Should I go Athlon64 or Barton?

Franklin ) wrote...
Hi guys, after several years I have run out of power on my old 700
MHz Duron system and now want something new.

I don't play games, I am not a power user, I don't do video or audio
editing. I just surf and do some small office activities.

So what app is giving you the urge to upgrade?

I had thought of upgrading my current system to a T'bred 2400+ but
the PSU is not big enough and the case is a bit small, so I will
build a new system instead.

OK.

A Barton 2500+ (with maybe an Asus A78NX mobo) is more than enough
power for me but am I buying into obsolescence? Athlon64 is where
the growth will be and furture residual values will be higher than
for Barton.

Whatever you buy, you are buying into obsolescence. It's guaranteed
with computers. All you can vary is how long before it is reached.

If you keep this machine as long as you have presumably kept your
Duron 700, then the difference in used value will be pretty
negligible, IMHO. What's the difference between a Duron 700 and
Athlon 1200 (say) today? Not a lot....

Are there any other advantages of Athlon64 for a user like me other
than that?

Umm. It's faster. If you have the urge to try a 64-bit OS then you
can. It's good for bragging rights. Your hair will start to grow
thicker, and more luxurient. Women will find you strangely
attractive. Sorry. I've been reading too much marketing material.

Are there particular disadvantages ... e.g. more expensive mobos
for athlon64? more expensive memory?

The whole system will cost a fair bit more, as you suggest. Mobos
and memory will be pricier.

My advice is to set some parameters for the upgrade. Either set a
performance goal (I want it X times faster than current) and then
investigate acheiving that for the minimum outlay, or set a financial
limit (no more than UKP 500, say), and buy the fastest you can for
that.

Without a real idea of what you want you may end up disappointed,
broke, or both.

Ian

--
Ian Riches
Bedford, UK

In article ,
Ian Riches wrote:
Franklin ) wrote...
Hi guys, after several years I have run out of power on my old 700
MHz Duron system and now want something new.

I don't play games, I am not a power user, I don't do video or audio
editing. I just surf and do some small office activities.

So what app is giving you the urge to upgrade?

I had thought of upgrading my current system to a T'bred 2400+ but
the PSU is not big enough and the case is a bit small, so I will
build a new system instead.

OK.

A Barton 2500+ (with maybe an Asus A78NX mobo) is more than enough
power for me but am I buying into obsolescence? Athlon64 is where
the growth will be and furture residual values will be higher than
for Barton.

Whatever you buy, you are buying into obsolescence. It's guaranteed
with computers. All you can vary is how long before it is reached.

If you keep this machine as long as you have presumably kept your
Duron 700, then the difference in used value will be pretty
negligible, IMHO. What's the difference between a Duron 700 and
Athlon 1200 (say) today? Not a lot....



What I've heard of Longhorn, the next full new release of Windows
(2006?) will require a machine comparable to a dual Opteron
in today's terms. In 2006 that machine will probably cost $500.
(all of this is vapor, so don't hold me to it. Billy can shange hos
mind at any time.)

Buy a machine in the "sweet spot" for price performance today, which
might be a midrange Athlon on a NIC/SOund/Video the motherboard
machine.

Spend the money you save on the system on a nice big LCD screen,
and good sound.

You'll be able to buy a "Longhorn Inside" machine 3 years from
now for less than the cheap machine you buy today. It will
probbaly be 64 bits, but why do you care ?

My $0.02.


Are there any other advantages of Athlon64 for a user like me other
than that?

Umm. It's faster. If you have the urge to try a 64-bit OS then you
can. It's good for bragging rights. Your hair will start to grow
thicker, and more luxurient. Women will find you strangely
attractive. Sorry. I've been reading too much marketing material.

Are there particular disadvantages ... e.g. more expensive mobos
for athlon64? more expensive memory?

The whole system will cost a fair bit more, as you suggest. Mobos
and memory will be pricier.

My advice is to set some parameters for the upgrade. Either set a
performance goal (I want it X times faster than current) and then
investigate acheiving that for the minimum outlay, or set a financial
limit (no more than UKP 500, say), and buy the fastest you can for
that.

Without a real idea of what you want you may end up disappointed,
broke, or both.

Ian

--
Ian Riches
Bedford, UK


--
Al Dykes
-----------
adykes at p a n i x . c o m

Cheers Ian.

I'm in a similar position. Have a 2000XP system right now with 512Mb PC2100
RAM. Running a bit hot.

Looking for something to multitask faster (I have lots of open programs and
play music, TV in background).

