Need Help Understanding OC results for 'old' Celery not liking Win2K

P2B wrote:



David Maynard wrote:

Spajky wrote:

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 23:48:40 -0500, pgtr wrote:


Can you expand on how to check for bad caps?




check for bad caps ...




if they are bulged or leaking like this:
http://freeweb.siol.net/jerman55/HP/...ds/badCaps.jpg

and check also AGP/PCI divider in bios (if settable, check if also any
jumpers on the MoBo for that)

try also disabling Acpi in bios & set let bios manage your IRQ table
instead of OS & than at default speed CPU reinstall the OS ...



Spajky has a good point here. Contrary to what one would intuitively
think, Microsoft says the BIOS should be set for NOT PnP O.S.


Indeed. I suspect most following this thread have known not to set PnP
OS = Yes for so long that asking the OP if he did it never occurred to
us :-)


hehe. Yeah, which is why I, too, never thought to ask. But, hey, it can
happen to even the best, especially if one gets sidetracked onto other issues.

pgtr wrote in message . ..
On 8 Jul 2004 14:36:32 -0700, (N. Thornton) wrote:
Let me ask you one key question: does it behave itself properly at
566, rebooting happily, but wont reboot at 850?

No

After the CMOS clear yesterday I CAN reboot repeatedly and run at 850.

excellant!

If the answers yes, data errors is the only at all likely explanation.
If the answers no, then I either misread or mis-somethinged.


So why will it run happily at 850 but not boot at 850 after the first
go?
guess
subsequent boots involve the use of an instruction that the CPU/mobo
cant do at the higher speed. This instruction isnt used in runtime.
/guess

Subsequent boots are fine. Now we are reduced to the power-up scenario
negating the ability to run in windows at 850mhz.

thats as clear as mud to me. No point me saying a squeak when I dont
know whats going on.

Regards, NT


The one question there is all important.

I assume you understand exactly how things go wrong when a machine is
o/ced past what it can manage stably and reilably?

Givne the system WILL manage itself quite "stably and reilably" even
after reboots (but not power offs) what things go wrong w/ this oc?

Redid W2K w/ std PC instead of ACPI (see below). No joy.

Also disabled IRQ Steering in the APM tab for kicks. No joy either.

I also tried it w/ just an AGP card and also just an (older) PCI video
card - neither combo did anything.

Several days back I did pull the one old ISA card I still have (an old
creative sound card). This card always worked fine w/ the 366 at
550(100). But I did notice one difference trying to run at 850 that
might be worth mentioning:

WITH the card in the one ISA slot on the mobo the hang occurs EARLIER
- that is in the same black F8 screen w/ teh text based starting
windows progress bar on the bottom.

WITHOUT the old ISA card and the various changes over the last couple
days it generally gets pretty much right to the end of the progress
bar and just barely starts the 'white' graphical W2k splash screen but
only barely starts the new grpahical starting windows progress bar
here.

In any event it never gets far enough to write the ntbtlog.txt file.

In safe mode it prints a number of drivers on the screen and the last
line it prints is the AGP440.SYS line. In a clean boot the next one is
normally AUDSTUB.SYS.

Anway I can still:

* dabble some w/ the BIOS one release prior to my current one

* twiddle w/ the jumper to get 1.9V as suggested earlier in the thread
- maybe this weekend

* strip the other cards and try a newer/better PCI graphics than the
one currently in there.

* solder up the 2 pins etc per web articles on the back of the mobo or
install a cheap FCPGA adapter to see if that mod (both are
functionally equivalent) has any affect - plus it opens up the door to
much faster chips that cB0 stepping CuMines.

I know I tried that prior BIOS at least once - no joy. If it actually
worked w/ another PCI card I'd face the problem of having to replace
PCI components - it's just not worth it IMHO.

But I am intrigued about the jumper to get 1.9V - that would allow me
to stop w/ the foolie flash and who knows how it might respond...
Maybe the FCPGA CuMine mod too...

But after that I think that's pretty much about as far as I'm willing
to ride this one...

Thanks to everyone especially David M! I'll follow up after that last
mod or two.

BTW what is better:
550(100) or 637(75)

(add'l comments below)

On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 21:08:48 -0500, David Maynard
wrote:
SNIP
The power situation causing a non-bootable system is a point well
taken. I vaguely recall years ago when I upgraded that I immediately
ran into a situation that required the 4 recovery diskettes due to
some sort of power config I entered.

According to this article:
http://is-it-true.org/nt/nt2000/atips/atips42.shtml
My system falls into a neutral category (hybrid?).

Well, not quite. the 'neutral category' they talk about is the motherboard
being not ACPI complaint NOR APM complaint so neither is active. You don't
have the situation of neither, you have the supposedly improbable
combination of BOTH installed.

It was not on the
APM disable list so the drivers were installed/disabled apparently.
It's a simple option under the Control Panel power options to enable
legacy APM support and voila - my shotdown correctly powers off!

Except the option shouldn't BE there as it isn't supposed to even 'look'
for APM if it's detected and installed ACPI, as in "If ACPI compatibility
is not present, W2K installation will attempt to install APM drivers." The
operative word is "If."

And if it doesn't pass ACPI it isn't supposed to INSTALL an ACPI HAL.

Well to be honest I can't say I've had any ACPI problems before except
for it not powering down (which I fixed w/o removing ACPI by enabling
APM Legacy support) and only recenlty the reset button and then only
at 850.

