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#11
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Yet another heat issue
"Quinch" wrote in message ... SC Tom wrote: "Quinch" wrote in message ... Quinch wrote: snipped for brevity Something that just occurred to me - the heatsink clips in to place rather easily, without much pressure needed. Could that be the problem? There are little "rungs" on each side of the clip, should I try to move each side by a step so as to put more pressure with the clipped sink, or would that risk punching the CPU through the motherboard? Most of the ones I've had that used the center spring clip were pretty hard to clip. The one I have now clips on one side, and has a lever on the other side that pulls it down tight onto the CPU. (Click on the picture here http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835200042 and you'll see what I'm talking about.) As long as the CPU is seated properly and you don't rock the heatsink, you should have no problem by making it one notch tighter. Yep, the old one used the same mechanism, which reminded me of the possible pressure problem. Pretty sure I'll need to dismount the heatsink to do it, though. Either way, wish me luck. If you take the fan off each unit, you should be able to swap the spring and lever mechanisms, if the distance from the bottom of the heatsink to the bottom of the slot, and the width of the slots are close. That would allow you to use the lever mechanism with the new heatsink and fan. -- SC Tom |
#12
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Yet another heat issue
"SC Tom" wrote in message ... "Quinch" wrote in message ... Quinch wrote: snipped for brevity Something that just occurred to me - the heatsink clips in to place rather easily, without much pressure needed. Could that be the problem? There are little "rungs" on each side of the clip, should I try to move each side by a step so as to put more pressure with the clipped sink, or would that risk punching the CPU through the motherboard? Most of the ones I've had that used the center spring clip were pretty hard to clip. The one I have now clips on one side, and has a lever on the other side that pulls it down tight onto the CPU. (Click on the picture here http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835200042 and you'll see what I'm talking about.) As long as the CPU is seated properly and you don't rock the heatsink, you should have no problem by making it one notch tighter. I take that back- I don't believe the extra holes in the heatsink clip will work by going to the next hole- looking at the pictures from their site, I don't think that's what they're for, or if you'd have room between the socket clip and the MB to accommodate the added length of clip hanging down. -- SC Tom |
#13
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Yet another heat issue
GMAN wrote:
In , wrote: Alright, so... I've got an overheating CPU problem {I bet you haven't seen one of those for a while!}. So, a quick rundown... replaced my old and grindy heatsink with a new one... except when the CPU runs at full capacity, the temperature gradually creeps up, and keeps creeping up indefinitely {or until the CPU starts screaming in pre-shutdown agony}. Stuff that might bear mentioning; The fan only has three connector pins instead of four. However, since it came with the heatsink itself, I assumed it shouldn't be a problem. The specs on the box say that it should go up to ~3K RPM, but SpeedFan never reported it going more than 2K-ish. Once the CPU eases off, the temperature quickly drops back into fifties and gradually down into upper thirties. There's a consistent layer of thermal paste across the chip. There's a bit of horizontal wiggle room with the heatsink in place, but it seems to fit snugly against the chip anyway. Pictures and crap: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...h/PB120246.jpg and http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...h/PB120248.jpg Any ideas? This constant game of "I'm not touching youuuuu!" is starting to get on my nerves. That looks like a little too much compound on the cpu. The idea is not to make a barrier between the cpu and heatsink but to basically fill in the microscopic gaps between the cpu and heatsink. Take at least half of of that compound and reattach. The cpu and heatcink IMHO are not even touching properly. I tried reapplying it thinner, this time with the credit card method - no luck. Admittedly I applied it on the heatsink base rather than the CPU {a little wary of taking the chip out, paranoia and all} but I'm assuming it should make little difference? |
