8/28/2010 11:03 PM PT, Rod Speed typed:
I just talked to my friend who gave me the Dell computer, and he said that his repair guy told him the reason his harddrive failed may (likely?) have been a surge or something coming from the power supply. Is this a cause of harddrive failure? Yes, it can happen. A common cause? Nope. It has happened to me back in summer of 2005 with an old ASUS A7V333 motherboard/mobo. (lock ups and no more boot ups) and Quantum Fireball Plus 30 GB IDE HDD (circuit controller died). They were damaged by a recent PSU melt down. The mobo's circuit board had brown/orange coloring on its circuit board, a horrible burning odor/smell, etc. The old HDD also went dead too. I never bothered to recover that drive's datas since I had a backup. -- "Ants are so much like human beings as to be an embarrassment. They farm fungi, raise aphids as livestock, launch armies into wars, use chemical sprays to alarm and confuse enemies, capture slaves. The families of weaver ants engage in child labor, holding their larvae like shuttles to spin out the thread that sews the leaves together for their fungus gardens. They exchange information ceaselessly. They do everything but watch television." --Lewis Thomas /\___/\ Phil./Ant @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site) / /\ /\ \ Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net | |o o| | \ _ / If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link. ( ) If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed. Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer. |
#19
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Can high voltage from power supply damage harddrive?
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 28/08/2010 9:51 PM, Arno wrote: In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Yousuf wrote: On 28/08/2010 8:49 PM, mm wrote: I just talked to my friend who gave me the Dell computer, and he said that his repair guy told him the reason his harddrive failed may (likely?) have been a surge or something coming from the power supply. Is this a cause of harddrive failure? That's possible, but a more likely cause is the exact opposite situation, where there wasn't enough power coming through the power supply at the right moment. That would not kill a drive. All modern HDDs have voltage sensors and will just shut down if given too low voltages. Arno I'm pretty certain a lack of power was what killed one of my old 500GB drives a few years back. Up until that time, it was working perfectly, there were no SMART errors, etc. Then one day, I added another hard drive into the system, and this one just stopped functioning simultaneously. The only plausible answer is that the PS wasn't putting enough power out to run all of the drives at the same time. Well, temprary failure is of course possible, but if will simply refuse to work and stay undamaged. There are other explanations for a drive dying when adding another. Basically mechanical damage, the first spin-down after along time and it was not able to spin-up for a long time, electrostatic damage, etc.. Arno -- Arno Wagner, Dr. sc. techn., Dipl. Inform., CISSP -- Email: GnuPG: ID: 1E25338F FP: 0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F ---- Cuddly UI's are the manifestation of wishful thinking. -- Dylan Evans |
#20
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Can high voltage from power supply damage harddrive?
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage JD wrote:
Was a surge protector used for this computer? If not, the user was a fool. Electric supplies are always oscillating up and down and need taming by the surge protector. That is BS. First, a surge protector would not help here at all. Second, changes in AC frequency are harmless for most equipment including computers. You clock may be off by a bit. But at least in Europe these variances are tiny. What a surge protector is for is to catch severe overvoltage spikes induced by ligthening stikes close to or into above ground mains lines. These go into the 1000V range and can not only kill PSUs, they can also induce overvoltage on the low-volt side in badly designed PSUs. It is the task of the surge protector to limit the voltge to something like 400V (235V AV) or 200V (115V AC), which a PSU can usualy withstand for some miliseconds (at least if reasonable quality). Note that above-ground mains lines are a sign of an underdeveloped or very old grid and are not in use anymore in modern installations. With below ground mains, the surge risk is very, very small. Arno -- Arno Wagner, Dr. sc. techn., Dipl. Inform., CISSP -- Email: GnuPG: ID: 1E25338F FP: 0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F ---- Cuddly UI's are the manifestation of wishful thinking. -- Dylan Evans |
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