*Very* tight budget. Have £200 to spend for new set-up (mobo, cpu and ram -
if needed?). Any ideas?

Cheers.

Bobby
"Ian Riches" wrote in message
t...
Franklin ) wrote...
Hi guys, after several years I have run out of power on my old 700
MHz Duron system and now want something new.

I don't play games, I am not a power user, I don't do video or audio
editing. I just surf and do some small office activities.

So what app is giving you the urge to upgrade?

I had thought of upgrading my current system to a T'bred 2400+ but
the PSU is not big enough and the case is a bit small, so I will
build a new system instead.

OK.

A Barton 2500+ (with maybe an Asus A78NX mobo) is more than enough
power for me but am I buying into obsolescence? Athlon64 is where
the growth will be and furture residual values will be higher than
for Barton.

Whatever you buy, you are buying into obsolescence. It's guaranteed
with computers. All you can vary is how long before it is reached.

If you keep this machine as long as you have presumably kept your
Duron 700, then the difference in used value will be pretty
negligible, IMHO. What's the difference between a Duron 700 and
Athlon 1200 (say) today? Not a lot....

Are there any other advantages of Athlon64 for a user like me other
than that?

Umm. It's faster. If you have the urge to try a 64-bit OS then you
can. It's good for bragging rights. Your hair will start to grow
thicker, and more luxurient. Women will find you strangely
attractive. Sorry. I've been reading too much marketing material.

Are there particular disadvantages ... e.g. more expensive mobos
for athlon64? more expensive memory?

The whole system will cost a fair bit more, as you suggest. Mobos
and memory will be pricier.

My advice is to set some parameters for the upgrade. Either set a
performance goal (I want it X times faster than current) and then
investigate acheiving that for the minimum outlay, or set a financial
limit (no more than UKP 500, say), and buy the fastest you can for
that.

Without a real idea of what you want you may end up disappointed,
broke, or both.

Ian

--
Ian Riches
Bedford, UK

"Bobby" wrote:

I'm in a similar position. Have a 2000XP system right now with 512Mb PC2100
RAM. Running a bit hot.

Looking for something to multitask faster (I have lots of open programs and
play music, TV in background).

*Very* tight budget. Have £200 to spend for new set-up (mobo, cpu and ram -
if needed?). Any ideas?

For a new CPU you'll want new RAM - you really do want to match the
CPU and RAM clock frequencies. For example, for an XP3200 (200MHz fsb)
that means PC3200 (DDR400) RAM. You can run with slower RAM and
upgrade it later, but you wouldn't be getting the full performance the
new CPU is capable of. What's the max processor / RAM speed your
current board supports?

Posting your replies under what you are quoting makes the thread
easier to follow, which will encourage more replies.


Tim
--
Guns Don’t Kill People, Rappers Do.

(Al Dykes) wrote:

Buy a machine in the "sweet spot" for price performance today, which
might be a midrange Athlon on a NIC/SOund/Video the motherboard
machine.

I'd agree with that. Look for price/performance rather than latest
and greatest. The difference in performance between middle and top of
the range will hardly be noticeable in most applications and for the
difference in price you could probably afford to throw the PC away in
a year and buy another, which will undoubtedly be more powerful than
top-of-the-range today.

If you just want something for word processing or to surf the 'Web get
the cheapest you can find; even todays entry level is more than
capable for business applications and Internet use. If you're a bit
more demanding then head for somewhere just above mid-range, where the
best price performance is typically a couple of options beneath the
top level.

Spend the money you save on the system on a nice big LCD screen,
and good sound.

Or save the money you'd spend a horrible big LCD screen, get a good
CRT screen and get p*ssed on the spare change.


--
iv Paul iv

Paul Hopwood wrote:

(Al Dykes) wrote:


Buy a machine in the "sweet spot" for price performance today, which
might be a midrange Athlon on a NIC/SOund/Video the motherboard
machine.


I'd agree with that. Look for price/performance rather than latest
and greatest. The difference in performance between middle and top of
the range will hardly be noticeable in most applications and for the
difference in price you could probably afford to throw the PC away in
a year and buy another, which will undoubtedly be more powerful than
top-of-the-range today.

If you just want something for word processing or to surf the 'Web get
the cheapest you can find; even todays entry level is more than
capable for business applications and Internet use. If you're a bit
more demanding then head for somewhere just above mid-range, where the
best price performance is typically a couple of options beneath the
top level.


Spend the money you save on the system on a nice big LCD screen,
and good sound.


