SFF Intel vs. AMD tradeoffs

I'm putting together a Shuttle small form factor box and considering these
two builds. Any comments on the relative merits?

Shuttle XPC SP65 G case and motherboard combo
Intel P4 2.4 Ghz 800 processor
2x256 Mb OCZ PC 4000 gold memory
WD Raptor SATA drive
ATI Radeon 9600 XT (when available)
Approximate total cost : $1039 US

or

Shuttle XPC SN45G
AMD XP 2500 "Barton"
2x256Mb OCZ PC-3200 platinum
WD 80Gb IDE Ultra ATA100
ATI Radeon 9600 XT
Approximate total cost: $793 US

The Intel system will cost about $246 more. It will have integrated 802.11b
wireless LAN, SATA support, bigger power supply, and will probably benchmark
out about 25% faster. Is it worth the difference? Have I missed something?
My intent is to use this box as an easily transportable gaming, on the road
photo editing, and Internet machine . I will be using onboard sound. I
will attempt a reasonable overclock on either system.

Thanks

Thanks for your input, but there's a BIG difference between the 9600 XT and
previous models of the 9600 series. The 9600 XT is .13 micron and is the
first to use a new manufacturing process. The bottom line is that it
supposedly requires much less power and can run much cooler at increased
engine speeds. It has no secondary power plug and advertised core is about
a 25% faster than the 9600 Pro. It also comes with adaptive overclocking
and a temperature sensor on the card if I read the press release correctly.

Go he http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NTI5LDI=



"Happy Hippo" wrote in message
...

Also be careful that you can keep the case cool, since it's so small.
Therefore I'm not sure if the 9600 XT is a good choice. I heard that
the 9600 Series tend to get quite hot, since they are clocked quite
high and therefore generate a bit more than usual heat. ATI wanted to
make up for the fact that the 9600 chip has only half as many
pipelines as its predecessor the 9500 chipset. Maybe you should
consider a different graphics card that blows the warm air directly
out of the case, like the CPU cooling solution you.

Too high case temps affect not only CPU cooling but also the lifetime
of some other components on the mainboard as well, capacitors
especially. There's a rule of thumb that says the speed of a reaction
will double if the temperature is increased 10 °C. (by van't Hoff)

HH

Frank Weston wrote:
Thanks for your input, but there's a BIG difference between the 9600
XT and previous models of the 9600 series. The 9600 XT is .13 micron
and is the first to use a new manufacturing process. The bottom line
is that it supposedly requires much less power and can run much
cooler at increased engine speeds. It has no secondary power plug
and advertised core is about a 25% faster than the 9600 Pro. It also
comes with adaptive overclocking and a temperature sensor on the card
if I read the press release correctly.

Go he http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NTI5LDI=

The 'old' 9600 (Pro) was also .13 micron ;-) This one is clocked higher, so
it might not be the best choice indeed... IF you could set the temp to an
individual setting, it might be a viable option...

Thomas

"BoroLad" wrote in message
d.com...

Just one comment on cooling & PSU, if one or the other go will you need
to buy a whole new 'barebones' or can you buy spares ?

.1. I've never seen spares available anywhere in the world!

A quick web search shows these parts to be available:
http://www.auspcmarket.com.au/index....ode=CA-XPCPC30

.2. PSU / heat problems are rife in SFF

Never having built one or talked to someone who has, I have to go with
what's available online. Check here for a start:
http://www.anandtech.com/systems/sho...tml?i=1861&p=1 Then go to NewEgg
and read owner reviews. Do you have a SFF setup? Where do you get your
info? I'd like to read more.

.3. O/C? even PC3200/3700 is going to need 2.9[ish]v on memory

I'm now running a P4 with the same 865PE and ICH5 chips, and my OCZ memory
runs easily at 3700 on stock voltage. Are your referring to the AMD setup?
If so, the memory would be running PC3200 max, which is the spec for the
memory I have chosen, and stock voltage should also not be a problem.

"Thomas" wrote in message
news:cAaib.14644$732.1508448@zonnet-reader-1...