#14
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Yet another heat issue
"Quinch" wrote in message ... GMAN wrote: In , wrote: Alright, so... I've got an overheating CPU problem {I bet you haven't seen one of those for a while!}. So, a quick rundown... replaced my old and grindy heatsink with a new one... except when the CPU runs at full capacity, the temperature gradually creeps up, and keeps creeping up indefinitely {or until the CPU starts screaming in pre-shutdown agony}. Stuff that might bear mentioning; The fan only has three connector pins instead of four. However, since it came with the heatsink itself, I assumed it shouldn't be a problem. The specs on the box say that it should go up to ~3K RPM, but SpeedFan never reported it going more than 2K-ish. Once the CPU eases off, the temperature quickly drops back into fifties and gradually down into upper thirties. There's a consistent layer of thermal paste across the chip. There's a bit of horizontal wiggle room with the heatsink in place, but it seems to fit snugly against the chip anyway. Pictures and crap: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...h/PB120246.jpg and http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...h/PB120248.jpg Any ideas? This constant game of "I'm not touching youuuuu!" is starting to get on my nerves. That looks like a little too much compound on the cpu. The idea is not to make a barrier between the cpu and heatsink but to basically fill in the microscopic gaps between the cpu and heatsink. Take at least half of of that compound and reattach. The cpu and heatcink IMHO are not even touching properly. I tried reapplying it thinner, this time with the credit card method - no luck. Admittedly I applied it on the heatsink base rather than the CPU {a little wary of taking the chip out, paranoia and all} but I'm assuming it should make little difference? No. it shouldn't make any difference, as long as the area pasted is covering the whole CPU. Since nothing in your system has changed except the heatsink, I'd look at getting a different one. If the old one (albeit noisy) was working fine under loads, then something just ain't quite right with this one. Hopefully the number of times your CPU has overheated hasn't harmed it. -- SC Tom |
#15
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Yet another heat issue
Quinch wrote: replaced my old and grindy heatsink with a new one... except when the CPU runs at full capacity, the temperature gradually creeps up, and keeps creeping up indefinitely {or until the CPU starts screaming in pre-shutdown agony}. The specs on the box say that it should go up to ~3K RPM, but SpeedFan never reported it going more than 2K-ish. Once the CPU eases off, the temperature quickly drops back into fifties and gradually down into upper thirties. There's a consistent layer of thermal paste across the chip. There's a bit of horizontal wiggle room with the heatsink in place, but it seems to fit snugly against the chip anyway. Pictures and crap: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...h/PB120246.jpg and http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...h/PB120248.jpg One thing for sure is that you applied the correct amount of thermal paste -- not too little (no voids seen), and definitely not too much (100% coverage but with transparent valleys between all those peaks, indicating near perfect thickness), so removing any paste won't help you. And because the compound shows lots of peaks and valleys, that indicates it's creamy and can flow freely when squeezed, therefore preventing a thick layer from remaining in place. The spring force between the heatsink and CPU is probably OK, and it's common to be able to wiggle the heatsink horizontally a bit. You can't make the CPU punch through the mobo by increasing the force, and with your motherboard's setup for clamping the heatsink in place, there's probably no risk in increasing the force (and probably no benefit). heatsink specs are http://www.spire-corp.com/main/produ...sp?ProdID=1140 , the CPU is a fairly oldish Athlon x2 dual core at 2.1Ghz. Which 2.1 GHz Athlon X2 dual core? Desktop versions seem to range from 45W maximum (BE2350) to about 90W (4000+ X2?), and that Spire heatsink is rated for a maximum of 95W. Spire's website says the maximum fan speed is 2,000 RPM, contrary to the 3,000 RPM claim on the box, and that heatsink seems to be all aluminum, but I believe the heatsinks AMD