Anyway it's gone now - I have Standard PC (APM) at last after doing
the W2K install. That was a hassle because I lost SP4 and came up w/ a
no dial-up accounts and couldn't create one because the wizard was
'goofy'. WHile I couldn't set up a new dial up account to access the
web I COULD finally get it to connect via LAN so used another PC/Modem
and went the the ICS dance and go on so I could get SP4 installed
again. After SP4 I magically got all my old accounts back and
everything starting coming together as I reapplied hot fixes etc...

I'm glad I did that exercise and will keep it in mind for the future
but it didn't help w/ the 850 thing.

Oh and reset works most times (it does seem to hang on rare occasion
but 9 out of 10 it works after an 850 attempt now).


However...
It didn't seem happy w/ W98 at 850 either (more on that later). And
following the steps in the above article it seems to power down just
fine and it's always worked just fine at various non-850 speeds all
these years as is otherwise.

Why it behaves differently at 100MHz FSB, vs lower speeds, is something I
don't have a good answer for, unless it's some quirk in their 'not quite
right' ACPI BIOS, as in some obscure internal timing parameter they don't
alter properly for the higher bus speed.

It's almost as if it's ACPI when under 100 MHz FSB but there and above,
"surprise, no workie, no ACPI now."

What's different about a mendocino at 100fsb (what I had in there
before a 366 at 550) vs an early coppermine at 100fsb (the current 566
at 850).




Based on the 98 scenario I'm not hopeful switch from ACPI to Standard
PC is going to make the difference. However you make a compelling
argument and I've been thinking about doing the W2K re-install anyway
so I'm going to pencil that into the todo list in the next day or so
maybe even today.

Well, it's a compelling 'possibility' but not so air tight that I'd bet the
house on it

Well I still have the house but no 850. Just as well to dump ACPI and
go w/ APM I guess anyway.


SNIP
I like this trick if it allows me to avoid the foolie flash as it's
called.

Heck, I just made up the name "foolie flash" as it seemed to capture the
gist of it

I like the mmoniker - you get the honors - foolie flash definately
describes the point of the /cc to coax it up to a higher voltage
range.

Thanks

On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 02:01:57 +0200, Spajky wrote:

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 23:48:40 -0500, pgtr wrote:

Can you expand on how to check for bad caps?

check for bad caps ...

if they are bulged or leaking like this:
http://freeweb.siol.net/jerman55/HP/...ds/badCaps.jpg

I know it's not the ultimate check but absolutely no bulging or
leaking can be observed.

off topic - last time I saw really bad caps was an old '49 AA5 tube
radio I restored - it had wax coated paper caps and the electrolytics
were loooong gone - some nice new orangedrops and 1 new tube got it
going again - those are a bit bigger/easier to work with though!

and check also AGP/PCI divider in bios (if settable, check if also any
jumpers on the MoBo for that)

Yep they are set in BIOS. In fact the BIOS inludes the default setting
in teh FSB setting E.g. when I set it to 100 it says: "100 (1/3)"
making that one almost idiot proof even for me.

The AGP is separate and at 2/3 if I recall. (the only other option is
1/1)

try also disabling Acpi in bios & set let bios manage your IRQ table
instead of OS & than at default speed CPU reinstall the OS ...

ACPI is disabled in BIOS - and now in W2K as well though changing that
in W2K to APM was just a 'tad' more involved! ;o)

Thanks!

On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 21:15:00 -0500, David Maynard
wrote:

Spajky has a good point here. Contrary to what one would intuitively think,
Microsoft says the BIOS should be set for NOT PnP O.S.

Yep - I've double checked and it's set to disabled or no or whatever
for PnP OS. It has been set to yes or enabled in teh past so maybe
it's possible I had a permutation that might have worked but for that.

sanity checks for the obvious are always welcome here!

thanks

pgtr wrote:
On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 02:01:57 +0200, Spajky wrote:


On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 23:48:40 -0500, pgtr wrote:


Can you expand on how to check for bad caps?

check for bad caps ...

if they are bulged or leaking like this:
http://freeweb.siol.net/jerman55/HP/...ds/badCaps.jpg


I know it's not the ultimate check but absolutely no bulging or
leaking can be observed.

off topic - last time I saw really bad caps was an old '49 AA5 tube
radio I restored - it had wax coated paper caps and the electrolytics
were loooong gone - some nice new orangedrops and 1 new tube got it
going again - those are a bit bigger/easier to work with though!

I know what you mean about old caps and leaking electrolyte but the 'bulge'
on the modern caps, at least in this application, is all it takes. If they
are not FLAT on top, they're bad.

If you notice, that 'flat' top is radially serrated. It's a pressure relief
and if it's bulged up then the electrolyte boiled but, on the ones I saw,
there is no obvious electrolyte 'leakage' visible while still installed.

Anyway, I believe your visual was correct and that they're ok but it's
worth noting for future reference.



and check also AGP/PCI divider in bios (if settable, check if also any
jumpers on the MoBo for that)


Yep they are set in BIOS. In fact the BIOS inludes the default setting
in teh FSB setting E.g. when I set it to 100 it says: "100 (1/3)"
making that one almost idiot proof even for me.

The AGP is separate and at 2/3 if I recall. (the only other option is
1/1)


try also disabling Acpi in bios & set let bios manage your IRQ table
instead of OS & than at default speed CPU reinstall the OS ...


ACPI is disabled in BIOS - and now in W2K as well though changing that
in W2K to APM was just a 'tad' more involved! ;o)

Thanks!