The 'old' 9600 (Pro) was also .13 micron ;-) This one is clocked higher,
so
it might not be the best choice indeed... IF you could set the temp to an
individual setting, it might be a viable option...


Since there's not testing yet done on the 9600 XT, I will be watching the
reviews and hoping that it proves to run as cool as ATI claims.

Thanks

In article , frank@weston-
american.com says...

"BoroLad" wrote in message
d.com...

Just one comment on cooling & PSU, if one or the other go will you need
to buy a whole new 'barebones' or can you buy spares ?

.1. I've never seen spares available anywhere in the world!

A quick web search shows these parts to be available:
http://www.auspcmarket.com.au/index....ode=CA-XPCPC30

.2. PSU / heat problems are rife in SFF

Never having built one or talked to someone who has, I have to go with
what's available online. Check here for a start:
http://www.anandtech.com/systems/sho...tml?i=1861&p=1 Then go to NewEgg
and read owner reviews. Do you have a SFF setup? Where do you get your
info? I'd like to read more.

.3. O/C? even PC3200/3700 is going to need 2.9[ish]v on memory

I'm now running a P4 with the same 865PE and ICH5 chips, and my OCZ memory
runs easily at 3700 on stock voltage. Are your referring to the AMD setup?
If so, the memory would be running PC3200 max, which is the spec for the
memory I have chosen, and stock voltage should also not be a problem.

Get my info same as you from the 'web', but built 22 Networked SFF's for
a client with cheap **** 'JetWay' OEM BareBones. Now whilst I agree that
there is a world of difference twixt 'shuttle' & 'JetWay' I soon
discovered that spares were virtually non-existant.

The I.C.E system that 'shuttle' use is an exciting looking system and
I've been trying to buy one for some time without results - don't want
one don't need one, just want one to 'play with'. The point is if if
goes tits up you can't get one without a RMA and if you RMA it's the
whole box not the bit only.

Best of luck with your project, wish you well!

BoroLad

If the specifications stated for the power supply are correct, it may be
marginal for a Pentium 4 2.4C CPU, a hard drive, and a CD device. The
specificed ten amperes at 12 VDC is a bit light and, unless it has power
sharing like the ATX 12VDC standards, might choke when the hard drive spins
up to speed, or when the hard drive and CD device spin up.

--
Phil Weldon, pweldonatmindjumpdotcom
For communication,
replace "at" with the 'at sign'
replace "mindjump" with "mindspring."
replace "dot" with "."


"Frank Weston" wrote in message
...

"BoroLad" wrote in message
d.com...

Just one comment on cooling & PSU, if one or the other go will you need
to buy a whole new 'barebones' or can you buy spares ?

.1. I've never seen spares available anywhere in the world!

A quick web search shows these parts to be available:

http://www.auspcmarket.com.au/index....ode=CA-XPCPC30

.2. PSU / heat problems are rife in SFF

Never having built one or talked to someone who has, I have to go with
what's available online. Check here for a start:
http://www.anandtech.com/systems/sho...tml?i=1861&p=1 Then go to
NewEgg
and read owner reviews. Do you have a SFF setup? Where do you get your
info? I'd like to read more.

.3. O/C? even PC3200/3700 is going to need 2.9[ish]v on memory

I'm now running a P4 with the same 865PE and ICH5 chips, and my OCZ memory
runs easily at 3700 on stock voltage. Are your referring to the AMD
setup?
If so, the memory would be running PC3200 max, which is the spec for the
memory I have chosen, and stock voltage should also not be a problem.

OK. Thanks. I'm going to build one anyway.

Now here's my original question: AMD or Intel for a SFF box? Why? Please
refer to my first post for details.






"Phil Weldon" wrote in message
hlink.net...
If the specifications stated for the power supply are correct, it may be
marginal for a Pentium 4 2.4C CPU, a hard drive, and a CD device. The
specificed ten amperes at 12 VDC is a bit light and, unless it has power
sharing like the ATX 12VDC standards, might choke when the hard drive
spins
up to speed, or when the hard drive and CD device spin up.

