Need Help Understanding OC results for 'old' Celery not liking Win2K

pgtr wrote:

Result:

Well it was a step forward.... kinda...

After clearing the CMOS via the mobo jumper and reflashing to get my
voltage options up I was again in W2K at 850 for the better part of
this afternoon. I was reluctant to restart windows because I figured
it would fail and I'd be back in at 637mhz.

Well wouldn't ya know it, after the CMOS clear, and all that I DID get
into W2K again at 850. And again and again via 'restart'. Even ran a
torture test for an hour or two while at dinner.

But wait! there's a catch. I then powered down the PC and after a few
minutes turned it on again. Uh oh... back to square one. It would not
get into W2K after a power down after all of that.

-------

On the reset switch power front. I did notice the ACPI tab on device
driver under the 'computer' tab in the device manager - missed that in
my previous post. After a little digging around on the web I realized
my mobo (the old ZM6 ABit from late 90s) is not fully ACPI compatible
w/ W2K - the telltale sign is it has never fully powered down from W2K

That's a pretty dern useful clue. It's ALWAYS had a power management issue.

like it used to under W98SE. THere is an APM tab in the power options
device manager entry that indicates W2K did detect APM when it was
installed as well as (limited?) ACPI. I switched the APM driver on and
enabled in W2K as well as the BIOS and it now powers down the system
from W2K rather than physically pretting the power button. No biggee -

Not hardly. You've got a problem if it's running an ACPI HAL and APM both
as that's a one or the other proposition, not together.

Since you say ACPI is problematic, I'd suggest you reinstall, selecting
Standard PC (F8 during setup), and use APM. You may find, I hope, that the
problems go away once ACPI is out of the picture. It'll also clear up any
potential hardware config issue. Note, from the article:

"Note that you should not attempt to change from an ACPI HAL to a standard
HAL or from a standard HAL to a ACPI HAL under any circumstances. Doing so
will result in your computer not starting properly or at all. This occurs
because the Plug and Play device tree that would be currently loaded is for
ACPI, and it does not get reconstructed or revert to a standard HAL Plug
and Play device tree."

Now, they're talking about not using their 'manual' procedure to change
ACPI/Standard HAL; a reinstall is fine, and how one does it. But the reason
I point it out is you seem to have some kind of 'hybrid' installation with
APM/ACPI mixed together and lord knows what kind of mixed mode ACPI/PnP
device tree it's got.


just a minor discovery and improvement.

But the reset button continues to do little more than blank the screen
and cause the drives to click a few times if it follows a previously
unsuccessful attempt to load W2K at 850. The reset button seems to be
working under other conditions like slower speeds.

Anyway I 'think' I can amend the previous condition of one time after
flash to many restarts after flash until a power-off... Well it's
progress of sorts...

I think that is a HELL of a lot of progress and it tends to support my
theory of power management, specifically ACPI, being the problem.


--------

I'm going to start off my 98SE setup at last.

I'm thinking on that Vid to Vss jumper mentioned earlier.

Good idea regardless of whether removing ACPI 'fixes' it because then you
don't have to worry about some anomoly resetting your Vcore back to 1.5.


May try safe mode and bootlogging again though neither worked in the
past.

thanks!

On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 01:55:22 -0500, David Maynard
wrote:

On the reset switch power front. I did notice the ACPI tab on device
driver under the 'computer' tab in the device manager - missed that in
my previous post. After a little digging around on the web I realized
my mobo (the old ZM6 ABit from late 90s) is not fully ACPI compatible
w/ W2K - the telltale sign is it has never fully powered down from W2K

That's a pretty dern useful clue. It's ALWAYS had a power management issue.

Yes. It was just one of those things that I put off and eventually
forgot about when I upgraded to W2K. But the reset button has always
worked...


like it used to under W98SE. THere is an APM tab in the power options
device manager entry that indicates W2K did detect APM when it was
installed as well as (limited?) ACPI. I switched the APM driver on and
enabled in W2K as well as the BIOS and it now powers down the system
from W2K rather than physically pretting the power button. No biggee -

Not hardly. You've got a problem if it's running an ACPI HAL and APM both
as that's a one or the other proposition, not together.