supplied with my 45-65W Athlons had copper slugs in the middle, but if not, at least each aluminum base was thicker than the Spire's, up to about 1/2" in the middle. OTOH their fans are just 70mm, vs. 92mm for your Spire's, and they typically spin at 1,300 - 1,600 RPM and the CPUs run at 50-55C under moderate load. 50-55C CPU temperature is nothing to worry about, except to junk quality electrolytic capacitors. However your capacitors don't show any bulging or oozing, and some of them seem like Nichicon brand model HM(M) (about 5-6 visible in your second photo, one is near the word "GIGABYTE" printed on the motherboard and the boxy coil marked "2R0"). Those are really good and long lasting unless they were made from about 2001-2004. You also probably have some United/Nippon Chemicon 3,300uF capacitors, about 7 above the CPU, near the boxy coils marked "R60". Those capacitors should be fine if they're model KZE, but Chemicon still has problems with their KZG and KZJ series, which the experts at BadCaps.net say can fail even if they don't bulge or ooze. If I had to choose between running junk capacitors at cool temperatures and running quality capacitors at hot temperatures, I'd definitely pick the latter every time. Bad capacitors cause problems with reliability, not high CPU temperature. Sorry for being long-winded, but I think your temperatures are normal, and maybe you should simply increase the temperatures for the high temperature alarm and shutdown. 60-70C is actually safe for operation. Also it wouldn't surprise me if the Spire heatsink wasn't very good. |
#16
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Yet another heat issue
larry moe 'n curly wrote:
Quinch wrote: replaced my old and grindy heatsink with a new one... except when the CPU runs at full capacity, the temperature gradually creeps up, and keeps creeping up indefinitely {or until the CPU starts screaming in pre-shutdown agony}. The specs on the box say that it should go up to ~3K RPM, but SpeedFan never reported it going more than 2K-ish. Once the CPU eases off, the temperature quickly drops back into fifties and gradually down into upper thirties. There's a consistent layer of thermal paste across the chip. There's a bit of horizontal wiggle room with the heatsink in place, but it seems to fit snugly against the chip anyway. Pictures and crap: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...h/PB120246.jpg and http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...h/PB120248.jpg One thing for sure is that you applied the correct amount of thermal paste -- not too little (no voids seen), and definitely not too much (100% coverage but with transparent valleys between all those peaks, indicating near perfect thickness), so removing any paste won't help you. And because the compound shows lots of peaks and valleys, that indicates it's creamy and can flow freely when squeezed, therefore preventing a thick layer from remaining in place. The spring force between the heatsink and CPU is probably OK, and it's common to be able to wiggle the heatsink horizontally a bit. You can't make the CPU punch through the mobo by increasing the force, and with your motherboard's setup for clamping the heatsink in place, there's probably no risk in increasing the force (and probably no benefit). heatsink specs are http://www.spire-corp.com/main/produ...sp?ProdID=1140 , the CPU is a fairly oldish Athlon x2 dual core at 2.1Ghz. Which 2.1 GHz Athlon X2 dual core? Desktop versions seem to range from 45W maximum (BE2350) to about 90W (4000+ X2?), and that Spire heatsink is rated for a maximum of 95W. Spire's website says the maximum fan speed is 2,000 RPM, contrary to the 3,000 RPM claim on the box, and that heatsink seems to be all aluminum, but I believe the heatsinks AMD supplied with my 45-65W Athlons had copper slugs in the middle, but if not, at least each aluminum base was thicker than the Spire's, up to about 1/2" in the middle. OTOH their fans are just 70mm, vs. 92mm for your Spire's, and they typically spin at 1,300 - 1,600 RPM and the CPUs run at 50-55C under moderate load. 50-55C CPU temperature is nothing to worry about, except to junk quality electrolytic capacitors. However your capacitors don't show any bulging or oozing, and some of them seem like Nichicon brand model HM(M) (about 5-6 visible in your second photo, one is near the word "GIGABYTE" printed on the motherboard and the boxy coil marked "2R0"). Those are really good and long lasting unless they were made from about 2001-2004. You also probably have