Micro ATX / water cooled question

I have a Sony Desktop water cooled case that is running a Pentium D dual
core 2.8 - pretty high temp chip. The chip has no fan just an alum. plate
and four copper tubes running to a heat sink with a fan about 120MM. I am
not certain how the alum. plate is adhered to the MB other than there are
four posts at each corner with a tall Philips head screw. The chip position
appears to be the same as I have a micro ATX MB and will replace it with the
same.

I'd like to upgrade the MB to a quad chip and from what I understand newer
chips are running cooler than the one I have. And I'd like to keep the case
and the rest of the components. I need to avoid the expense of a new
machine.



Will my water cooled system handle the heat from a quad ? Are these two
chips the same height off the MB ?

Wonderman wrote:
I have a Sony Desktop water cooled case that is running a Pentium D dual
core 2.8 - pretty high temp chip. The chip has no fan just an alum. plate
and four copper tubes running to a heat sink with a fan about 120MM. I am
not certain how the alum. plate is adhered to the MB other than there are
four posts at each corner with a tall Philips head screw. The chip
position
appears to be the same as I have a micro ATX MB and will replace it with
the
same.

I'd like to upgrade the MB to a quad chip and from what I understand newer
chips are running cooler than the one I have. And I'd like to keep the
case
and the rest of the components. I need to avoid the expense of a new
machine.

Will my water cooled system handle the heat from a quad ? Are these two
chips the same height off the MB ?

You can look up processors on processorfinder.intel.com . The Pentium D 2.8GHz
models, seem to be 95 watt.

http://processorfinder.intel.com/Lis...112&SearchKey=

You can check some Core2 Quads here. Some of them are 95W. Intel recently
came out with some, which are lower power (and more expensive).

http://processorfinder.intel.com/Lis...774&SearchKey=

A 65W quad.
http://processorfinder.intel.com/det...px?sSpec=SLGAE

Your cooler could be a heatpipe type, rather than water. The block is clamped
to the CPU. The fins up high, generally are oriented on the back of the computer
case, such that an exhaust fan can blow air through them. The exhaust fan
then does double duty, exhausting hot case air, as well as cooling down the
CPU.

http://www.dansdata.com/images/xpcs/cooler280.jpg

Heat pipes are infinitely better than water. They conduct heat better than solid
copper of the same diameter. A small amount of liquid is inside the pipe (a drop or
two). The CPU end (heat source), boils the liquid and turns it into vapor. The cool end
condenses the vapor. The liquid runs back by capillary action (if the inside of the
tube is sintered). A sintered tube helps resist gravity, so that the
orientation is less important. A plain smooth tube, would have to be oriented
so the liquid flows back via gravity.

There are no moving parts on a heatpipe assembly (except the fan of course).
But a heatpipe can still fail, if the seal breaks and the tiny amount of
fluid inside evaporates. Having four pipes gives you some resistance to a
pipe failure.

There is a limit to how much heat a heatpipe can handle. If the entire
assembly is hotter than the condensation temperature of the fluid, then
there is no longer "transport" of heat from one end to the other. The
heatpipe is saturated at that point, and quite ineffective.

Now, your biggest issue with this motherboard upgrade, will be the position
of the motherboard socket on the new board. It would have to be in
exactly the same location as the old motherboard. That might not be
so easy to arrange. And retrofitting an aftermarket cooler would not
be that easy either, since space in a small computer case is limited.
A tall heatsink wouldn't fit, and a squat heatsink might be
too loud, due to the much higher fan speed.

Just so you know what you're up against.

So somehow, you have to verify the position of the LGA775 socket with
respect to the rest of the motherboard. Not the easiest thing to do
with the crappy pictures on the Internet. If the socket is moved, the
heatpipe assembly might no longer line up with the case mounting bits.

Paul

Thank you for your reply -

This is the exact cooler -

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...egory= 101194


Seems like the wattage wont be that much of an issue. I'll have to get a
drawing of the new MB and compare but it seems like I can do this. I
figured there was a back plate on the reverse side to grab the screws. I'll
just need to acurately compare the two boards for the locationof the chip.

Thanks again !



"Paul" wrote in message
...
Wonderman wrote:
I have a Sony Desktop water cooled case that is running a Pentium D dual
core 2.8 - pretty high temp chip. The chip has no fan just an alum.
plate
and four copper tubes running to a heat sink with a fan about 120MM. I
am
not certain how the alum. plate is adhered to the MB other than there are
four posts at each corner with a tall Philips head screw. The chip
position
appears to be the same as I have a micro ATX MB and will replace it with
the
same.

