A computer components & hardware forum. HardwareBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » HardwareBanter forum » Processors » Overclocking AMD Processors
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Thermal pad or Thermal paste?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old September 5th 03, 01:55 PM
Peter van der Goes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Vin" wrote in message
...
hi peter,

i can't really pinpoint any reason for the increased cpu temps since the
case mods were done after a lot of research -- my case currently has 1

rear
exhaust fan, 1 psu exhaust, 1 front/bottom intake, 3 side panel
intake/suckholes (1 bang opposite the cpu cooler with a duct, 1 blowing

air
onto the agp slot, and 1 towards the hdd area on the bottom/front) and 1

top
blowhole exhausting hot air. The positions were chosen carefully and i've
also tried to balance the intake and outtake fans.

Thus i can't really understand why the temp delta (cpu to case) is much
higher than before (24C vs 18C previously). but do bear in mind, that the
actual CPU temperature is about the same now with the case closed as it

was
with the case open and a huge floor fan blowing into it -- it's just the
cpu-case delta that has gone out of whack, which could suggest the

heatsink
ain't doing it's job well, even though the case is cooler now.

vin

I based my comments on personal experience with adding blowholes, etc with
little positive effect.
In the end, I've found that getting a good large case (I use Antec SOHO's)
with two 80mm exhaust fan mounts top-rear (just below the PSU and directly
behind the HSF) provide the best cooling with minimum noise. I've tried all
sorts of combinations of cool air intake, but the critical ingredient (based
on my limited experience - ~ 50 systems built for myself and others) is
getting the hot air coming off the HSF out of the case. I've found that once
you set up to exhaust that hot air, intake pretty much takes care of itself.
I use a single 80mm intake, bottom-front. No case-side fans at all. Using
2500+ Bartons on Asus and Epox mobos, clocked to 200x11 and Vantec Aeroflow
HSF's, my systems run at 27 - 28C case and max 44 - 46C CPU temps in an
air-conditioned home at ~ 24C.
Admittedly, my evidence is anecdotal, but from the first time I got a case
with the two exhaust fans, all my temperature problems ceased. Guess you
could say I'm an exhaust fan fan.
In your description, you upped the intake and didn't increase the exhaust
flow.


  #22  
Old September 5th 03, 02:14 PM
w_tom
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Your evidence is confirmed by numbers. A single fan of
airflow - one fan blowing in and the other out - is more than
sufficient to cool any standard computer system. The only
reason why this would not be sufficient is a hotspot or a
system that consumes well over 500 watts.

Too many think that more air means that much more cooling -
a direct relationship. They don't first learn the numbers.
Number say the bottleneck in CPU cooling is mostly in the
heatsink assembly. Most important number is "degree C per
watt" for that heatsink assembly - not more fans - more CFM.

Your evidence is now more than anecdotal. It works
experimentally and is in agreement with the fundamental theory
- two conditions necessary for science.

If a computer fails in a 70 degree room, then the computer
has defective hardware. A computer with the airflow of one 80
mm fan must work just fine in a 100 degree F room. Too many
think heat is the reason for failure. Semiconductors that
cannot work at that higher temperature are defective now and
will probably be failing more often in the near future at 70
degrees. Too many blame heat only because they first do not
learn the numbers. Heat is how one finds defective
semiconductors before the warranty expires.

Peter van der Goes wrote:
I based my comments on personal experience with adding blowholes, etc with
little positive effect.
In the end, I've found that getting a good large case (I use Antec SOHO's)
with two 80mm exhaust fan mounts top-rear (just below the PSU and directly
behind the HSF) provide the best cooling with minimum noise. I've tried all
sorts of combinations of cool air intake, but the critical ingredient (based
on my limited experience - ~ 50 systems built for myself and others) is
getting the hot air coming off the HSF out of the case. I've found that once
you set up to exhaust that hot air, intake pretty much takes care of itself.
I use a single 80mm intake, bottom-front. No case-side fans at all. Using
2500+ Bartons on Asus and Epox mobos, clocked to 200x11 and Vantec Aeroflow
HSF's, my systems run at 27 - 28C case and max 44 - 46C CPU temps in an
air-conditioned home at ~ 24C.
Admittedly, my evidence is anecdotal, but from the first time I got a case
with the two exhaust fans, all my temperature problems ceased. Guess you
could say I'm an exhaust fan fan.
In your description, you upped the intake and didn't increase the exhaust
flow.