Or save the money you'd spend a horrible big LCD screen, get a good
CRT screen and get p*ssed on the spare change.




yes - like I did this summer. upgrade from a 750 athlon to a 2500 athlon
barton, with 256vidram nvidia 5700, 1 gig ram, dvd-burner/cd-burner, 22
inch Sony refurb CRT.............800 bucks. 200 for the monitor

600 bucks for a midrange computer is cheap. 64-bit will remain irrelvant
for another 5 yrs. (or more). The on board memory controller of the
athlon64 is nice (20-percent faster than barton on all things).


But I suggest you buy cheap Barton now - then in three yrs you can buy
cheap again, only that cheap will be a 3.5 Ghz Athlon64 with 4 gigs ram
and 1-gig vid ram, blueray-burner.

--
http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml

http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm


As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged.
And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air
-- however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75)

"It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who
were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out
whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit
criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president
in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law
may say,"
Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch - commenting upon Defense
Department Lawyer
Will Dunham's 56-page legalization of torture memo.

If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against
the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named
George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate
Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or
vote for
the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the
Republican Party.
Ralph Nader - June 2004 - The American Conservative Magazine

"But I believe in torture and I will torture you."
-An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with
an Iraqi prisoner.

"My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed,
our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the
freedom of our country.
-Iraqi Mahdi fighter

"We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came.
One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead
so he wouldn't kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried,
the soldier said: "'No, stop,"
-Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding.

"the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian
Zionists
and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy."
-Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister

"Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton's administration for
the Kosovo military action.'Victory means exit strategy, and it's important
for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,' Bush said."
Houston Chronicle 4/9/99

"Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to
destabilize their country."
Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004

"The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem
of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there's a major
incident and then suddenly say, 'Oh my God, shouldn't we be organized
to deal with this?'"
- Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference
on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001.

"On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use
his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein's regime
the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because
"diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they
would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor."
Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert
Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey
Bergner,
Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman,
William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick,
Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had
Baghdad on their minds."
-philip (usenet)

"I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam,"
-Richard Cheney, Kerry critic.

"I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up
and running
- to be effective - some of its sovereignty will have to be given
back, if I can put it that way,
or limited by them, It's sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they
are going to allow us to exercise
on their behalf and with their permission."
- Powell 4/27/04

"We're trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they
are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things
obviously are not going well. You're going to have good days and bad days."
On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other
moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good
moments."
- Rumsfeld 4/6/04

"I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this
country's gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to
every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on
the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread
of freedom."
~ Bush the Crusader


RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose?

BUSH: No, I'm not going to lose.

RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do?

BUSH: Well, I don't plan on losing. I've got a vision for what I want to
do for the country.
See, I know exactly where I want to lead.................And we got
changing times
here in America, too., 2/8/04


"And that's very important for, I think, the people to understand where
I'm coming from,
to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn't. I'm a war
president.
I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with
war on my mind.
- pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04


"Let's talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that
based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding
these kinds of efforts. He's had years to get good at it and we know
he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons.
And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."
- Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03


"I don't know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the
Iraqis had nuclear weapons."
- Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03


"I think in this case international law
stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)."
- Richard Perle


"He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with
respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project
conventional power against his neighbours."
- Colin Powell February 24 2001


"We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping
him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful."

"He threatens not the United States."

"But I also thought that we had pretty
much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have."

'But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place
for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of
keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying
"look what I got." He hasn't been able to do that.'
- Colin Powell February 26 2001

I say hold out and wait for A64 price drop, and when the new 939 mobo's do
down in price, If you want try a XP-mobile 2500 pair it up with NFS-7 get
that baby oced to 2500 MHZ , get dual channel ddr 400 ( you can also use it
in you later A64 rig) these chips are known to par with P4 3.2 EE at that
config and you can use the extra money for a better vid card or larger
hardrive (maybe SATA Raptor@ 10000k RPM ) :P just my 2 cents.
"gaffo" wrote in message
m...
Paul Hopwood wrote:

(Al Dykes) wrote:


Buy a machine in the "sweet spot" for price performance today, which
might be a midrange Athlon on a NIC/SOund/Video the motherboard
machine.


I'd agree with that. Look for price/performance rather than latest
and greatest. The difference in performance between middle and top of
the range will hardly be noticeable in most applications and for the
difference in price you could probably afford to throw the PC away in
a year and buy another, which will undoubtedly be more powerful than
top-of-the-range today.

If you just want something for word processing or to surf the 'Web get
the cheapest you can find; even todays entry level is more than
capable for business applications and Internet use. If you're a bit
more demanding then head for somewhere just above mid-range, where the
best price performance is typically a couple of options beneath the
top level.


