Expert Advice Sought

To All Cognoscenti,

I had a desktop computer built for us by a local outfit 22 months ago. It's
equipped with a Maxtor 6Y120PO hard drive in a slide-out cage. Shortly
after taking delivery of the unit I discovered that the tiny fan built into
the front of the slide-out cage was missing. An inquiry to the head honcho
of the outfit produced the answer that they had removed the fan as it was
unneeded because today's drives operated at high temperatures without any
harm. I felt uneasy about the matter, but who am I to argue with a
technician, right?

About a year ago our computer started seriously misbehaving. After much
pulling of hair a disk scan revealed four files with bad clusters in the
occupied areas of the partition containing Windows XP and our application
programs. Lately major problems reared their ugly heads again. One problem
was a badly seated memory card. The other, according to a disk scan with
CHKDSK /R, dozens of files with bad clusters in the occupied areas of the
partition containing the data files. I don't know how many because the list
scrolled off the screen.

The computer sits on the floor in our living room and no jarring has ever
occurred.

Question one: is the removal of the fan from the slide-out cage a likely
contributing factor to the repeated and increasing failure of the disk?

Question two: is the disk toast?

Expert advice from qualified technicians would be much appreciated.

Andy

Andy wrote

To All Cognoscenti,

Soorree, not a wog.

I had a desktop computer built for us by a local outfit 22 months
ago. It's equipped with a Maxtor 6Y120PO hard drive in a slide-out
cage. Shortly after taking delivery of the unit I discovered that the
tiny fan built into the front of the slide-out cage was missing. An
inquiry to the head honcho of the outfit produced the answer that
they had removed the fan as it was unneeded because today's drives operated at
high temperatures without any harm.

He's a fool/liar.

I felt uneasy about the matter, but who am I to argue with a technician,
right?

You could have asked about that then.

About a year ago our computer started seriously misbehaving. After much
pulling of hair a disk scan revealed four files with bad
clusters in the occupied areas of the partition containing Windows XP
and our application programs. Lately major problems reared their ugly
heads again. One problem was a badly seated memory card. The other,
according to a disk scan with CHKDSK /R, dozens of files with bad
clusters in the occupied areas of the partition containing the data
files. I don't know how many because the list scrolled off the screen.

The computer sits on the floor in our living room and no jarring has ever
occurred.

Question one: is the removal of the fan from the slide-out cage a likely
contributing factor to the repeated and increasing failure of the disk?

Yes, very likely. See what temperature drive is
actually running at with the SMART data using
http://www.lavalys.com/products/over...?pid=1&lang=en

Question two: is the disk toast?

Probably, run Maxtor's PowerMax and see what it says.

Expert advice from qualified technicians would be much appreciated.

I'm still not a wog.

Previously Andy wrote:
To All Cognoscenti,

I had a desktop computer built for us by a local outfit 22 months ago. It's
equipped with a Maxtor 6Y120PO hard drive in a slide-out cage. Shortly
after taking delivery of the unit I discovered that the tiny fan built into
the front of the slide-out cage was missing. An inquiry to the head honcho
of the outfit produced the answer that they had removed the fan as it was
unneeded because today's drives operated at high temperatures without any
harm. I felt uneasy about the matter, but who am I to argue with a
technician, right?

Well, besides shock, heat is still the number one HDD killer.
Maxtor says 5C...55C with no impact on ARR (i.e. warranty claims)
and up to 60C with "acceptable" impact, whatever that means.
If you intend to operate your drives longer than the warranty
period, staying well below the 55C most of the time and
never exceeding it may be a good idea.

About a year ago our computer started seriously misbehaving. After much
pulling of hair a disk scan revealed four files with bad clusters in the
occupied areas of the partition containing Windows XP and our application
programs. Lately major problems reared their ugly heads again. One problem
was a badly seated memory card. The other, according to a disk scan with
CHKDSK /R, dozens of files with bad clusters in the occupied areas of the
partition containing the data files. I don't know how many because the list
scrolled off the screen.