Since you say ACPI is problematic, I'd suggest you reinstall, selecting
Standard PC (F8 during setup), and use APM. You may find, I hope, that the
problems go away once ACPI is out of the picture. It'll also clear up any
potential hardware config issue. Note, from the article:

"Note that you should not attempt to change from an ACPI HAL to a standard
HAL or from a standard HAL to a ACPI HAL under any circumstances. Doing so
will result in your computer not starting properly or at all. This occurs
because the Plug and Play device tree that would be currently loaded is for
ACPI, and it does not get reconstructed or revert to a standard HAL Plug
and Play device tree."

Now, they're talking about not using their 'manual' procedure to change
ACPI/Standard HAL; a reinstall is fine, and how one does it. But the reason
I point it out is you seem to have some kind of 'hybrid' installation with
APM/ACPI mixed together and lord knows what kind of mixed mode ACPI/PnP
device tree it's got.

The power situation causing a non-bootable system is a point well
taken. I vaguely recall years ago when I upgraded that I immediately
ran into a situation that required the 4 recovery diskettes due to
some sort of power config I entered.

According to this article:
http://is-it-true.org/nt/nt2000/atips/atips42.shtml
My system falls into a neutral category (hybrid?). It was not on the
APM disable list so the drivers were installed/disabled apparently.
It's a simple option under the Control Panel power options to enable
legacy APM support and voila - my shotdown correctly powers off!

However...
It didn't seem happy w/ W98 at 850 either (more on that later). And
following the steps in the above article it seems to power down just
fine and it's always worked just fine at various non-850 speeds all
these years as is otherwise.

Based on the 98 scenario I'm not hopeful switch from ACPI to Standard
PC is going to make the difference. However you make a compelling
argument and I've been thinking about doing the W2K re-install anyway
so I'm going to pencil that into the todo list in the next day or so
maybe even today.

just a minor discovery and improvement.

But the reset button continues to do little more than blank the screen
and cause the drives to click a few times if it follows a previously
unsuccessful attempt to load W2K at 850. The reset button seems to be
working under other conditions like slower speeds.

Anyway I 'think' I can amend the previous condition of one time after
flash to many restarts after flash until a power-off... Well it's
progress of sorts...

I think that is a HELL of a lot of progress and it tends to support my
theory of power management, specifically ACPI, being the problem.

You've convinced me it's worth a shot to do the reinstall.

thanks again...


--------

I'm going to start off my 98SE setup at last.

I'm thinking on that Vid to Vss jumper mentioned earlier.

Good idea regardless of whether removing ACPI 'fixes' it because then you
don't have to worry about some anomoly resetting your Vcore back to 1.5.

My hobby of tinkering on old cars for improved performance taught me
to do one thing at a time! ;o)

I like this trick if it allows me to avoid the foolie flash as it's
called.


May try safe mode and bootlogging again though neither worked in the
past.

thanks!

On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 00:22:34 -0400, P2B wrote:
SNIP

I am looking for:

A) an explanation as to what is special about running W2K immediately
after a flash that allows this

That's easy - immediately after you flash, the BIOS is in a state which
allows W2K to boot at 850 on your specific hardware. This state is lost
after you boot W2K, and you have yet to happen on a way to restore it -
short of reflashing.

Yes but tell me more about the details of that 'state' ... ;o)

Discovering exactly *how* the BIOS state changes and *why* that prevents
rebooting is a much more difficult problem, one that is very probably
insoluble without sophisticated diagnostic equipment.

Indeed.


B) a solution to booting it at 850mhz into W2K w/o having to reflash
it each time

Finding such a solution, if it exists, is likely a matter of trial and
error. I may have missed it, but on reviewing the thread I don't see
much evidence of attempts to find a less drastic way to restore the BIOS
to it's post-flash state.

Clearing the CMOS via the mobo jumper DID allow restarts into W2K at
850. HOwever if the system is powered off and back on - it's back to
square on. That indicates 'some' progress...

Have you tried simply entering and exiting the
BIOS without saving?

Yes.

Entering the BIOS, changing a trivial parameter,
exiting with or without saving?

Yes.

Resetting BIOS to defaults?

Yes.

etc. etc. If
there's more than one BIOS revision available which supports your
configuration, try these tricks with all suitable versions.

THere is one prior BIOS avail that also supports the early Coppermine
cB0 stepping - I believe I tried it once. No joy. But I can't say that
I've duplicated every step of the last week or so on that slightly
older BIOS.