  #23  
Old September 5th 03, 02:20 PM
w_tom
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

A bare heatsink, properly machined, is more than sufficient
to cool a CPU. If thermal compound results in more than
single digit temperature decrease, then heatsink is
defective. It probably was not sold with the all so necessary
"degree C per watt" parameter. Therefore they could not be
sued for failing to meet a specification - for selling a
defective product.

That spec is the first thing one seeks when buying a
heatsink. If the heatsink was so bad that it did not mate
properly to CPU - needed thermal compound - then heatsink was
not even machined and it would not provide a "degree C per
watt" spec. Thermal compound only reduces CPU temperature by
single digits IF heatsink is acceptable.

Thermal compound must be as thin as possible. Thermal
compound works better than pads because most of heatsink must
make contact direct to CPU - no thermal compound between.
Thermal compound only fills microscopic holes between points
of direct contact. Thermal compound and pads do not conduct
as well as a direct to CPU connection. And thermal compound
must be applied so sparingly as to only spread out in the
center half of the CPU - where all heat is transferred from
CPU to heatsink. No thermal compound should be observed in
seam between heatsink and CPU. If it is squeezing out, then
far too much thermal compound was applied - and compound is
keeping heatsink from directly contacting CPU.

Si wrote:
I have an AMD 2000+ and was getting quite high temperatures reporting from
the bios (around 60c), so I took the large copper flower off and cleaned it
up with alcohol and stuck a thermal pad on. (this was advice from an
artical I read about how difficult it is to get a consistant layer across
the processor with paste). After warming up the pc I had crank my fan flat
out to keep it down to 70-75c!!!! That just didn't work at all.
I bought some silicon paste, cleaned it all up again......now it's running
52c with a slow fan speed, ready to overclock again. My system temp is 32c
with a large heatsink and for reference, it's about 21c here in UK.

What I've learnt is that it is important to get the grease as perfect as you
can manage. I used a razor blade to smooth the grease over the heatsink,
made sure I didn't put my fingers on any surface after I cleaned it and made
sure the pressure from the clamp on the heatsink was directly over the CPU
centre. That lot is so important, it made 20c diference!! so take your time
with it. I'm sure there are other greases that would do a better job, but
it's good enough for me.

Now to see if I can get 1.6G to 1.7 without melting it again!!

Si

  #24  
Old September 6th 03, 02:59 AM
David Maynard
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

w_tom wrote:
A bare heatsink, properly machined, is more than sufficient
to cool a CPU. If thermal compound results in more than
single digit temperature decrease, then heatsink is
defective. It probably was not sold with the all so necessary
"degree C per watt" parameter. Therefore they could not be
sued for failing to meet a specification - for selling a
defective product.

That spec is the first thing one seeks when buying a
heatsink. If the heatsink was so bad that it did not mate
properly to CPU - needed thermal compound - then heatsink was
not even machined and it would not provide a "degree C per
watt" spec. Thermal compound only reduces CPU temperature by
single digits IF heatsink is acceptable.


This must explain why not a single heatsink manufacturer provides their
heatsinks without thermal compound/pad and both Intel and AMD emphatically state
thermal compound must be applied and provide instructions on how to do so.


