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#21
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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:27:47 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
wrote: Nope, there are ZERO nice new fanless ones. The highest quality, best specs and longest lasting PSU are all actively cooled. Effective passive cooling for a modern system will require such large passive 'sinks that it won't come near fitting into a PS/2 size allocation per the PSU casing or system chassis. Best attempt is when huge fins stick out the back of system, but even then there is no chance PSU will last as long unless quite specifically made with different spec and type components inside, which none have been due to greater cost. Some I saw said 3 year warranty :-) And the thermaltake (I think) ones have a thing out the back. But you're ignoring the cost difference and possibly the exemption of liability to system component damage. Consider this example: I sell you a 9V battery for $150. I warrant it to power your system for 3 years. Of course the product is unfit for advertised use per it's specs, but so are many generic psu. Of course it won't, so when you try it the battery fails (hopefully nothing else does) and you return battery to me. A month or two later (maybe longer) you get new 9V battery in the mail. This goes on over and over and after 3 years I've still retained a profit but you still don't have a viable power solution. Granted this is an absurd extreme but goes to show that a warranty is not an indicator of expected lifespan. MTBF "could" be in a perfect world but this one isn't so (perfect). Keep in mind that a decent power supply will last close to a decade, 3 year warranty should only be a factor for a low-end unit, insufficient capacity for the system, defect or failure fairly isolated from the design of PSU. 3 years is very short lifespan for a name-brand PSU that typically costs much less per same true wattage. |
#22
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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:57:26 -0700, "Ed Light"
wrote: "kony" wrote Nope, there are ZERO nice new fanless ones. Is this nice? http://thermaltake.com/purepower/w00...fanlesspfc.htm Pretty pictures but I'll refrain from making assumptions without more detail of it's design. I do notice that it (PSU) has a fairly low 5V amperage rating, do not thing it would be suitable for a system using 200W+ of power. And this (not a psu) ? http://thermaltake.com/coolers/cl-p0...fanless103.htm It could certainly be an effective cooler provided ambient airflow is sufficient, but it does nothing to cool anything else, there is still a need for a minimal amount of flow in the chassis. |
#23
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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:30:18 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
wrote: Water cooling does not eliminate the need for fans, only reduces amount of flow needed. Noise of water cooler eclipses that fan flow noise difference to the extent that water cooling does not make a system quieter except if compared to a very poorly implemented air-cooling design. In other words, with same or less time and less expense and risk the air-cooled solution is quieter, more dependable, cheaper, safer. Whole world doesn't use fans on a lark. The water cooler is completely silent. And no I don't need fans. The mac cube was designed without fans. Water cooler has no pump? If it has a pump, "inaudible" would be a better description than completely silent. Fans can also be inaudible, and while inaudible, can keep OTHER components in the system cooler than the water cooling since it only focuses on specific components. MAC cube is a different design, not an alteration of a design meant to use fans. |
#24
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"kony" wrote http://thermaltake.com/purepower/w00...fanlesspfc.htm Pretty pictures but I'll refrain from making assumptions without more detail of it's design. I do notice that it (PSU) has a fairly low 5V amperage rating, do not thing it would be suitable for a system using 200W+ of power. Yes, only 15A on the 12v. Not for a high-end gamer. But other than that, it might do. I'm watching for a review on http://www.silentpcreview.com/ http://thermaltake.com/coolers/cl-p0...fanless103.htm It could certainly be an effective cooler provided ambient airflow is sufficient, They say you must have a case fan. Imagine a 35w mobile XP 2200 running at 1.35 volts 2.1 mhz. -- Ed Light Smiley :-/ MS Smiley :-\ Send spam to the FTC at Thanks, robots. |
#25
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kony wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:27:47 +0100, "Peter Hucker" wrote: Nope, there are ZERO nice new fanless ones. The highest quality, best specs and longest lasting PSU are all actively cooled. Effective passive cooling for a modern system will require such large passive 'sinks that it won't come near fitting into a PS/2 size allocation per the PSU casing or system chassis. Best attempt is when huge fins stick out the back of system, but even then there is no chance PSU will last as long unless quite specifically made with different spec and type components inside, which none have been due to greater cost. Some I saw said 3 year warranty :-) And the thermaltake (I think) ones have a thing out the back. But you're ignoring the cost difference and possibly the exemption of liability to system component damage. He may be, but then you seem to be presuming things not in evidence. Consider this example: I sell you a 9V battery for $150. Good luck. LOL I warrant it to power your system for 3 years. Second big mistake. I mean, a ridiculous price on a device, and a warranty, that is clearly unfit for the intended purpose: you're out of business already, even before the lawyers lined up to sue. Of course the product is unfit for advertised use per it's specs, but so are many generic psu. Your device being 'unfit' is prima facia. Your claim that the others are is merely opinion based on lord knows what. Of course it won't, so when you try it the battery fails (hopefully nothing else does) and you return battery to me. A month or two later (maybe longer) you get new 9V battery in the mail. This goes on over and over and after 3 years I've still retained a profit but you still don't have a viable power solution. Granted this is an absurd extreme Unfortunately, it is so absurd as to be of no illustrative value because