some United/Nippon Chemicon 3,300uF capacitors, about 7 above the CPU, near the boxy coils marked "R60". Those capacitors should be fine if they're model KZE, but Chemicon still has problems with their KZG and KZJ series, which the experts at BadCaps.net say can fail even if they don't bulge or ooze. If I had to choose between running junk capacitors at cool temperatures and running quality capacitors at hot temperatures, I'd definitely pick the latter every time. Bad capacitors cause problems with reliability, not high CPU temperature. Sorry for being long-winded, but I think your temperatures are normal, and maybe you should simply increase the temperatures for the high temperature alarm and shutdown. 60-70C is actually safe for operation. Also it wouldn't surprise me if the Spire heatsink wasn't very good. What if it's shutting down on THERMTRIP ? I wouldn't expect THERMTRIP to be configurable by software. Some other shutdown method, could be configurable. I wish I'd noticed that URL from earlier in the thread. On the http://www.spire-corp.com/main/produ...sp?ProdID=1140 page, it lists theta_R as 0.388 C/W, so a person can actually do their own thermal analysis. http://www.gigabyte.com/support-down....aspx?pid=2818 "Socket AM2 - NVIDIA nForce 520LE - GA-M52L-S3 (rev. 2.0) Socket AM2 AMD Athlon X2 BE-2350 2100MHz 512KBx2 Brisbane 65nm G2 45W 2000 F6 AMD Athlon X2 BE-2350 2100MHz 512KBx2 Brisbane 65nm G1 45W 2000 F6 AMD Athlon 64 X2 4000+ 2100MHz 512KBx2 Brisbane 65nm G1 65W 2000 F6 AMD Sempron LE-1200 2100MHz 512KBx2 Sparta 65nm G1 45W 2000 F6 Socket AM3 Socket AM2+ AMD Phenom X3 8450 2100MHz 512KBx3 (but this is a triple core) So the processor could be the 4000+ (to get as oldish as possible). If the computer case air is 35C, then 35 + 65W*0.388C/W give a processor case temp of 60C max. Nothing wrong with that. If the temperature is going higher than that, then some assumption in that calculation is off. Either the computer internal case temperature is higher than 35C, the processor is actually drawing more than 65W, or the theta_R of the heatsink is higher than 0.388C/W. At 0.388C/W, that's the same as, or a little worse than, a retail cooler. Some of those are in the 0.33C/W ballpark. A good enthusiast cooler, one of those monster ones, can be 0.12C/W or so. What a monster cooler can't help with though, is if the inside of the computer case isn't cool enough. And then, a bigger fan on the back helps. One other possibility, is the cooler isn't sitting flat on the processor, but you might notice that, in the pattern in the paste when it is disassembled. If you clean off the surfaces, apply a rice grain of paste in the center, squish them together, then disassemble again later, the circular squish pattern tells you something about how the surfaces meet. If there are old and new paste materials involved, the old stuff should be removed first. For example, if there is a phase change compound, that is rather hard, that can elevate the heatsink and prevent good contact. I had one setup, where it took some scraping to get that stuff off (I didn't use sandpaper, and used a tool with an edge to get it off). In the BIOS on page 45 I see ftp://download.gigabyte.ru/manual/mo..._rev.2.0_e.pdf "System/CPU Warning Temperature Sets the warning threshold for system/CPU temperature BIOS will emit warning sound. Options 60C, 70C, 80C, 90C" If that is set up high, then maybe it'll be less annoying to use Speedfan or the like, to watch how high the CPU temp actually goes. THERMTRIP will shut it down, if it is too high. On the cpu-world.com web site, they list things like this for AMD processor feature set. What the first two are exactly, I don't know. But the third one, is a signal that comes out of the processor, and is used to turn off the ATX supply by deasserting PS_ON#. THERMTRIP is the option of last resort, and still works, even if the processor has crashed. Hardware thermal control Software thermal control THERMTRIP I can find a posting, where someone left their computer sitting in the BIOS, watched the temps in the hardware monitor screen, until it overheated and shut off. They list 105C as the last temperature measured. That would be a silicon die temperature, one would hope. To convert that to a case temperature (temp of the metal on the outside), subtract about 20-25C or so. So that would be about 80C case, which is 20C higher than the 60C case we expect by calculation. And your processor should only draw the 65W, when it's running prime95. If it overheats at idle, at that point it should not be drawing 65W. HTH, Paul |