Spend the money you save on the system on a nice big LCD screen,
and good sound.


Or save the money you'd spend a horrible big LCD screen, get a good
CRT screen and get p*ssed on the spare change.




yes - like I did this summer. upgrade from a 750 athlon to a 2500 athlon
barton, with 256vidram nvidia 5700, 1 gig ram, dvd-burner/cd-burner, 22
inch Sony refurb CRT.............800 bucks. 200 for the monitor

600 bucks for a midrange computer is cheap. 64-bit will remain irrelvant
for another 5 yrs. (or more). The on board memory controller of the
athlon64 is nice (20-percent faster than barton on all things).


But I suggest you buy cheap Barton now - then in three yrs you can buy
cheap again, only that cheap will be a 3.5 Ghz Athlon64 with 4 gigs ram
and 1-gig vid ram, blueray-burner.

--
http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml

http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm


As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly
unchanged.
And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air
-- however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75)

"It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who
were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out
whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit
criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president
in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law may
say,"
Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch - commenting upon Defense Department
Lawyer
Will Dunham's 56-page legalization of torture memo.

If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion
against
the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being
named
George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate
Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or vote
for
the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the
Republican Party.
Ralph Nader - June 2004 - The American Conservative Magazine

"But I believe in torture and I will torture you."
-An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with
an Iraqi prisoner.

"My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed,
our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the
freedom of our country.
-Iraqi Mahdi fighter

"We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came.
One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead
so he wouldn't kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried,
the soldier said: "'No, stop,"
-Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding.

"the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian
Zionists
and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy."
-Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister

"Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton's administration for
the Kosovo military action.'Victory means exit strategy, and it's
important
for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,' Bush said."
Houston Chronicle 4/9/99

"Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to
destabilize their country."
Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004

"The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem
of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there's a major
incident and then suddenly say, 'Oh my God, shouldn't we be organized
to deal with this?'"
- Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference
on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001.

"On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to
use
his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein's regime
the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because
"diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they
would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor."
Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert
Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey
Bergner,
Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman,
William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B.
Zoellick,
Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons
had
Baghdad on their minds."
-philip (usenet)

"I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam,"
-Richard Cheney, Kerry critic.

"I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up
and running
- to be effective - some of its sovereignty will have to be given back,
if I can put it that way,
or limited by them, It's sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they
are going to allow us to exercise
on their behalf and with their permission."
- Powell 4/27/04

"We're trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they
are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things
obviously are not going well. You're going to have good days and bad
days."
On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other
moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good
moments."
- Rumsfeld 4/6/04

"I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this
country's gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to
every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on
the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread
of freedom."
~ Bush the Crusader


RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose?

BUSH: No, I'm not going to lose.

RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do?

BUSH: Well, I don't plan on losing. I've got a vision for what I want to
do for the country.
See, I know exactly where I want to lead.................And we got
changing times
here in America, too., 2/8/04


"And that's very important for, I think, the people to understand where
I'm coming from,
to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn't. I'm a war
president.
I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with
war on my mind.
- pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04


"Let's talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that
based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding
these kinds of efforts. He's had years to get good at it and we know
he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons.
And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."
- Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03


"I don't know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the
Iraqis had nuclear weapons."
- Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03


"I think in this case international law
stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)."
- Richard Perle


"He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with
respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project
conventional power against his neighbours."
- Colin Powell February 24 2001


"We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping
him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful."

"He threatens not the United States."

"But I also thought that we had pretty
much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have."

'But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place
for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of
keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying
"look what I got." He hasn't been able to do that.'
- Colin Powell February 26 2001

gaffo wrote:
snip all

Dude, your sig is a bummer, man. As much as I agree with your
political views and frustrations entirely, your sig as it stands
simply has no place on Usenet...it's very unpolite (meaning WAY too
large). Also, at least in this NG (.chips) your political
statements are falling more or less on deaf ears as this group is
populated with a large number of SWM (stupid white men) and even a
few VSWM (V = very). Get my drift?

J.

jack wrote:
gaffo wrote:
snip all

Dude, your sig is a bummer, man. As much as I agree with your
political views and frustrations entirely, your sig as it stands
simply has no place on Usenet...it's very unpolite (meaning WAY too
large). Also, at least in this NG (.chips) your political
statements are falling more or less on deaf ears as this group is
populated with a large number of SWM (stupid white men) and even a
few VSWM (V = very). Get my drift?

J.



I understand. Tony Hill said same.