it is plainly impossible for the example to even exist nor does it have any reasonable relationship to the 'real world' situation. but goes to show that a warranty is not an indicator of expected lifespan. There is some merit to the conclusion but none in using that analogy to arrive at it. MTBF "could" be in a perfect world but this one isn't so (perfect). Keep in mind that a decent power supply will last close to a decade, 3 year warranty should only be a factor for a low-end unit, Warranty's are, in general, to cover infant mortality failures (which can be affected by quality) that can happen in any device. Beyond that they are often marketing tools (although not 'cost free') for an 'image'. Manufacturers obviously don't want the warranty period to extend into end of life, though. insufficient capacity for the system, defect or failure fairly isolated from the design of PSU. 3 years is very short lifespan for a name-brand PSU that typically costs much less per same true wattage. The warranty period isn't 'lifespan' nor is it intended to be. |
#26
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kony wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:57:26 -0700, "Ed Light" wrote: "kony" wrote Nope, there are ZERO nice new fanless ones. Is this nice? http://thermaltake.com/purepower/w00...fanlesspfc.htm Pretty pictures but I'll refrain from making assumptions without more detail of it's design. I do notice that it (PSU) has a fairly low 5V amperage rating, do not thing it would be suitable for a system using 200W+ of power. And this (not a psu) ? http://thermaltake.com/coolers/cl-p0...fanless103.htm It could certainly be an effective cooler provided ambient airflow is sufficient, but it does nothing to cool anything else, there is still a need for a minimal amount of flow in the chassis. I had a similar first impression but I'm still trying to 'divine', since there's no explanation provided for it, the purpose of the heatsink bulge intruding on the interior side. Makes me wonder if it isn't intended as a heatpipe transfer of interior case heat to the external convective cooler in an attempt to simulate the more traditional PSU fan's effect. (Especially since they claim "all heat" goes to the outside, which would make an 'internal' heatsink rather contradictory as a dissipater) |
#27
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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:37:51 GMT, kony wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:28:32 +0100, "Peter Hucker" wrote: Your conclusion was correct that there's more to cooling a power supply than just keeping the regulators cool. The rest of the system does not have fans! And even a low speed one in the PSU would be irritating. What is irritating about a fan you can't hear? There is no such thing. Comparing water cooling to worst-possible scenarios for fan cooling is pointless, we could as easily compare to worst-case scenarios with water pumps. I did not claim you should use a high RPM fan. Personally, I have no systems here nor that i've sold in past few years that have even a single fan over 3000RPM and usually quite below that. Once exception being video card fans, IF the warranty on the card needs preserved, if that is more important to owner than noise reduction of card then stock cooling solution must be retained. First thing i do on cards I buy for my own use is replace stock fan'sink after confirming card works properly, not defective/DOA. Mine have Zalman passive heatsinks - the ones with the huge copper fins. Bottom line is that unless system is very _highly_ overclocked, water cooling is the noiser way to cool a system. Pump creates as much noise as very low RPM fan (like a panaflo or papst), Rubbish. I can only hear my water pump if I place my ear on the side of the radiator. The pump is underwater, inside the radiator, all sound is absorbed. then either giant passive radiator is used No problem, hiden away behind my desk in an otherwise unusable space. or fan is still needed on radiator, plus motherboard power regulation still needs airflow. Nah, that's happy with convection. As incredible as it may seem, with a good 'normal' heatsink you have same need for low RPM fan near that heatsink whether there is a water block on CPU or not. You can operate without fan but temps go up, in a region with a very clear temp vs lifespan degradation (capacitors). The only things that are hot are the 2 CPUs (watercooled), the northbridge (watercooled), the memory (large passive heatsink), and the graphics cards (large passive heatsinks). -- *****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing http://www.petersparrots.com 93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com 1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid What do you call kinky sex with chocolate? S&M&M |
#28
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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:48:45 GMT, kony wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:27:47 +0100, "Peter Hucker" wrote: Nope, there are ZERO nice new fanless ones. The highest quality, best specs and longest lasting PSU are all actively cooled. Effective passive cooling for a modern system will require such large passive 'sinks that it won't come near fitting into a PS/2 size allocation per the PSU casing or system chassis. Best attempt is when huge fins stick out the back of system, but even then there is no chance PSU will last as long unless quite specifically made with different spec and type components inside, which none have been due to greater cost. Some I saw said 3 year warranty :-) And the thermaltake (I think) ones have a thing out the back. But you're ignoring the cost difference and possibly the exemption of liability to system component damage. Consider this example: I sell you a 9V battery for $150. I warrant it to power your system for 3 years. Of course the product is unfit for advertised use per it's specs, but so are many generic psu. Of course it won't, so when you try it the battery fails (hopefully nothing else does) and you return battery to me. A month or two later (maybe longer) you get new 9V battery in the mail. This goes on over and over and after 3 years I've still retained a profit but you still don't have a viable power solution. Granted this is an absurd extreme but goes to show that a warranty is not an indicator of expected lifespan. MTBF "could" be in a perfect world but this one isn't so (perfect). Doesn't bother me. I have the use of a silent power supply for 3 years. Anyway we have the sale of goods act, and I'd get my money back after repeated failure. Keep in mind that a decent power supply will last close to a decade, 3 year warranty should only be a factor for a low-end unit, insufficient capacity for the system, defect or failure fairly isolated from the design of PSU. 3 years is very short lifespan for a name-brand PSU that typically costs much less per same true wattage. I probably won't have it in 10 years. People (well not me anyway) don't stick to the same computer parts! -- *****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing http://www.petersparrots.com 93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com 1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid A high I.Q is like a Jeep. You still get stuck, just further from help. |
