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#21
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"Vin" wrote in message ... hi peter, i can't really pinpoint any reason for the increased cpu temps since the case mods were done after a lot of research -- my case currently has 1 rear exhaust fan, 1 psu exhaust, 1 front/bottom intake, 3 side panel intake/suckholes (1 bang opposite the cpu cooler with a duct, 1 blowing air onto the agp slot, and 1 towards the hdd area on the bottom/front) and 1 top blowhole exhausting hot air. The positions were chosen carefully and i've also tried to balance the intake and outtake fans. Thus i can't really understand why the temp delta (cpu to case) is much higher than before (24C vs 18C previously). but do bear in mind, that the actual CPU temperature is about the same now with the case closed as it was with the case open and a huge floor fan blowing into it -- it's just the cpu-case delta that has gone out of whack, which could suggest the heatsink ain't doing it's job well, even though the case is cooler now. vin I based my comments on personal experience with adding blowholes, etc with little positive effect. In the end, I've found that getting a good large case (I use Antec SOHO's) with two 80mm exhaust fan mounts top-rear (just below the PSU and directly behind the HSF) provide the best cooling with minimum noise. I've tried all sorts of combinations of cool air intake, but the critical ingredient (based on my limited experience - ~ 50 systems built for myself and others) is getting the hot air coming off the HSF out of the case. I've found that once you set up to exhaust that hot air, intake pretty much takes care of itself. I use a single 80mm intake, bottom-front. No case-side fans at all. Using 2500+ Bartons on Asus and Epox mobos, clocked to 200x11 and Vantec Aeroflow HSF's, my systems run at 27 - 28C case and max 44 - 46C CPU temps in an air-conditioned home at ~ 24C. Admittedly, my evidence is anecdotal, but from the first time I got a case with the two exhaust fans, all my temperature problems ceased. Guess you could say I'm an exhaust fan fan. In your description, you upped the intake and didn't increase the exhaust flow. |
#22
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Your evidence is confirmed by numbers. A single fan of
airflow - one fan blowing in and the other out - is more than sufficient to cool any standard computer system. The only reason why this would not be sufficient is a hotspot or a system that consumes well over 500 watts. Too many think that more air means that much more cooling - a direct relationship. They don't first learn the numbers. Number say the bottleneck in CPU cooling is mostly in the heatsink assembly. Most important number is "degree C per watt" for that heatsink assembly - not more fans - more CFM. Your evidence is now more than anecdotal. It works experimentally and is in agreement with the fundamental theory - two conditions necessary for science. If a computer fails in a 70 degree room, then the computer has defective hardware. A computer with the airflow of one 80 mm fan must work just fine in a 100 degree F room. Too many think heat is the reason for failure. Semiconductors that cannot work at that higher temperature are defective now and will probably be failing more often in the near future at 70 degrees. Too many blame heat only because they first do not learn the numbers. Heat is how one finds defective semiconductors before the warranty expires. Peter van der Goes wrote: I based my comments on personal experience with adding blowholes, etc with little positive effect. In the end, I've found that getting a good large case (I use Antec SOHO's) with two 80mm exhaust fan mounts top-rear (just below the PSU and directly behind the HSF) provide the best cooling with minimum noise. I've tried all sorts of combinations of cool air intake, but the critical ingredient (based on my limited experience - ~ 50 systems built for myself and others) is getting the hot air coming off the HSF out of the case. I've found that once you set up to exhaust that hot air, intake pretty much takes care of itself. I use a single 80mm intake, bottom-front. No case-side fans at all. Using 2500+ Bartons on Asus and Epox mobos, clocked to 200x11 and Vantec Aeroflow HSF's, my systems run at 27 - 28C case and max 44 - 46C CPU temps in an air-conditioned home at ~ 24C. Admittedly, my evidence is anecdotal, but from the first time I got a case with the two exhaust fans, all my temperature problems ceased. Guess you could say I'm an exhaust fan fan. In your description, you upped the intake and didn't increase the exhaust flow. |
#23
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A bare heatsink, properly machined, is more than sufficient