Since you seem to be in agreement in my political views - then you may
understand that these are Dark Times - not just for some of us but for
the every existance of Liberty and America as we know it. I see Germany
1933, and as such I have a compulsion as an American Citizen and Patriot
to speak out in any and all ways. A duty if you will.


Feel free to *plonk* me it my sign offends.

After Nov2 it won't matter - the sig will go then - regardless of if
Liberty dies that day or lives.

That sig started small two yrs ago and with each lie it grow like
Pinocios nose. Now it is an obscenely obese sig. Sorry, if there were
less lying from the WH and that Regime, the sig would be alot
smaller.........


peace be with you.


--
http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml

http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm


As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged.
And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air
-- however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75)

"It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who
were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out
whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit
criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president
in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law
may say,"
Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch - commenting upon Defense
Department Lawyer
Will Dunham's 56-page legalization of torture memo.

If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against
the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named
George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate
Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or
vote for
the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the
Republican Party.
Ralph Nader - June 2004 - The American Conservative Magazine

"But I believe in torture and I will torture you."
-An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with
an Iraqi prisoner.

"My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed,
our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the
freedom of our country.
-Iraqi Mahdi fighter

"We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came.
One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead
so he wouldn't kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried,
the soldier said: "'No, stop,"
-Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding.

"the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian
Zionists
and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy."
-Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister

"Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton's administration for
the Kosovo military action.'Victory means exit strategy, and it's important
for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,' Bush said."
Houston Chronicle 4/9/99

"Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to
destabilize their country."
Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004

"The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem
of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there's a major
incident and then suddenly say, 'Oh my God, shouldn't we be organized
to deal with this?'"
- Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference
on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001.

"On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use
his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein's regime
the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because
"diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they
would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor."
Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert
Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey
Bergner,
Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman,
William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick,
Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had
Baghdad on their minds."
-philip (usenet)

"I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam,"
-Richard Cheney, Kerry critic.

"I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up
and running
- to be effective - some of its sovereignty will have to be given
back, if I can put it that way,
or limited by them, It's sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they
are going to allow us to exercise
on their behalf and with their permission."
- Powell 4/27/04

"We're trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they
are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things
obviously are not going well. You're going to have good days and bad days."
On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other
moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good
moments."
- Rumsfeld 4/6/04

"I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this
country's gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to
every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on
the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread
of freedom."
~ Bush the Crusader


RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose?

BUSH: No, I'm not going to lose.

RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do?

BUSH: Well, I don't plan on losing. I've got a vision for what I want to
do for the country.
See, I know exactly where I want to lead.................And we got
changing times
here in America, too., 2/8/04


"And that's very important for, I think, the people to understand where
I'm coming from,
to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn't. I'm a war
president.
I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with
war on my mind.
- pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04


"Let's talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that
based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding
these kinds of efforts. He's had years to get good at it and we know
he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons.
And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."
- Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03


"I don't know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the
Iraqis had nuclear weapons."
- Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03


"I think in this case international law
stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)."
- Richard Perle


"He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with
respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project
conventional power against his neighbours."
- Colin Powell February 24 2001


"We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping
him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful."

"He threatens not the United States."

"But I also thought that we had pretty
much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have."

'But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place
for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of
keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying
"look what I got." He hasn't been able to do that.'
- Colin Powell February 26 2001

Dude, get a talkshow on MSNBC. What's the point of putting quotes --
taken out of context -- and posting them to newgroups that have nothing
to do with what you're saying.

gaffo wrote:
jack wrote:

gaffo wrote:
snip all

Dude, your sig is a bummer, man. As much as I agree with your
political views and frustrations entirely, your sig as it stands
simply has no place on Usenet...it's very unpolite (meaning WAY too
large). Also, at least in this NG (.chips) your political
statements are falling more or less on deaf ears as this group is
populated with a large number of SWM (stupid white men) and even a
few VSWM (V = very). Get my drift?

J.



I understand. Tony Hill said same.

Since you seem to be in agreement in my political views - then you may
understand that these are Dark Times - not just for some of us but for
the every existance of Liberty and America as we know it. I see Germany
1933, and as such I have a compulsion as an American Citizen and Patriot
to speak out in any and all ways. A duty if you will.


Feel free to *plonk* me it my sign offends.

After Nov2 it won't matter - the sig will go then - regardless of if
Liberty dies that day or lives.

That sig started small two yrs ago and with each lie it grow like
Pinocios nose. Now it is an obscenely obese sig. Sorry, if there were
less lying from the WH and that Regime, the sig would be alot
smaller.........


peace be with you.