Thermal compound must be as thin as possible. Thermal
compound works better than pads because most of heatsink must
make contact direct to CPU - no thermal compound between.
Thermal compound only fills microscopic holes between points
of direct contact. Thermal compound and pads do not conduct
as well as a direct to CPU connection. And thermal compound
must be applied so sparingly as to only spread out in the
center half of the CPU - where all heat is transferred from
CPU to heatsink. No thermal compound should be observed in
seam between heatsink and CPU. If it is squeezing out, then
far too much thermal compound was applied - and compound is
keeping heatsink from directly contacting CPU.

Si wrote:

I have an AMD 2000+ and was getting quite high temperatures reporting from
the bios (around 60c), so I took the large copper flower off and cleaned it
up with alcohol and stuck a thermal pad on. (this was advice from an
artical I read about how difficult it is to get a consistant layer across
the processor with paste). After warming up the pc I had crank my fan flat
out to keep it down to 70-75c!!!! That just didn't work at all.
I bought some silicon paste, cleaned it all up again......now it's running
52c with a slow fan speed, ready to overclock again. My system temp is 32c
with a large heatsink and for reference, it's about 21c here in UK.

What I've learnt is that it is important to get the grease as perfect as you
can manage. I used a razor blade to smooth the grease over the heatsink,
made sure I didn't put my fingers on any surface after I cleaned it and made
sure the pressure from the clamp on the heatsink was directly over the CPU
centre. That lot is so important, it made 20c diference!! so take your time
with it. I'm sure there are other greases that would do a better job, but
it's good enough for me.

Now to see if I can get 1.6G to 1.7 without melting it again!!

Si




  #25  
Old September 6th 03, 03:41 AM
David Maynard
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Arthur Hagen wrote:
"AnthonyR" wrote in message
...

What do you mean the chemist didn't have alcohol?



Vin said that the chemists said they didn't have *isopropyl* alcohol
(isopropanol). Alcohol is at least a dozen different things, from methanol
to glycerin.

(Also note that when he said chemist, he almost certainly meant what we call
a drugstore here in the US.)


Do you not have rubbing alcohol in your house? here in the states every
house has a bottle, its used to clean wounds and stuff.



We sure don't have a bottle. Is it mandatory?


What do you use for scraped knee's?



Iodine tinctures, witch hazel, hydrogen peroxide, antibacterial salves and
lotions, or a whole lot of other stuff. Including other alcohols. Using
isopropanol as rubbing alcohol might be a regional thing, because I'm used
to ethanol.


Denatured Alcohol vs. Isopropanol

Denatured Alcohol is ethyl alcohol, or ethanol, containing traces of benzene.
While ethenol, in it's natural form, is a source of combustible fuel, it
contains trace amounts of water making it less efficient for burning than in
it's denatured form. Introducing Benzene during the distillation process drives
out the water contained in ethanol creating a very pure and potent fuel source -
denatured alcohol.
NOTE: Ethanol is the alcohol consumed in alcoholic beverages. However, once
denatured, ethanol becomes toxic and can cause blindness or death if consumed.


Rubbing Alcohol is isopropanol. It has a completely different molecular
structure than ethanol and often contains up to 30% water. Though it is
flammable it is a poor choice for fuel.

Isopropanol is also used for disinfection, and is often the ingredient in the
swab your skin is given before you receive a shot at the doctor's office. Common
thinking is that you should give isopropanol ten minutes to fully kill any germs.

Mixed with ammonia, it makes a great glass cleaner. On its own, it is a great
solvent for many cleaning jobs. Most computer users will be familiar with the
substance as a way to clean mouse balls, clean screens and keyboards, and in a
high enough concentration, clean magnetic drive heads in tape and disk drives.

----

In my experience "rubbing alcohol" has always been isopropyl although I can find
an occasional references to ethanol as an alternate, but it's then called Ethyl
Rubbing Alcohol in the ones I found. I did a quick survey of friends scattered
from New York and Massachusetts to Florida and Texas and all said isopropyl, not
to mention it was in their medicine cabinet for a quick check of the label.