Experiments
of this nature have yielded positive results for me on several

Well experimentation over the last week to 10 days allowed me to
'discover' I could get it up at 850 under W2K immediately after a
flash and based on suggestions here that I could get it up at 850
repeatedly after a CMOS clear as long as I didnt' power it off.

occasions, most notably the ability to run 1GB RAM at 140Mhz FSB on a
P2B-DS. This is impossible unless you enter/exit the BIOS on every boot
- for reasons unknown and unlikely to be explained, but hey, it works :-)

It occurs to me the root of this problem might relate to CPU microcode,
given that W2K will apply a CPU microcode update early in the boot
process if the BIOS has not already done so, whereas DOS and W98 do not
have this functionality. It would be be interesting to know if your BIOS
contains the microcode update for the problematic CPU, and what effect
removing it (if present) or adding it (if not) has on your symptoms.

Finding out if W2K will install at 850, and if so, whether the fresh
install will reboot at 850 might also prove to be a worthwhile exercise
- or not.

I did a quickee 98 install last night and it was disappointing at 850.
I didn't spend a whole lot of time debugging it but superficially it
suggested that the 850 permutation was a probably cause for 98 not
being happy as well. Otherwise I'd find that mention of microcode VERY
interesting.

Since your issue does not seem to have been encountered and solved
previously, I think you're down to trial and error. The trial
suggestions above are based on my experience, and with any luck might
yield positive results - or at least more information.

HTH

Indeed it does - much appreciated! I'm looking at a W2K reinstall
anyway and I can repeat more config scenarios w/ the previos BIOS
flash. But the W98 situation concerns me and suggests it may be more
of a H/W issue regardless of the OS... I couldn't generate a
bootlog.txt in 98 either for some reason...

pgtr wrote in message . ..
On 7 Jul 2004 17:51:40 -0700, (N. Thornton) wrote:

So the picture leaves us with data errors, not configuration problems.

It does? I've logged at least 72 hours now under W2K on this
particular 566 at 850mhz and it has not locked up or acted in an
instable fashion once. Obviously I have to perform the flash trick to
get it up at that particular speed but once up it's fine. There's no
reason to believe the system couldn't run indefinately and in a stable
fashion.

Conservative or aggressive - I've logged at least 72 hours now under
W2K on this particular 566 at 850mhz and it has not locked up or acted
in an instable fashion once. Obviously I have to perform the flash
trick to get it up but once up it's fine. In fact I'm posting this
message while running at 850.

That's not exactly correct - I can reflash the BIOS each time at boot
up and it can CONSISTENTLY run at 850 indefinately and be very stable.

Again it DOES run consistently at 850mhz for hours or even days even
under torture test conditions if I myself am consistent in reflashing
it prior to booting. I often leave my system up for weeks, sometimes a
month or better. Given the long stints the system is left up for - I
could almost justify the pre-boot flash trick as standard procedure.


Let me ask you one key question: does it behave itself properly at
566, rebooting happily, but wont reboot at 850?

If the answers yes, data errors is the only at all likely explanation.
If the answers no, then I either misread or mis-somethinged.


So why will it run happily at 850 but not boot at 850 after the first
go?
guess
subsequent boots involve the use of an instruction that the CPU/mobo
cant do at the higher speed. This instruction isnt used in runtime.
/guess

The one question there is all important.

I assume you understand exactly how things go wrong when a machine is
o/ced past what it can manage stably and reilably?


Regards, NT

On 8 Jul 2004 14:36:32 -0700, (N. Thornton) wrote:
Let me ask you one key question: does it behave itself properly at
566, rebooting happily, but wont reboot at 850?

No

After the CMOS clear yesterday I CAN reboot repeatedly and run at 850.


If the answers yes, data errors is the only at all likely explanation.
If the answers no, then I either misread or mis-somethinged.


So why will it run happily at 850 but not boot at 850 after the first
go?
guess
subsequent boots involve the use of an instruction that the CPU/mobo
cant do at the higher speed. This instruction isnt used in runtime.
/guess

Subsequent boots are fine. Now we are reduced to the power-up scenario
negating the ability to run in windows at 850mhz.


The one question there is all important.

I assume you understand exactly how things go wrong when a machine is
o/ced past what it can manage stably and reilably?

Givne the system WILL manage itself quite "stably and reilably" even
after reboots (but not power offs) what things go wrong w/ this oc?