to cool a CPU. If thermal compound results in more than single digit temperature decrease, then heatsink is defective. It probably was not sold with the all so necessary "degree C per watt" parameter. Therefore they could not be sued for failing to meet a specification - for selling a defective product. That spec is the first thing one seeks when buying a heatsink. If the heatsink was so bad that it did not mate properly to CPU - needed thermal compound - then heatsink was not even machined and it would not provide a "degree C per watt" spec. Thermal compound only reduces CPU temperature by single digits IF heatsink is acceptable. Thermal compound must be as thin as possible. Thermal compound works better than pads because most of heatsink must make contact direct to CPU - no thermal compound between. Thermal compound only fills microscopic holes between points of direct contact. Thermal compound and pads do not conduct as well as a direct to CPU connection. And thermal compound must be applied so sparingly as to only spread out in the center half of the CPU - where all heat is transferred from CPU to heatsink. No thermal compound should be observed in seam between heatsink and CPU. If it is squeezing out, then far too much thermal compound was applied - and compound is keeping heatsink from directly contacting CPU. Si wrote: I have an AMD 2000+ and was getting quite high temperatures reporting from the bios (around 60c), so I took the large copper flower off and cleaned it up with alcohol and stuck a thermal pad on. (this was advice from an artical I read about how difficult it is to get a consistant layer across the processor with paste). After warming up the pc I had crank my fan flat out to keep it down to 70-75c!!!! That just didn't work at all. I bought some silicon paste, cleaned it all up again......now it's running 52c with a slow fan speed, ready to overclock again. My system temp is 32c with a large heatsink and for reference, it's about 21c here in UK. What I've learnt is that it is important to get the grease as perfect as you can manage. I used a razor blade to smooth the grease over the heatsink, made sure I didn't put my fingers on any surface after I cleaned it and made sure the pressure from the clamp on the heatsink was directly over the CPU centre. That lot is so important, it made 20c diference!! so take your time with it. I'm sure there are other greases that would do a better job, but it's good enough for me. Now to see if I can get 1.6G to 1.7 without melting it again!! Si |
#24
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w_tom wrote:
A bare heatsink, properly machined, is more than sufficient to cool a CPU. If thermal compound results in more than single digit temperature decrease, then heatsink is defective. It probably was not sold with the all so necessary "degree C per watt" parameter. Therefore they could not be sued for failing to meet a specification - for selling a defective product. That spec is the first thing one seeks when buying a heatsink. If the heatsink was so bad that it did not mate properly to CPU - needed thermal compound - then heatsink was not even machined and it would not provide a "degree C per watt" spec. Thermal compound only reduces CPU temperature by single digits IF heatsink is acceptable. This must explain why not a single heatsink manufacturer provides their heatsinks without thermal compound/pad and both Intel and AMD emphatically state thermal compound must be applied and provide instructions on how to do so. Thermal compound must be as thin as possible. Thermal compound works better than pads because most of heatsink must make contact direct to CPU - no thermal compound between. Thermal compound only fills microscopic holes between points of direct contact. Thermal compound and pads do not conduct as well as a direct to CPU connection. And thermal compound must be applied so sparingly as to only spread out in the center half of the CPU - where all heat is transferred from CPU to heatsink. No thermal compound should be observed in seam between heatsink and CPU. If it is squeezing out, then far too much thermal compound was applied - and compound is keeping heatsink from directly contacting CPU. Si wrote: I have an AMD 2000+ and was getting quite high temperatures reporting from the bios (around 60c), so I took the large copper flower off and cleaned it up with alcohol and stuck a thermal pad on. (this was advice from an artical I read about how difficult it is to get a consistant layer across the processor with paste). After warming up the pc I had crank my fan flat out to keep it down to 70-75c!!!! That just didn't work at all. I bought some silicon paste, cleaned it all up again......now it's running 52c with a slow fan speed, ready to overclock again. My system temp is 32c with a large heatsink and for reference, it's about 21c here in UK. What I've learnt is that it is important to get the grease as perfect as you can manage. I used a razor blade to smooth the grease over the heatsink, made sure I didn't put my fingers on any surface after I cleaned it and made sure the pressure from the clamp on the heatsink was directly over the CPU centre. That lot is so important, it made 20c diference!! so take your time with it. I'm sure there are other greases that would do a better job, but it's good enough for me. Now to see if I can get 1.6G to 1.7 without melting it again!! Si |