See http://www.med-chem.com/Products/alcohols.htm

70% Ethyl Alcohol (Ethyl Rubbing Alcohol)

Alcohol used as a disinfectant for thermometers and as a skin antiseptic. 70%
ethyl alcohol is meant for external use only


70% Isopropyl Alcohol (Rubbing Alcohol)
Alcohol most commonly used for rubdown and general massage purposes. It is
used as an antiseptic for simple wound disinfection. 70% isopropyl alcohol is
meant for external use only.


Obviously that concept is behind the other poster's question on what folks use
for "scraped knee's." I, as you mentioned, have a number of other disinfectants
as well but I suspect the reason 'rubbing alcohol', meaning isopropyl, is so
often mentioned is it's historic propensity to 'always be there', hence handy,
due to it's other varied uses and low cost.


If using denatured ethanol on computer parts, make sure you don't use the
kind that leaves a fatty residue.

Regards,



  #26  
Old September 6th 03, 03:59 AM
Strontium
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


-
David Maynard stood up at show-n-tell, in , and
said:

Arthur Hagen wrote:
"AnthonyR" wrote in message
...

What do you mean the chemist didn't have alcohol?



Vin said that the chemists said they didn't have *isopropyl* alcohol
(isopropanol). Alcohol is at least a dozen different things, from
methanol
to glycerin.

(Also note that when he said chemist, he almost certainly meant what
we call
a drugstore here in the US.)


Do you not have rubbing alcohol in your house? here in the states
every
house has a bottle, its used to clean wounds and stuff.



We sure don't have a bottle. Is it mandatory?


What do you use for scraped knee's?



Iodine tinctures, witch hazel, hydrogen peroxide, antibacterial
salves and lotions, or a whole lot of other stuff. Including other
alcohols. Using isopropanol as rubbing alcohol might be a regional
thing, because I'm used
to ethanol.


Denatured Alcohol vs. Isopropanol

Denatured Alcohol is ethyl alcohol, or ethanol, containing traces of
benzene. While ethenol, in it's natural form, is a source of
combustible fuel, it contains trace amounts of water making it less
efficient for burning than in it's denatured form. Introducing
Benzene during the distillation process drives out the water
contained in ethanol creating a very pure and potent fuel source -
denatured alcohol.
NOTE: Ethanol is the alcohol consumed in alcoholic beverages.
However, once denatured, ethanol becomes toxic and can cause
blindness or death if consumed.


You are confusing this with Methanol (wood alcohol). Denatured alcohol
(benzene dirtied ethanol) will not cause blindness. Death? Perhaps, if
enough is consumed. More than likely, though, cancer as well as a multitude
of other health problems.. Having worked with Benzenes for many years, I
think I can attest to this.


snip

--
Strontium

"It's no surprise, to me. I am my own worst enemy. `Cause every
now, and then, I kick the livin' **** `outta me." - Lit


  #27  
Old September 6th 03, 04:19 AM
David Maynard
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Strontium wrote:
-
David Maynard stood up at show-n-tell, in , and
said:


Arthur Hagen wrote:

"AnthonyR" wrote in message
...


What do you mean the chemist didn't have alcohol?


Vin said that the chemists said they didn't have *isopropyl* alcohol
(isopropanol). Alcohol is at least a dozen different things, from
methanol
to glycerin.

(Also note that when he said chemist, he almost certainly meant what
we call
a drugstore here in the US.)



Do you not have rubbing alcohol in your house? here in the states
every
house has a bottle, its used to clean wounds and stuff.


We sure don't have a bottle. Is it mandatory?



What do you use for scraped knee's?


Iodine tinctures, witch hazel, hydrogen peroxide, antibacterial
salves and lotions, or a whole lot of other stuff. Including other
alcohols. Using isopropanol as rubbing alcohol might be a regional
thing, because I'm used
to ethanol.