Regards, NT

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 23:48:40 -0500, pgtr wrote:

Can you expand on how to check for bad caps?

check for bad caps ...

if they are bulged or leaking like this:
http://freeweb.siol.net/jerman55/HP/...ds/badCaps.jpg

and check also AGP/PCI divider in bios (if settable, check if also any
jumpers on the MoBo for that)

try also disabling Acpi in bios & set let bios manage your IRQ table
instead of OS & than at default speed CPU reinstall the OS ...
--
Regards, SPAJKY ®
& visit my site @ http://www.spajky.vze.com
"Tualatin OC-ed / BX-Slot1 / inaudible setup!"
E-mail AntiSpam: remove ##

pgtr wrote:
On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 01:55:22 -0500, David Maynard
wrote:


On the reset switch power front. I did notice the ACPI tab on device
driver under the 'computer' tab in the device manager - missed that in
my previous post. After a little digging around on the web I realized
my mobo (the old ZM6 ABit from late 90s) is not fully ACPI compatible
w/ W2K - the telltale sign is it has never fully powered down from W2K

That's a pretty dern useful clue. It's ALWAYS had a power management issue.


Yes. It was just one of those things that I put off and eventually
forgot about when I upgraded to W2K. But the reset button has always
worked...



like it used to under W98SE. THere is an APM tab in the power options
device manager entry that indicates W2K did detect APM when it was
installed as well as (limited?) ACPI. I switched the APM driver on and
enabled in W2K as well as the BIOS and it now powers down the system
from W2K rather than physically pretting the power button. No biggee -

Not hardly. You've got a problem if it's running an ACPI HAL and APM both
as that's a one or the other proposition, not together.

Since you say ACPI is problematic, I'd suggest you reinstall, selecting
Standard PC (F8 during setup), and use APM. You may find, I hope, that the
problems go away once ACPI is out of the picture. It'll also clear up any
potential hardware config issue. Note, from the article:

"Note that you should not attempt to change from an ACPI HAL to a standard
HAL or from a standard HAL to a ACPI HAL under any circumstances. Doing so
will result in your computer not starting properly or at all. This occurs
because the Plug and Play device tree that would be currently loaded is for
ACPI, and it does not get reconstructed or revert to a standard HAL Plug
and Play device tree."

Now, they're talking about not using their 'manual' procedure to change
ACPI/Standard HAL; a reinstall is fine, and how one does it. But the reason
I point it out is you seem to have some kind of 'hybrid' installation with
APM/ACPI mixed together and lord knows what kind of mixed mode ACPI/PnP
device tree it's got.


The power situation causing a non-bootable system is a point well
taken. I vaguely recall years ago when I upgraded that I immediately
ran into a situation that required the 4 recovery diskettes due to
some sort of power config I entered.

According to this article:
http://is-it-true.org/nt/nt2000/atips/atips42.shtml
My system falls into a neutral category (hybrid?).

Well, not quite. the 'neutral category' they talk about is the motherboard
being not ACPI complaint NOR APM complaint so neither is active. You don't
have the situation of neither, you have the supposedly improbable
combination of BOTH installed.

It was not on the
APM disable list so the drivers were installed/disabled apparently.
It's a simple option under the Control Panel power options to enable
legacy APM support and voila - my shotdown correctly powers off!

Except the option shouldn't BE there as it isn't supposed to even 'look'
for APM if it's detected and installed ACPI, as in "If ACPI compatibility
is not present, W2K installation will attempt to install APM drivers." The
operative word is "If."

And if it doesn't pass ACPI it isn't supposed to INSTALL an ACPI HAL.


However...
It didn't seem happy w/ W98 at 850 either (more on that later). And
following the steps in the above article it seems to power down just
fine and it's always worked just fine at various non-850 speeds all
these years as is otherwise.

Why it behaves differently at 100MHz FSB, vs lower speeds, is something I
don't have a good answer for, unless it's some quirk in their 'not quite
right' ACPI BIOS, as in some obscure internal timing parameter they don't
alter properly for the higher bus speed.

It's almost as if it's ACPI when under 100 MHz FSB but there and above,
"surprise, no workie, no ACPI now."


Based on the 98 scenario I'm not hopeful switch from ACPI to Standard
PC is going to make the difference. However you make a compelling
argument and I've been thinking about doing the W2K re-install anyway
so I'm going to pencil that into the todo list in the next day or so
maybe even today.

Well, it's a compelling 'possibility' but not so air tight that I'd bet the
house on it


just a minor discovery and improvement.

But the reset button continues to do little more than blank the screen
and cause the drives to click a few times if it follows a previously
unsuccessful attempt to load W2K at 850. The reset button seems to be
working under other conditions like slower speeds.

Anyway I 'think' I can amend the previous condition of one time after
flash to many restarts after flash until a power-off... Well it's
progress of sorts...