Looks like a typical dying Maxtor disk. The nice thing about them
is that the die gradually, i.e. when you observe the first warning
signs (defect sectors that the disk could not hide, or better
steadily growing reallocated sectors in the SMART values),
most data is still intact and you can get it off.

The computer sits on the floor in our living room and no jarring has ever
occurred.

Question one: is the removal of the fan from the slide-out cage a likely
contributing factor to the repeated and increasing failure of the disk?

Personal opinion: Yes. But there is a random chance factor involved,
you may have just gotten unlucky or the disk might have been subject
to excessive shock before it was mounted in the PC.

Question two: is the disk toast?

Most likely. When a modern disk cannot hide defects anymore that
is a _very_ bad sign.

Expert advice from qualified technicians would be much appreciated.

Well, I don't qualify. However I have in excess of 50 HDDs currently
running, most of them mounted myself and many Maxtors among them, so
I have non-exoert experience.

Arno

Hello Rod,

Thank you for your prompt reply.

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Andy wrote

To All Cognoscenti,

Soorree, not a wog.

:-)


I had a desktop computer built for us by a local outfit 22 months
ago. It's equipped with a Maxtor 6Y120PO hard drive in a slide-out
cage. Shortly after taking delivery of the unit I discovered that the
tiny fan built into the front of the slide-out cage was missing. An
inquiry to the head honcho of the outfit produced the answer that
they had removed the fan as it was unneeded because today's drives
operated at high temperatures without any harm.

He's a fool/liar.

Auch!


I felt uneasy about the matter, but who am I to argue with a technician,
right?

You could have asked about that then.

You are abslutely right. My only excuse is my naivitee and trust in human
nature.


About a year ago our computer started seriously misbehaving. After much
pulling of hair a disk scan revealed four files with bad
clusters in the occupied areas of the partition containing Windows XP
and our application programs. Lately major problems reared their ugly
heads again. One problem was a badly seated memory card. The other,
according to a disk scan with CHKDSK /R, dozens of files with bad
clusters in the occupied areas of the partition containing the data
files. I don't know how many because the list scrolled off the screen.

The computer sits on the floor in our living room and no jarring has ever
occurred.

Question one: is the removal of the fan from the slide-out cage a likely
contributing factor to the repeated and increasing failure of the disk?

Yes, very likely. See what temperature drive is
actually running at with the SMART data using
http://www.lavalys.com/products/over...?pid=1&lang=en

Got it!


Question two: is the disk toast?

Probably, run Maxtor's PowerMax and see what it says.

I've run PowerMax and it branded my HDD a failure.


Expert advice from qualified technicians would be much appreciated.

I'm still not a wog.
OK :-)


Thanks again.

Regards,

Andy

Hello Arno,

Thank your for your prompt reply.

"Arno Wagner" wrote in message
...
Previously Andy wrote:
To All Cognoscenti,

I had a desktop computer built for us by a local outfit 22 months ago.
It's
equipped with a Maxtor 6Y120PO hard drive in a slide-out cage. Shortly
after taking delivery of the unit I discovered that the tiny fan built
into
the front of the slide-out cage was missing. An inquiry to the head
honcho
of the outfit produced the answer that they had removed the fan as it was
unneeded because today's drives operated at high temperatures without any
harm. I felt uneasy about the matter, but who am I to argue with a
technician, right?

Well, besides shock, heat is still the number one HDD killer.
Maxtor says 5C...55C with no impact on ARR (i.e. warranty claims)
and up to 60C with "acceptable" impact, whatever that means.
If you intend to operate your drives longer than the warranty
period, staying well below the 55C most of the time and
never exceeding it may be a good idea.

I certainly intend to operate my drives longer than the warranty period. The
drive in question, when removed from the computer and still in its slide-out
cage, is too hot to touch. It certainly exceeds the above heat values.


About a year ago our computer started seriously misbehaving. After much
pulling of hair a disk scan revealed four files with bad clusters in the
occupied areas of the partition containing Windows XP and our application
programs. Lately major problems reared their ugly heads again. One
problem
was a badly seated memory card. The other, according to a disk scan with
CHKDSK /R, dozens of files with bad clusters in the occupied areas of the
partition containing the data files. I don't know how many because the
list
scrolled off the screen.