#25
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Arthur Hagen wrote:
"AnthonyR" wrote in message ... What do you mean the chemist didn't have alcohol? Vin said that the chemists said they didn't have *isopropyl* alcohol (isopropanol). Alcohol is at least a dozen different things, from methanol to glycerin. (Also note that when he said chemist, he almost certainly meant what we call a drugstore here in the US.) Do you not have rubbing alcohol in your house? here in the states every house has a bottle, its used to clean wounds and stuff. We sure don't have a bottle. Is it mandatory? What do you use for scraped knee's? Iodine tinctures, witch hazel, hydrogen peroxide, antibacterial salves and lotions, or a whole lot of other stuff. Including other alcohols. Using isopropanol as rubbing alcohol might be a regional thing, because I'm used to ethanol. Denatured Alcohol vs. Isopropanol Denatured Alcohol is ethyl alcohol, or ethanol, containing traces of benzene. While ethenol, in it's natural form, is a source of combustible fuel, it contains trace amounts of water making it less efficient for burning than in it's denatured form. Introducing Benzene during the distillation process drives out the water contained in ethanol creating a very pure and potent fuel source - denatured alcohol. NOTE: Ethanol is the alcohol consumed in alcoholic beverages. However, once denatured, ethanol becomes toxic and can cause blindness or death if consumed. Rubbing Alcohol is isopropanol. It has a completely different molecular structure than ethanol and often contains up to 30% water. Though it is flammable it is a poor choice for fuel. Isopropanol is also used for disinfection, and is often the ingredient in the swab your skin is given before you receive a shot at the doctor's office. Common thinking is that you should give isopropanol ten minutes to fully kill any germs. Mixed with ammonia, it makes a great glass cleaner. On its own, it is a great solvent for many cleaning jobs. Most computer users will be familiar with the substance as a way to clean mouse balls, clean screens and keyboards, and in a high enough concentration, clean magnetic drive heads in tape and disk drives. ---- In my experience "rubbing alcohol" has always been isopropyl although I can find an occasional references to ethanol as an alternate, but it's then called Ethyl Rubbing Alcohol in the ones I found. I did a quick survey of friends scattered from New York and Massachusetts to Florida and Texas and all said isopropyl, not to mention it was in their medicine cabinet for a quick check of the label. See http://www.med-chem.com/Products/alcohols.htm 70% Ethyl Alcohol (Ethyl Rubbing Alcohol) Alcohol used as a disinfectant for thermometers and as a skin antiseptic. 70% ethyl alcohol is meant for external use only 70% Isopropyl Alcohol (Rubbing Alcohol) Alcohol most commonly used for rubdown and general massage purposes. It is used as an antiseptic for simple wound disinfection. 70% isopropyl alcohol is meant for external use only. Obviously that concept is behind the other poster's question on what folks use for "scraped knee's." I, as you mentioned, have a number of other disinfectants as well but I suspect the reason 'rubbing alcohol', meaning isopropyl, is so often mentioned is it's historic propensity to 'always be there', hence handy, due to it's other varied uses and low cost. If using denatured ethanol on computer parts, make sure you don't use the kind that leaves a fatty residue. Regards, |
#26
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#28
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Strontium wrote:
- David Maynard stood up at show-n-tell, in , and said: Arthur Hagen wrote: "AnthonyR" wrote in message ... What do you mean the chemist didn't have alcohol? Vin said that the chemists said they didn't have *isopropyl* alcohol (isopropanol). Alcohol is at least a dozen different things, from methanol to glycerin. (Also note that when he said chemist, he almost certainly meant what we call a drugstore here in the US.) Do you not have rubbing alcohol in your house? here in the states every house has a bottle, its used to clean wounds and stuff. We sure don't have a bottle. Is it mandatory? What do you use for scraped knee's? Iodine tinctures, witch hazel, hydrogen peroxide, antibacterial salves and lotions, or a whole lot of other stuff. Including other alcohols. Using isopropanol as rubbing alcohol might be a regional thing, because I'm used to ethanol. Denatured Alcohol vs. Isopropanol Denatured Alcohol is ethyl alcohol, or ethanol, containing traces of benzene. While ethenol, in it's natural form, is a source of combustible fuel, it contains trace amounts of water making it less efficient for burning than in it's denatured form. Introducing Benzene during the distillation process drives out the water contained in ethanol creating a very pure and potent fuel source - denatured alcohol. NOTE: Ethanol is the alcohol consumed in alcoholic beverages. However, once denatured, ethanol becomes toxic and can cause blindness or death if consumed. You are confusing this with Methanol (wood alcohol). Denatured alcohol (benzene dirtied ethanol) will not cause blindness. Death? Perhaps, if enough is consumed. More than likely, though, cancer as well as a multitude of other health problems.. Having worked with Benzenes for many years, I think I can attest to this. It's not my confusion; I cut and pasted that from a web site and didn't pay attention to the 'note'. My comments were after the ------ separator. Anyone who watches enough old prohibition period movies knows the problem with "wood alcy" snip -- Strontium "It's no surprise, to me. I am my own worst enemy. `Cause every now, and then, I kick the livin' **** `outta me." - Lit |