I'd like to upgrade the MB to a quad chip and from what I understand
newer
chips are running cooler than the one I have. And I'd like to keep the
case
and the rest of the components. I need to avoid the expense of a new
machine.

Will my water cooled system handle the heat from a quad ? Are these two
chips the same height off the MB ?

You can look up processors on processorfinder.intel.com . The Pentium D
2.8GHz
models, seem to be 95 watt.

http://processorfinder.intel.com/Lis...112&SearchKey=

You can check some Core2 Quads here. Some of them are 95W. Intel recently
came out with some, which are lower power (and more expensive).

http://processorfinder.intel.com/Lis...774&SearchKey=

A 65W quad.
http://processorfinder.intel.com/det...px?sSpec=SLGAE

Your cooler could be a heatpipe type, rather than water. The block is
clamped
to the CPU. The fins up high, generally are oriented on the back of the
computer
case, such that an exhaust fan can blow air through them. The exhaust fan
then does double duty, exhausting hot case air, as well as cooling down
the
CPU.

http://www.dansdata.com/images/xpcs/cooler280.jpg

Heat pipes are infinitely better than water. They conduct heat better than
solid
copper of the same diameter. A small amount of liquid is inside the pipe
(a drop or
two). The CPU end (heat source), boils the liquid and turns it into vapor.
The cool end
condenses the vapor. The liquid runs back by capillary action (if the
inside of the
tube is sintered). A sintered tube helps resist gravity, so that the
orientation is less important. A plain smooth tube, would have to be
oriented
so the liquid flows back via gravity.

There are no moving parts on a heatpipe assembly (except the fan of
course).
But a heatpipe can still fail, if the seal breaks and the tiny amount of
fluid inside evaporates. Having four pipes gives you some resistance to a
pipe failure.

There is a limit to how much heat a heatpipe can handle. If the entire
assembly is hotter than the condensation temperature of the fluid, then
there is no longer "transport" of heat from one end to the other. The
heatpipe is saturated at that point, and quite ineffective.

Now, your biggest issue with this motherboard upgrade, will be the
position
of the motherboard socket on the new board. It would have to be in
exactly the same location as the old motherboard. That might not be
so easy to arrange. And retrofitting an aftermarket cooler would not
be that easy either, since space in a small computer case is limited.
A tall heatsink wouldn't fit, and a squat heatsink might be
too loud, due to the much higher fan speed.

Just so you know what you're up against.

So somehow, you have to verify the position of the LGA775 socket with
respect to the rest of the motherboard. Not the easiest thing to do
with the crappy pictures on the Internet. If the socket is moved, the
heatpipe assembly might no longer line up with the case mounting bits.

Paul

Wonderman wrote:
Thank you for your reply -

This is the exact cooler -

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...egory= 101194



Seems like the wattage wont be that much of an issue. I'll have to get
a drawing of the new MB and compare but it seems like I can do this. I
figured there was a back plate on the reverse side to grab the screws.
I'll just need to acurately compare the two boards for the locationof
the chip.

Thanks again !


I think those are heatpipes. That is a pretty substantial cooler for a
95W processor. I bet the fan speed isn't very high.

Paul

The old Sony promo literature says that it is water cooled. A google search
turned up a lot of passive coolers without pumps like this one and you're
right it has a slow fan speed. I guess the water gets hot and rises to the
top , runs through the radiator and returns down. And under high usage the
fan speed increases relative to the CPU temp. Pretty nice system which is
why I want to keep it.


"Paul" wrote in message
...
Wonderman wrote:
Thank you for your reply -

This is the exact cooler -

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...egory= 101194
Seems like the wattage wont be that much of an issue. I'll have to get a
drawing of the new MB and compare but it seems like I can do this. I
figured there was a back plate on the reverse side to grab the screws.
I'll just need to acurately compare the two boards for the locationof the
chip.

Thanks again !


I think those are heatpipes. That is a pretty substantial cooler for a
95W processor. I bet the fan speed isn't very high.

Paul

On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 20:19:18 -0500, Paul wrote:


Heat pipes are infinitely better than water. They conduct heat better than solid
copper of the same diameter. A small amount of liquid is inside the pipe (a drop or
two). The CPU end (heat source), boils the liquid and turns it into vapor. The cool end
condenses the vapor. The liquid runs back by capillary action (if the inside of the
tube is sintered). A sintered tube helps resist gravity, so that the
orientation is less important. A plain smooth tube, would have to be oriented
so the liquid flows back via gravity.

There are no moving parts on a heatpipe assembly (except the fan of course).
But a heatpipe can still fail, if the seal breaks and the tiny amount of
fluid inside evaporates. Having four pipes gives you some resistance to a
pipe failure.