#17
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Yet another heat issue
In article , "larry moe 'n curly" wrote:
Quinch wrote: replaced my old and grindy heatsink with a new one... except when the CPU runs at full capacity, the temperature gradually creeps up, and keeps creeping up indefinitely {or until the CPU starts screaming in pre-shutdown agony}. The specs on the box say that it should go up to ~3K RPM, but SpeedFan never reported it going more than 2K-ish. Once the CPU eases off, the temperature quickly drops back into fifties and gradually down into upper thirties. There's a consistent layer of thermal paste across the chip. There's a bit of horizontal wiggle room with the heatsink in place, but it seems to fit snugly against the chip anyway. Pictures and crap: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...h/PB120246.jpg and http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...h/PB120248.jpg One thing for sure is that you applied the correct amount of thermal paste -- not too little (no voids seen), and definitely not too much (100% coverage but with transparent valleys between all those peaks, indicating near perfect thickness), so removing any paste won't help you. And because the compound shows lots of peaks and valleys, that indicates it's creamy and can flow freely when squeezed, therefore preventing a thick layer from remaining in place. The spring force between the heatsink and CPU is probably OK, and it's common to be able to wiggle the heatsink horizontally a bit. You can't make the CPU punch through the mobo by increasing the force, and with your motherboard's setup for clamping the heatsink in place, there's probably no risk in increasing the force (and probably no benefit). heatsink specs are http://www.spire-corp.com/main/produ...sp?ProdID=1140 , the CPU is a fairly oldish Athlon x2 dual core at 2.1Ghz. Which 2.1 GHz Athlon X2 dual core? Desktop versions seem to range from 45W maximum (BE2350) to about 90W (4000+ X2?), and that Spire heatsink is rated for a maximum of 95W. Spire's website says the maximum fan speed is 2,000 RPM, contrary to the 3,000 RPM claim on the box, and that heatsink seems to be all aluminum, but I believe the heatsinks AMD supplied with my 45-65W Athlons had copper slugs in the middle, but if not, at least each aluminum base was thicker than the Spire's, up to about 1/2" in the middle. OTOH their fans are just 70mm, vs. 92mm for your Spire's, and they typically spin at 1,300 - 1,600 RPM and the CPUs run at 50-55C under moderate load. 50-55C CPU temperature is nothing to worry about, except to junk quality electrolytic capacitors. However your capacitors don't show any bulging or oozing, and some of them seem like Nichicon brand model HM(M) (about 5-6 visible in your second photo, one is near the word "GIGABYTE" printed on the motherboard and the boxy coil marked "2R0"). Those are really good and long lasting unless they were made from about 2001-2004. You also probably have some United/Nippon Chemicon 3,300uF capacitors, about 7 above the CPU, near the boxy coils marked "R60". Those capacitors should be fine if they're model KZE, but Chemicon still has problems with their KZG and KZJ series, which the experts at BadCaps.net say can fail even if they don't bulge or ooze. If I had to choose between running junk capacitors at cool temperatures and running quality capacitors at hot temperatures, I'd definitely pick the latter every time. Bad capacitors cause problems with reliability, not high CPU temperature. Sorry for being long-winded, but I think your temperatures are normal, and maybe you should simply increase the temperatures for the high temperature alarm and shutdown. 60-70C is actually safe for operation. Also it wouldn't surprise me if the Spire heatsink wasn't very good. 60-70c? Sure safe, but not at all average or normal for that CPU to run that hot. I agree, since you have tried repeatedly to change the amount of compound used, the next step is get a better heatsink with a copper core. I'd even suggest getting one with the heatpipes. I have an older Coolermaster Hyper48 unit in two of my systems that work a charm. http://www.frostytech.com/articlevie...articleID=1921 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835103157 Its the copper that does the magic, and aided by the heatpipes. Look for something similar to the Hyper48 i showed here and youll be very pleased. Those cheaper aluminum heatsinks do not cool well. |
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