Looks like a typical dying Maxtor disk. The nice thing about them
is that the die gradually, i.e. when you observe the first warning
signs (defect sectors that the disk could not hide, or better
steadily growing reallocated sectors in the SMART values),
most data is still intact and you can get it off.


That's what happened in this case.

The computer sits on the floor in our living room and no jarring has ever
occurred.

Question one: is the removal of the fan from the slide-out cage a likely
contributing factor to the repeated and increasing failure of the disk?

Personal opinion: Yes. But there is a random chance factor involved,
you may have just gotten unlucky or the disk might have been subject
to excessive shock before it was mounted in the PC.

Question two: is the disk toast?

Most likely. When a modern disk cannot hide defects anymore that
is a _very_ bad sign.


You are absolutely right. PowerMax branded my HDD a failure.

Expert advice from qualified technicians would be much appreciated.

Well, I don't qualify. However I have in excess of 50 HDDs currently
running, most of them mounted myself and many Maxtors among them, so
I have non-exoert experience.

Arno

Sincere thanks for you help.

Regards,

Andy

Hello Arno,

"Arno Wagner" wrote in message
...
Previously Andy wrote:

Well, besides shock, heat is still the number one HDD killer.
Maxtor says 5C...55C with no impact on ARR (i.e. warranty claims)
and up to 60C with "acceptable" impact, whatever that means.
If you intend to operate your drives longer than the warranty
period, staying well below the 55C most of the time and
never exceeding it may be a good idea.

Would the above temperature values refer to the Current System Temperature
(40 C in my case) as shown by the CMOS Setup Utility?

Thanks in advance,

Andy

Andy wrote
Arno Wagner wrote
Andy wrote

Well, besides shock, heat is still the number one HDD killer.
Maxtor says 5C...55C with no impact on ARR (i.e. warranty claims)
and up to 60C with "acceptable" impact, whatever that means.
If you intend to operate your drives longer than the warranty
period, staying well below the 55C most of the time and
never exceeding it may be a good idea.

Would the above temperature values refer to the Current System
Temperature (40 C in my case) as shown by the CMOS Setup Utility?

Nope, you need to use the SMART temperature as displayed by Everest etc.

Previously Andy wrote:
Hello Arno,

"Arno Wagner" wrote in message
...
Previously Andy wrote:

Well, besides shock, heat is still the number one HDD killer.
Maxtor says 5C...55C with no impact on ARR (i.e. warranty claims)
and up to 60C with "acceptable" impact, whatever that means.
If you intend to operate your drives longer than the warranty
period, staying well below the 55C most of the time and
never exceeding it may be a good idea.

Would the above temperature values refer to the Current System Temperature
(40 C in my case) as shown by the CMOS Setup Utility?

No, the disk will definitely be warmer. The system temperature
is sort of the mainboard temperature.

Under Linux you can use hddtemp to find out about the disk
temperature. Under Linux and Windows you can try the smartmontools,
they list the temperature-field and usually get it right too.

Arno

Andy wrote:

To All Cognoscenti,

I had a desktop computer built for us by a local outfit 22 months ago.
It's equipped with a Maxtor 6Y120PO hard drive in a slide-out cage.
Shortly after taking delivery of the unit I discovered that the tiny fan
built into the front of the slide-out cage was missing. An inquiry to the
head honcho of the outfit produced the answer that they had removed the
fan as it was unneeded because today's drives operated at high
temperatures without any harm. I felt uneasy about the matter, but who am
I to argue with a technician, right?

First, the manufacturers of the drive trays sell them with no fans, one fan,
two fans, and sometimes three fans. It's the same tray, what's different
is the number of fans screwed into it. Most of the better ones also have
an additional fan in the part that is screwed into the computer, and that
fan is usually sufficient unless it fails. Might be worth looking into the
bay with a flashlight to see if the fan is there and if it is turning.