There is a limit to how much heat a heatpipe can handle. If the entire
assembly is hotter than the condensation temperature of the fluid, then
there is no longer "transport" of heat from one end to the other. The
heatpipe is saturated at that point, and quite ineffective.


So are you saying that if can find a heatpipe-based CPU cooler, that
is preferable to water-cooling? On the face of it, that seems true,
because with water-cooling you have to have a pump assembly, a
radiator, plus tubing all through the inside of the system case, with
the potential for leaks anywhere. With the heatpipe, everything is
sealed up at the factory, and that seems to be a real plus. Am I
right in all this?

What if you want to overclock? How do you determine the CPU wattage
if you are boosting voltages and clock speeds?

Can you get video card coolers or memory stick coolers based on
heatpipes?

"Wonderman" wrote in message
...
The old Sony promo literature says that it is water cooled. A google
search
turned up a lot of passive coolers without pumps like this one and you're
right it has a slow fan speed. I guess the water gets hot and rises to
the
top , runs through the radiator and returns down. And under high usage
the
fan speed increases relative to the CPU temp. Pretty nice system which is
why I want to keep it.


Strictly speaking, this is more of a water cooling than a heatpipe
configuration. If you threw in things like a heatlane plate then it's hard
to differentiate between them, but organic and passive water pump systems
are sorta a dream when they work.

These are nice coolers so I hope you can keep it and make sure it works, You
should check the height of it all and find out if your going to need shims,
but other than that I would guess it'll work.

In article , "Wonderman" wrote:
The old Sony promo literature says that it is water cooled. A google search
turned up a lot of passive coolers without pumps like this one and you're
right it has a slow fan speed. I guess the water gets hot and rises to the
top , runs through the radiator and returns down. And under high usage the
fan speed increases relative to the CPU temp. Pretty nice system which is
why I want to keep it.



All heat pipe coolers work this way.



"Paul" wrote in message
...
Wonderman wrote:
Thank you for your reply -

This is the exact cooler -


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory= 10119
4
Seems like the wattage wont be that much of an issue. I'll have to get a
drawing of the new MB and compare but it seems like I can do this. I
figured there was a back plate on the reverse side to grab the screws.
I'll just need to acurately compare the two boards for the locationof the
chip.

Thanks again !


I think those are heatpipes. That is a pretty substantial cooler for a
95W processor. I bet the fan speed isn't very high.

Paul

"Andrew Hamilton" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 20:19:18 -0500, Paul wrote:


Heat pipes are infinitely better than water. They conduct heat better
than solid
copper of the same diameter. A small amount of liquid is inside the pipe
(a drop or
two). The CPU end (heat source), boils the liquid and turns it into
vapor. The cool end
condenses the vapor. The liquid runs back by capillary action (if the
inside of the
tube is sintered). A sintered tube helps resist gravity, so that the
orientation is less important. A plain smooth tube, would have to be
oriented
so the liquid flows back via gravity.

There are no moving parts on a heatpipe assembly (except the fan of
course).
But a heatpipe can still fail, if the seal breaks and the tiny amount of
fluid inside evaporates. Having four pipes gives you some resistance to a
pipe failure.

There is a limit to how much heat a heatpipe can handle. If the entire
assembly is hotter than the condensation temperature of the fluid, then
there is no longer "transport" of heat from one end to the other. The
heatpipe is saturated at that point, and quite ineffective.


So are you saying that if can find a heatpipe-based CPU cooler, that
is preferable to water-cooling? On the face of it, that seems true,
because with water-cooling you have to have a pump assembly, a
radiator, plus tubing all through the inside of the system case, with
the potential for leaks anywhere. With the heatpipe, everything is
sealed up at the factory, and that seems to be a real plus. Am I
right in all this?

What if you want to overclock? How do you determine the CPU wattage
if you are boosting voltages and clock speeds?

Can you get video card coolers or memory stick coolers based on
heatpipes?

You ideally want to buy the video cards that come with heatpipe coolers
attached, memory sticks dont really need cooling (testing shows it makes no
difference), water cooling is better than "heatpipe" systems, it's generally
cheaper (when you consider CPU, GPU, NorthBridge cost). Good quality
watercooling will use an external raditor so all heat is dumped outside of
the case, and that allows the PSU to run cooler also.

WaterCooling can be a lot more difficult for you to manage, and if you want
low-noise hassle-free stuff then "heatpipe" based solutions work really
well. Not all heatpipes are the same either, pulsating heatpipes are way
better than simple capillary heatpipes, and having good quality fins and
polished surfaces on the heatsinks you use can be really important too when
it comes to them working really well.