I think that is a HELL of a lot of progress and it tends to support my
theory of power management, specifically ACPI, being the problem.


You've convinced me it's worth a shot to do the reinstall.

thanks again...


--------

I'm going to start off my 98SE setup at last.

I'm thinking on that Vid to Vss jumper mentioned earlier.

Good idea regardless of whether removing ACPI 'fixes' it because then you
don't have to worry about some anomoly resetting your Vcore back to 1.5.


My hobby of tinkering on old cars for improved performance taught me
to do one thing at a time! ;o)

Excellent point, and quite right. Although, it can be 'singly tested' at
the standard 66MHz FSB where everything is 'apparently normal'.


I like this trick if it allows me to avoid the foolie flash as it's
called.

Heck, I just made up the name "foolie flash" as it seemed to capture the
gist of it

May try safe mode and bootlogging again though neither worked in the
past.

thanks!

Spajky wrote:

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 23:48:40 -0500, pgtr wrote:


Can you expand on how to check for bad caps?


check for bad caps ...


if they are bulged or leaking like this:
http://freeweb.siol.net/jerman55/HP/...ds/badCaps.jpg

and check also AGP/PCI divider in bios (if settable, check if also any
jumpers on the MoBo for that)

try also disabling Acpi in bios & set let bios manage your IRQ table
instead of OS & than at default speed CPU reinstall the OS ...

Spajky has a good point here. Contrary to what one would intuitively think,
Microsoft says the BIOS should be set for NOT PnP O.S.

N. Thornton wrote:

pgtr wrote in message . ..

On 7 Jul 2004 17:51:40 -0700, (N. Thornton) wrote:


So the picture leaves us with data errors, not configuration problems.

It does? I've logged at least 72 hours now under W2K on this
particular 566 at 850mhz and it has not locked up or acted in an
instable fashion once. Obviously I have to perform the flash trick to
get it up at that particular speed but once up it's fine. There's no
reason to believe the system couldn't run indefinately and in a stable
fashion.


Conservative or aggressive - I've logged at least 72 hours now under
W2K on this particular 566 at 850mhz and it has not locked up or acted
in an instable fashion once. Obviously I have to perform the flash
trick to get it up but once up it's fine. In fact I'm posting this
message while running at 850.


That's not exactly correct - I can reflash the BIOS each time at boot
up and it can CONSISTENTLY run at 850 indefinately and be very stable.


Again it DOES run consistently at 850mhz for hours or even days even
under torture test conditions if I myself am consistent in reflashing
it prior to booting. I often leave my system up for weeks, sometimes a
month or better. Given the long stints the system is left up for - I
could almost justify the pre-boot flash trick as standard procedure.



Let me ask you one key question: does it behave itself properly at
566, rebooting happily, but wont reboot at 850?

If the answers yes, data errors is the only at all likely explanation.
If the answers no, then I either misread or mis-somethinged.

One common scenario: System works fine at 66 MHz FSB but fails with a
100MHz FSB overclock. Reason: User forgot to set PCI to 1/3 and AGP to 1/2.

Just saying "data errors" is like saying "car broke." It doesn't aid in
finding out what's broken.


So why will it run happily at 850 but not boot at 850 after the first
go?

We've actually gotten past the 'reboot' issue and now it's down to a cold
start issue.

guess
subsequent boots involve the use of an instruction that the CPU/mobo
cant do at the higher speed. This instruction isnt used in runtime.
/guess

Not very likely.

The one question there is all important.

I assume you understand exactly how things go wrong when a machine is
o/ced past what it can manage stably and reilably?

Yes, and it passes all those things that are the usual suspects.

Regards, NT

David Maynard wrote:

Spajky wrote:

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 23:48:40 -0500, pgtr wrote:


Can you expand on how to check for bad caps?



check for bad caps ...



if they are bulged or leaking like this:
http://freeweb.siol.net/jerman55/HP/...ds/badCaps.jpg

and check also AGP/PCI divider in bios (if settable, check if also any
jumpers on the MoBo for that)

try also disabling Acpi in bios & set let bios manage your IRQ table
instead of OS & than at default speed CPU reinstall the OS ...


Spajky has a good point here. Contrary to what one would intuitively
think, Microsoft says the BIOS should be set for NOT PnP O.S.


Indeed. I suspect most following this thread have known not to set PnP
OS = Yes for so long that asking the OP if he did it never occurred to
us :-)