Denatured Alcohol vs. Isopropanol

Denatured Alcohol is ethyl alcohol, or ethanol, containing traces of
benzene. While ethenol, in it's natural form, is a source of
combustible fuel, it contains trace amounts of water making it less
efficient for burning than in it's denatured form. Introducing
Benzene during the distillation process drives out the water
contained in ethanol creating a very pure and potent fuel source -
denatured alcohol.
NOTE: Ethanol is the alcohol consumed in alcoholic beverages.
However, once denatured, ethanol becomes toxic and can cause
blindness or death if consumed.



You are confusing this with Methanol (wood alcohol). Denatured alcohol
(benzene dirtied ethanol) will not cause blindness. Death? Perhaps, if
enough is consumed. More than likely, though, cancer as well as a multitude
of other health problems.. Having worked with Benzenes for many years, I
think I can attest to this.


It's not my confusion; I cut and pasted that from a web site and didn't pay
attention to the 'note'. My comments were after the ------ separator.

Anyone who watches enough old prohibition period movies knows the problem with
"wood alchy"



snip

--
Strontium

"It's no surprise, to me. I am my own worst enemy. `Cause every
now, and then, I kick the livin' **** `outta me." - Lit




  #28  
Old September 6th 03, 04:19 AM
David Maynard
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Strontium wrote:
-
David Maynard stood up at show-n-tell, in , and
said:


Arthur Hagen wrote:

"AnthonyR" wrote in message
...


What do you mean the chemist didn't have alcohol?


Vin said that the chemists said they didn't have *isopropyl* alcohol
(isopropanol). Alcohol is at least a dozen different things, from
methanol
to glycerin.

(Also note that when he said chemist, he almost certainly meant what
we call
a drugstore here in the US.)



Do you not have rubbing alcohol in your house? here in the states
every
house has a bottle, its used to clean wounds and stuff.


We sure don't have a bottle. Is it mandatory?



What do you use for scraped knee's?


Iodine tinctures, witch hazel, hydrogen peroxide, antibacterial
salves and lotions, or a whole lot of other stuff. Including other
alcohols. Using isopropanol as rubbing alcohol might be a regional
thing, because I'm used
to ethanol.


Denatured Alcohol vs. Isopropanol

Denatured Alcohol is ethyl alcohol, or ethanol, containing traces of
benzene. While ethenol, in it's natural form, is a source of
combustible fuel, it contains trace amounts of water making it less
efficient for burning than in it's denatured form. Introducing
Benzene during the distillation process drives out the water
contained in ethanol creating a very pure and potent fuel source -
denatured alcohol.
NOTE: Ethanol is the alcohol consumed in alcoholic beverages.
However, once denatured, ethanol becomes toxic and can cause
blindness or death if consumed.



You are confusing this with Methanol (wood alcohol). Denatured alcohol
(benzene dirtied ethanol) will not cause blindness. Death? Perhaps, if
enough is consumed. More than likely, though, cancer as well as a multitude
of other health problems.. Having worked with Benzenes for many years, I
think I can attest to this.


It's not my confusion; I cut and pasted that from a web site and didn't pay
attention to the 'note'. My comments were after the ------ separator.

Anyone who watches enough old prohibition period movies knows the problem with
"wood alcy"



snip

--
Strontium

"It's no surprise, to me. I am my own worst enemy. `Cause every
now, and then, I kick the livin' **** `outta me." - Lit




  #29  
Old September 6th 03, 04:46 AM
Strontium
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

-
David Maynard stood up at show-n-tell, in , and
said:

Strontium wrote:
-
David Maynard stood up at show-n-tell, in
,
and said:


snip

Iodine tinctures, witch hazel, hydrogen peroxide, antibacterial
salves and lotions, or a whole lot of other stuff. Including other
alcohols. Using isopropanol as rubbing alcohol might be a regional
thing, because I'm used
to ethanol.