#29
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David Maynard stood up at show-n-tell, in , and said: Strontium wrote: - David Maynard stood up at show-n-tell, in , and said: snip Iodine tinctures, witch hazel, hydrogen peroxide, antibacterial salves and lotions, or a whole lot of other stuff. Including other alcohols. Using isopropanol as rubbing alcohol might be a regional thing, because I'm used to ethanol. Denatured Alcohol vs. Isopropanol Denatured Alcohol is ethyl alcohol, or ethanol, containing traces of benzene. While ethenol, in it's natural form, is a source of combustible fuel, it contains trace amounts of water making it less efficient for burning than in it's denatured form. Introducing Benzene during the distillation process drives out the water contained in ethanol creating a very pure and potent fuel source - denatured alcohol. NOTE: Ethanol is the alcohol consumed in alcoholic beverages. However, once denatured, ethanol becomes toxic and can cause blindness or death if consumed. You are confusing this with Methanol (wood alcohol). Denatured alcohol (benzene dirtied ethanol) will not cause blindness. Death? Perhaps, if enough is consumed. More than likely, though, cancer as well as a multitude of other health problems.. Having worked with Benzenes for many years, I think I can attest to this. It's not my confusion; I cut and pasted that from a web site and didn't pay attention to the 'note'. My comments were after the ------ separator. Anyone who watches enough old prohibition period movies knows the problem with "wood alcy" Ahhhhhh! Didn't see your "Pasted from etc, etc..." disclaimer snip -- Strontium "It's no surprise, to me. I am my own worst enemy. `Cause every now, and then, I kick the livin' **** `outta me." - Lit |
#30
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Intel and AMD do not demand that everyone use thermal
compound. They say to ill informed hobbyists to install thermal compound because experience has demonstrated that "degree C per watt" is too complex for some assemblers. For those with some experience, any heatsink without the "degree C per watt" parameter is suspect - at best. But then, since thermal compound is so cheap (tens of times less than what the overhyped Arctic Silver costs), then why not provide thermal compound so that the bad CPU installation does not cause permanent failure. Thermal compound is good compensation for the ill informed computer system assembler. In one Intel paper for engineers, the negative effects of thermal compound are discussed. But that paper is beyond scope of this discussion. A properly machine heatsink without thermal compound will only cause single digit temperature decrease on CPU ... IF heatsink is properly machined. If thermal compound results in better temperature decreases, then one must ask how improperly a heatsink was applied OR how poor the heatsink really is. If you dispute this, then the theoretical numbers can be posted, obviously, OR examples provided from scientifically controlled experiments. In the meantime, decades of experience says that thermal compound results in only single digit temperature reduction if the heatsink is properly machined. This is science that was old even thirty years ago. Why promote the hype of Arctic Silver, et al? They already sell a product that is grossly profitable. Instead promote the well proven science. David Maynard wrote: w_tom wrote: A bare heatsink, properly machined, is more than sufficient to cool a CPU. If thermal compound results in more than defective. It probably was not sold with the all so necessary "degree C per watt" parameter. Therefore they could not be sued for failing to meet a specification - for selling a defective product. That spec is the first thing one seeks when buying a heatsink. If the heatsink was so bad that it did not mate properly to CPU - needed thermal compound - then heatsink was not even machined and it would not provide a "degree C per watt" spec. Thermal compound only reduces CPU temperature by single digits IF heatsink is acceptable. This must explain why not a single heatsink manufacturer provides their heatsinks without thermal compound/pad and both Intel and AMD emphatically state thermal compound must be applied and provide instructions on how to do so. |
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