Next, never trust any technician at a computer store. One fellow I used to
work for would say to any customer who brought in a dead machine, "It's the
ROM". He said this with such confidence that even after fixing the machine
and finding that the problem had nothing to do with any ROM it was
difficult to not believe him. One day someone brought in a machine about
an inch thick with a tire mark in the middle of it. This fellow said, with
great confidence, "I see your problem--it's the ROM". The rest of us had
to go out the back door so the customer wouldn't see us cracking up.
Unfortunately he owned the store so there wasn't anything we could do about
him except leave, which, eventually, we all did. As did his customers.

About a year ago our computer started seriously misbehaving. After much
pulling of hair a disk scan revealed four files with bad clusters in the
occupied areas of the partition containing Windows XP and our application
programs. Lately major problems reared their ugly heads again. One problem
was a badly seated memory card. The other, according to a disk scan with
CHKDSK /R, dozens of files with bad clusters in the occupied areas of the
partition containing the data files. I don't know how many because the
list scrolled off the screen.

The computer sits on the floor in our living room and no jarring has ever
occurred.

Question one: is the removal of the fan from the slide-out cage a likely
contributing factor to the repeated and increasing failure of the disk?

It was probably never there to begin with, but that aside if there is no
other fan in the bay then yes, odds are that lack of cooling killed the
drive.

Question two: is the disk toast?

From what you describe, yes, it almost certainly is.

Expert advice from qualified technicians would be much appreciated.

There's something called a "Tempilstik", which is a crayon that melts at a
calibrated temperature. You might want to get a couple that melt at
temperatures close to the recommended and absolute maximum ratings for your
drive, and make marks where the manufacturer recommends that one check
temperatures (this is usually but not always in the middle in back just
above the connectors and whatnot). Check periodically and see if either
mark has melted--you might want to make some marks on your dead drive and
blow a hair drier on them so you can see what the unmelted and melted marks
look like--the difference can be subtle. If it has melted then you know
you've got a cooling problem.

If you're near a major city call around to welding suppliers. If not,
there's a good selection at Welding Depot
http://store.weldingdepot.com/cgi/weldingdepot/scan/fi=products/st=db/sp=results/co=1/sf=category/se=Tempilstiks®/op=eq/nu=0/bs=1/ml=40/tf=description/to=x/se=1/sf=inactive/op=ne/sf=tax_category/se=1/op=eq/va=banner_text=/va=banner_image=.html?id=4k2b4cYf
(If that link doesn't work try http://www.weldingdepot.com and type
tempilstik in the search block)

Andy

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Previously J. Clarke wrote:
Andy wrote:

To All Cognoscenti,

I had a desktop computer built for us by a local outfit 22 months ago.
It's equipped with a Maxtor 6Y120PO hard drive in a slide-out cage.
Shortly after taking delivery of the unit I discovered that the tiny fan
built into the front of the slide-out cage was missing. An inquiry to the
head honcho of the outfit produced the answer that they had removed the
fan as it was unneeded because today's drives operated at high
temperatures without any harm. I felt uneasy about the matter, but who am
I to argue with a technician, right?

First, the manufacturers of the drive trays sell them with no fans, one fan,
two fans, and sometimes three fans. It's the same tray, what's different
is the number of fans screwed into it. Most of the better ones also have
an additional fan in the part that is screwed into the computer, and that
fan is usually sufficient unless it fails. Might be worth looking into the
bay with a flashlight to see if the fan is there and if it is turning.

Next, never trust any technician at a computer store. One fellow I used to
work for would say to any customer who brought in a dead machine, "It's the
ROM". He said this with such confidence that even after fixing the machine
and finding that the problem had nothing to do with any ROM it was
difficult to not believe him. One day someone brought in a machine about
an inch thick with a tire mark in the middle of it. This fellow said, with
great confidence, "I see your problem--it's the ROM". The rest of us had
to go out the back door so the customer wouldn't see us cracking up.
Unfortunately he owned the store so there wasn't anything we could do about
him except leave, which, eventually, we all did. As did his customers.

Nice one! Illustrates well that in order to not get ripped off you
still have to have some competence yourself. Not so different from
cars.

Arno