Denatured Alcohol vs. Isopropanol

Denatured Alcohol is ethyl alcohol, or ethanol, containing traces of
benzene. While ethenol, in it's natural form, is a source of
combustible fuel, it contains trace amounts of water making it less
efficient for burning than in it's denatured form. Introducing
Benzene during the distillation process drives out the water
contained in ethanol creating a very pure and potent fuel source -
denatured alcohol.
NOTE: Ethanol is the alcohol consumed in alcoholic beverages.
However, once denatured, ethanol becomes toxic and can cause
blindness or death if consumed.



You are confusing this with Methanol (wood alcohol). Denatured
alcohol (benzene dirtied ethanol) will not cause blindness. Death?
Perhaps, if enough is consumed. More than likely, though, cancer as
well as a multitude of other health problems.. Having worked with
Benzenes for many years, I think I can attest to this.


It's not my confusion; I cut and pasted that from a web site and
didn't pay attention to the 'note'. My comments were after the ------
separator.

Anyone who watches enough old prohibition period movies knows the
problem with "wood alcy"


Ahhhhhh! Didn't see your "Pasted from etc, etc..." disclaimer






snip


--
Strontium

"It's no surprise, to me. I am my own worst enemy. `Cause every
now, and then, I kick the livin' **** `outta me." - Lit


  #30  
Old September 6th 03, 05:34 AM
w_tom
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Intel and AMD do not demand that everyone use thermal
compound. They say to ill informed hobbyists to install
thermal compound because experience has demonstrated that
"degree C per watt" is too complex for some assemblers. For
those with some experience, any heatsink without the "degree C
per watt" parameter is suspect - at best.

But then, since thermal compound is so cheap (tens of times
less than what the overhyped Arctic Silver costs), then why
not provide thermal compound so that the bad CPU installation
does not cause permanent failure. Thermal compound is good
compensation for the ill informed computer system assembler.

In one Intel paper for engineers, the negative effects of
thermal compound are discussed. But that paper is beyond
scope of this discussion. A properly machine heatsink without
thermal compound will only cause single digit temperature
decrease on CPU ... IF heatsink is properly machined. If
thermal compound results in better temperature decreases, then
one must ask how improperly a heatsink was applied OR how poor
the heatsink really is.

If you dispute this, then the theoretical numbers can be
posted, obviously, OR examples provided from scientifically
controlled experiments. In the meantime, decades of
experience says that thermal compound results in only single
digit temperature reduction if the heatsink is properly
machined. This is science that was old even thirty years
ago. Why promote the hype of Arctic Silver, et al? They
already sell a product that is grossly profitable. Instead
promote the well proven science.

David Maynard wrote:
w_tom wrote:
A bare heatsink, properly machined, is more than sufficient
to cool a CPU. If thermal compound results in more than
defective. It probably was not sold with the all so necessary
"degree C per watt" parameter. Therefore they could not be
sued for failing to meet a specification - for selling a
defective product.

That spec is the first thing one seeks when buying a
heatsink. If the heatsink was so bad that it did not mate
properly to CPU - needed thermal compound - then heatsink was
not even machined and it would not provide a "degree C per
watt" spec. Thermal compound only reduces CPU temperature by
single digits IF heatsink is acceptable.


This must explain why not a single heatsink manufacturer provides
their heatsinks without thermal compound/pad and both Intel and
AMD emphatically state thermal compound must be applied and
provide instructions on how to do so.

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Thermal Paste Help archagon General 3 March 28th 04 05:55 AM
Thermal paste - General 12 November 15th 03 09:54 AM
Thermal pad or Thermal paste? Vin General 68 September 17th 03 05:38 AM
Thermal pad or Thermal paste? Vin Overclocking 73 September 17th 03 05:38 AM
Thermal paste in retail box Ian Riches Overclocking AMD Processors 5 July 13th 03 12:46 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 HardwareBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.