#29
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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:55:34 GMT, kony wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:30:18 +0100, "Peter Hucker" wrote: Water cooling does not eliminate the need for fans, only reduces amount of flow needed. Noise of water cooler eclipses that fan flow noise difference to the extent that water cooling does not make a system quieter except if compared to a very poorly implemented air-cooling design. In other words, with same or less time and less expense and risk the air-cooled solution is quieter, more dependable, cheaper, safer. Whole world doesn't use fans on a lark. The water cooler is completely silent. And no I don't need fans. The mac cube was designed without fans. Water cooler has no pump? If it has a pump, "inaudible" would be a better description than completely silent. As I said in the other reply, it is SILENT unless my ear is on the radiator and I am crouched uncomfortably under the desk!!! Fans can also be inaudible, Never ever found one! and while inaudible, can keep OTHER components in the system cooler than the water cooling since it only focuses on specific components. MAC cube is a different design, not an alteration of a design meant to use fans. So what? -- *****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing http://www.petersparrots.com 93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com 1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid Fellows, it's often easier to just give in to your wife. I mean, what's your word against thousands of hers? |
#30
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On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:33:29 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
wrote: On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:37:51 GMT, kony wrote: On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:28:32 +0100, "Peter Hucker" wrote: Your conclusion was correct that there's more to cooling a power supply than just keeping the regulators cool. The rest of the system does not have fans! And even a low speed one in the PSU would be irritating. What is irritating about a fan you can't hear? There is no such thing. You mean you haven't hear one... which is the whole point. Plenty of people do it, there are even articles and websites devoted to it. Generally where many people fail is to simply buy a "low" RPM fan instead of using fan controller and using MORE fans so that each only needs be slightly higher RPM than minimal value to spin up at all, or they use resistors which limit current, resulting in higher voltage during operation, rather than other methods. It is not very difficult to have a hard drive as the only audible part in a system, provided this was the plan all along and suitable case was chosen or modified towards this end. Comparing water cooling to worst-possible scenarios for fan cooling is pointless, we could as easily compare to worst-case scenarios with water pumps. I did not claim you should use a high RPM fan. Personally, I have no systems here nor that i've sold in past few years that have even a single fan over 3000RPM and usually quite below that. Once exception being video card fans, IF the warranty on the card needs preserved, if that is more important to owner than noise reduction of card then stock cooling solution must be retained. First thing i do on cards I buy for my own use is replace stock fan'sink after confirming card works properly, not defective/DOA. Mine have Zalman passive heatsinks - the ones with the huge copper fins. Fancy but they decrease lifespan of video card for same reason as with power supply, that not only the highest heat part(s) needs airflow. Reducing CPU/GPU/Chipset temps is fine for short-term stability but the long-term stress takes it's toll. Bottom line is that unless system is very _highly_ overclocked, water cooling is the noiser way to cool a system. Pump creates as much noise as very low RPM fan (like a panaflo or papst), Rubbish. I can only hear my water pump if I place my ear on the side of the radiator. The pump is underwater, inside the radiator, all sound is absorbed. .... and your system failed, didn't it? So what if other parts haven't failed YET? There is a clear relationship between heat and lifespan, and your system CANNOT have most of not all components not under a water block, running as cool as when an inaudible fan in employed. I have systems with inaudible fans still running fine, not a single part has failed. then either giant passive radiator is used No problem, hiden away behind my desk in an otherwise unusable space. Excactly where you don't want to put it since ambient airflow is more important for a passive radiator. or fan is still needed on radiator, plus motherboard power regulation still needs airflow. Nah, that's happy with convection. You would like to think so but all the evidence is to the contrary. As incredible as it may seem, with a good 'normal' heatsink you have same need for low RPM fan near that heatsink whether there is a water block on CPU or not. You can operate without fan but temps go up, in a region with a very clear temp vs lifespan degradation (capacitors). The only things that are hot are the 2 CPUs (watercooled), the northbridge (watercooled), the memory (large passive heatsink), and the graphics cards (large passive heatsinks). You still don't get it. The entire system has a higher ambient temp due to your (lack of) airflow. It is not only the GPU, memory, CPU, and northbridge that need cooling. Other parts don't need nearly as much, but the need is still there when they're all enclosed in a fanless system. |
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