--
Phil Weldon, pweldonatmindjumpdotcom
For communication,
replace "at" with the 'at sign'
replace "mindjump" with "mindspring."
replace "dot" with "."


"Frank Weston" wrote in message
...

"BoroLad" wrote in message
d.com...

Just one comment on cooling & PSU, if one or the other go will you
need
to buy a whole new 'barebones' or can you buy spares ?

.1. I've never seen spares available anywhere in the world!

A quick web search shows these parts to be available:


http://www.auspcmarket.com.au/index....ode=CA-XPCPC30

.2. PSU / heat problems are rife in SFF

Never having built one or talked to someone who has, I have to go with
what's available online. Check here for a start:
http://www.anandtech.com/systems/sho...tml?i=1861&p=1 Then go to
NewEgg
and read owner reviews. Do you have a SFF setup? Where do you get
your
info? I'd like to read more.

.3. O/C? even PC3200/3700 is going to need 2.9[ish]v on memory

I'm now running a P4 with the same 865PE and ICH5 chips, and my OCZ
memory
runs easily at 3700 on stock voltage. Are your referring to the AMD
setup?
If so, the memory would be running PC3200 max, which is the spec for the
memory I have chosen, and stock voltage should also not be a problem.

"Frank Weston" wrote in message
...
OK. Thanks. I'm going to build one anyway.

Now here's my original question: AMD or Intel for a SFF box? Why?

Because of the power consumption, if I were to build a SSS box from scratch,
I'd consider a Pentium-M (which are much faster than their clock speed would
indicate).
URL: http://www.electronicstalk.com/news/rad/rad114.html

Since you're basically choosing between two pre-built systems, I'd recommend
the Pentium, still for lower power consumption and stronger power supply.
But jamming a 10000RPM drive and a Radeon 9600XT in with it? AND
overclocking? That's asking for trouble. Get a mid-tower case with decent
cooling and power supply instead, and use a strap to carry it. Unless
you're handicapped and can carry a Shuttle, but not a mid-tower-case, I
don't see the logic of your choice. Sure, the small boxes are cute, but is
it really going to be worth the problems, just for the looks? Especially
now, when everybody and their grandmother has one?

Regards,
--
*Art

I'm not sure what you mean about pre-built? Both systems would be assembled
from components, and I certainly would have to option to pick and choose if
anyone could make a recommendation based on experience. Since you know the
power/heat parameters of the RAPTOR and the 9600 XT, how do they compare
with other options? What would you recommend?

I own a couple of mid tower boxes (and a few towers and a laptop or two). I
find the engineering of the Shuttle SFF boxes intriguing, and exploring the
possibilities of a more portable and cleverly thought out machine is all the
logic I need. The fact that the system is "cute" or that someone's
grandmother may own one is just icing on the cake.....and what's the fun of
building a system and overclocking if there aren't any problems to be
ovecome or new technology to explore? Otherwise we could all just get our
computers from Sears.


"Arthur Hagen" wrote in message
...

"Frank Weston" wrote in message
...
OK. Thanks. I'm going to build one anyway.

Now here's my original question: AMD or Intel for a SFF box? Why?

Because of the power consumption, if I were to build a SSS box from
scratch,
I'd consider a Pentium-M (which are much faster than their clock speed
would
indicate).
URL: http://www.electronicstalk.com/news/rad/rad114.html

Since you're basically choosing between two pre-built systems, I'd
recommend
the Pentium, still for lower power consumption and stronger power supply.
But jamming a 10000RPM drive and a Radeon 9600XT in with it? AND
overclocking? That's asking for trouble. Get a mid-tower case with
decent
cooling and power supply instead, and use a strap to carry it. Unless
you're handicapped and can carry a Shuttle, but not a mid-tower-case, I
don't see the logic of your choice. Sure, the small boxes are cute, but
is
it really going to be worth the problems, just for the looks? Especially
now, when everybody and their grandmother has one?

Regards,
--
*Art