The largest drawback to heatpipe coolers is probably the fact that they are
really really heavy and if you dont know what your doing then you can damage
the chips or the board when installing them.

Andrew Hamilton wrote:
On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 20:19:18 -0500, Paul wrote:


Heat pipes are infinitely better than water. They conduct heat better than solid
copper of the same diameter. A small amount of liquid is inside the pipe (a drop or
two). The CPU end (heat source), boils the liquid and turns it into vapor. The cool end
condenses the vapor. The liquid runs back by capillary action (if the inside of the
tube is sintered). A sintered tube helps resist gravity, so that the
orientation is less important. A plain smooth tube, would have to be oriented
so the liquid flows back via gravity.

There are no moving parts on a heatpipe assembly (except the fan of course).
But a heatpipe can still fail, if the seal breaks and the tiny amount of
fluid inside evaporates. Having four pipes gives you some resistance to a
pipe failure.

There is a limit to how much heat a heatpipe can handle. If the entire
assembly is hotter than the condensation temperature of the fluid, then
there is no longer "transport" of heat from one end to the other. The
heatpipe is saturated at that point, and quite ineffective.


So are you saying that if can find a heatpipe-based CPU cooler, that
is preferable to water-cooling? On the face of it, that seems true,
because with water-cooling you have to have a pump assembly, a
radiator, plus tubing all through the inside of the system case, with
the potential for leaks anywhere. With the heatpipe, everything is
sealed up at the factory, and that seems to be a real plus. Am I
right in all this?

What if you want to overclock? How do you determine the CPU wattage
if you are boosting voltages and clock speeds?

Can you get video card coolers or memory stick coolers based on
heatpipes?

To be clear about it, a heat pipe is the "transport" part of the solution.
It moves the heat from one place to another, but doesn't get rid of it.
It still takes transfer of the heat, into the surrounding air in most
cases. That is what the cooling fins do for you - the larger the
surface area of the fin, the better chance there is of making the
transfer into the air.

If you consider a fin by itself (take a simple Northbridge heatsink for
example), the heatsink gets better, as the fins get taller. But the
effect drops off, due to the poor conduction of heat up the fin. You
could make the fin thicker, and the spreading would be improved, but
then there would be fewer fins and less surface area. This is why there
is a limit to how effective a simple passive heatsink can be. The
transport part of the passive heatsink is poor.

If you look at the orientation of the heat pipes, they're set up so that
there is little distance from the heatpipe, for the final heat to travel.
So instead of flowing a long distance through the body of a fin, the heatpipe
delivers the heat to the fin. That is the basic principle of the
heatpipe - take the heat from a very concentrated point, move it five
inches or so, into waiting fins.

The heatpipe is sealed at the factory. The inside of the heatpipe doesn't
have to be at atmospheric pressure. It could be pressurized or it could be
partially evacuated. Adjusting the pressure, changes the boiling point of
the bit of fluid inside. The boiling point can also be changed by changing
the fluid (alcohol, water, whatever). The fluid selected should be stable
and not decompose over time. And the fluid doesn't have to boil as such,
since fluid has a vapor pressure even below its boiling point.

The formula for CMOS heating is F*C*V**2. C is the node capacitance, and
is a constant in the equation. F is the toggle frequency (how often a node
changes states - the changing of states charges or discharges the internal
capacitance of the node). For a bulk calculation, we assume the number of
nodes and the percentage of time they're toggling are a constant factor,
and thus fudge the equation to make F be the core frequency alone. We're
summing the effects of hundreds of millions of nodes, to come up with the
heat. V**2 is actually the Vcore supply voltage times the voltage swing
of the logic signal. CMOS can be full amplitude, but it may not be depending
on how logic gates are designed. The equation simplifies this to V**2
(V squared), which suggests a pure CMOS technology. (I've worked with
one technology, where we did power calculations, and the swing was not
rail to rail.)

If we take the ratio of two conditions (overclocked versus nominal), we
get F2/F1 and we get V2**2/V1**2. If you overclock to 1.5x the frequency,
the power is proportional. But if you change Vcore, it is the ratio of
the squares of the two voltages. In a typical extreme overclocking situation,
you might get as much additional power from frequency, as from the
extra voltage used. If you only overclock a little bit, and leave Vcore
alone, then the power increase is proportional to frequency alone.

This is an example of an aftermarket heatpipe cooler for video cards.
Zalman VF1000. Even some of the smaller ones, may use one or two pipes.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835118037

Paul