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Installing MoBo



 
 
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  #31  
Old November 27th 04, 03:20 AM
w_tom
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

As noted previously, motherboards would be manufactured for
many other configurations. But Intel 29835002.pdf recommends
only making a motherboard logic ground connection at far end,
and adjacent to other devices that also make a chassis ground
connection - IO peripheral cards.

Intel design guidelines recommend 'single point ground'
mounting via two mounting screws adjacent to IO card slots.
Intel guidelines also demonstrate that other mounting holes
not make an electrical chassis connection. Furthermore, note
extra grounding layers that Intel recommends in the single
point region for reducing ESD (chassis) noise into logic
ground.

Motherboard is best mounted using a single point ground
connection.

It was always good pc board practice to line every mounting
hole with copper feedthroughs. This does not mean all
mounting holes need or should make a connection to other
grounds. Those plated feedthroughs mechanically strengthen
each mounting hole. But Intel only recommends that two holes
make an electrically conductive connection to chassis.
Reasons why have been posted previously.

JAD wrote:
um if this is the case, what are MB manufactures trying to do? By
putting ground rings around each mount hole(on both sides in some
cases), they are in fact saying this point needs to be grounded. If
they did not want a ground point there, the ring should be non
conductive. Makes little sense and To point out 1 single scenario on
one particular board, and if it was DM stating it, knowing him he
probably stayed up all night finding the one 1 single situation that
supports whatever his point is.

  #32  
Old November 27th 04, 03:41 AM
David Maynard
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

w_tom wrote:

David Maynard provides an Intel example of the single point
ground technique. Intel recommends two screws at the far end


It is not at the 'far end'. They are as near the potential ESD entry poin=
t=20
as possible but HALF way across the motherboard, over 6 inches, from each=
=20
other.

of a motherboard so that, again, electrical currents in the
chassis do not pass through motherboard logic ground. The
single point ground, IO board connections, and power input
connect to chassis at the same single point - at the far end
of a motherboard. Where I recommended only one screw
connection, Intel recommends two in the same location to
create the single point ground at the farthest edge of
motherboard.


"Two" is not a "single point."

Demonstrated by page 30 of that Intel 815E Chipset Platform
document, no currents across electronic sections


Correct, because they are shunted to chassis *there* instead of seeking=20
your 'single point ground'.

The motherboard ground also transverses the PSU power cable to the PSU's =

chassis ground; which makes for THREE chassis ground points in just this =

limited example.

And then, each AGP/PCI card with I/O will have it's chassis end plate=20
connected to ground. And then there's the drives which have logic to=20
chassis ground connections. There's logic/chassis ground connections all =

OVER the place.


of
motherboard means no computer crashes due to static electric
discharges to chassis. Best not to mount motherboard with
conductive connections everywhere. Intel recommends only two
connection, both at the far edge to make same single point
ground - adjacent to IO slots and power connector. Intel
document does not recommend conductive standoffs everywhere on
motherboard - as I had posted.


The issue was not about a connection 'everywhere'. The issue was your=20
patently false claim that only ONE is the only suitable means.

=20
David Maynard wrote:
=20
...
Look up Intel 29835002.pdf, Intel=AE 815E Chipset Platform Design Guide=

,
section 2.2 Electrostatic Discharge Platform Recommendations where it
specifies connecting *two* motherboard mounting holes to ground, one
on each side of the rear I/O area, so that any ESD there is shunted to
case in the shortest possible path.
...


  #33  
Old November 27th 04, 04:13 AM
w_tom
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Actually one screw to chassis is a single point just as two
screws were a single point. The single point was the entire
region that included IO slots, single screw to chassis, and
power supply connection. This single point (or region) is
located at the far end of PC board to that no transient
current passes through sensitive electronics regions.

Again I emphasis an Intel recommendation that the single
point area have additional grounding layers. Just more reason
for any ESD currents to remain in the single point region and
not taken scenic tours through the sensitive digital
electronic areas.

I noted an Intel suggestion of more grounding at the chassis
connection area. I did not bother to explain why while
wondering if you understood the significance of that
additional motherboard grounding. I guess not.

Intel demonstrates single point grounding. This so that
transient currents in chassis do not pass across logic ground
plane where transients could cause computer crashes. Computer
assemblers are advised to heed Intel recommendations. Do not
connect motherboard to chassis at every mounting point - to
increase computer reliability. A technique long practiced by
experienced and learned engineers. A practice that many
computer assemblers still deny - even after an Intel *pdf
document demonstrates the concept.

Again it is a so simple concept. Connect logic ground to
chassis ground so that transient current on chassis will not
pass through motherboard. It is called a single point
ground. It is even demonstrated by the cited Intel document
that YOU provided. I must assume you did not comprehend what
Intel wrote. For some, the complexities of grounding were
previously unknown. Grounding is but another reason why ESD
solutions can appear complex.

BTW I did not say "that only ONE is the only suitable
means". Read back. I posted other means of obtaining the
single point ground. Another was to connect every mounting
hole the a chassis plate, and then have only one electrical
connection from chassis plate to chassis. Why did you forget
this and other single point grounding solutions? Is being
wrong (again) so hard to admit?

We keep doing this. I provide facts and electrical
concepts. You keep denying it; all without demonstrating
knowledge of engineering principles. This time it is more
interesting. You provided the Intel document that
demonstrates what I had posted. Interesting new way to deny
basic electrical principles. Deny them and then cite an Intel
document that disagrees with your denial. Yes, I am amused.

David Maynard wrote:
It is not at the 'far end'. They are as near the potential ESD
entry point as possible but HALF way across the motherboard, over
6 inches, from each other.

of a motherboard so that, again, electrical currents in the
chassis do not pass through motherboard logic ground. The
single point ground, IO board connections, and power input
connect to chassis at the same single point - at the far end
of a motherboard. Where I recommended only one screw
connection, Intel recommends two in the same location to
create the single point ground at the farthest edge of
motherboard.


"Two" is not a "single point."

Demonstrated by page 30 of that Intel 815E Chipset Platform
document, no currents across electronic sections


Correct, because they are shunted to chassis *there* instead of
seeking your 'single point ground'.

The motherboard ground also transverses the PSU power cable to the
PSU's chassis ground; which makes for THREE chassis ground points
in just this limited example.

And then, each AGP/PCI card with I/O will have it's chassis end
plate connected to ground. And then there's the drives which have
logic to chassis ground connections. There's logic/chassis ground
connections all OVER the place.

of
motherboard means no computer crashes due to static electric
discharges to chassis. Best not to mount motherboard with
conductive connections everywhere. Intel recommends only two
connection, both at the far edge to make same single point
ground - adjacent to IO slots and power connector. Intel
document does not recommend conductive standoffs everywhere on
motherboard - as I had posted.


The issue was not about a connection 'everywhere'. The issue was your
patently false claim that only ONE is the only suitable means.


David Maynard wrote:

...
Look up Intel 29835002.pdf, Intel® 815E Chipset Platform Design Guide,
section 2.2 Electrostatic Discharge Platform Recommendations where it
specifies connecting *two* motherboard mounting holes to ground, one
on each side of the rear I/O area, so that any ESD there is shunted to
case in the shortest possible path.
...

  #34  
Old November 27th 04, 05:00 AM
John Doe
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

w_tom wrote:

He cannot challenge the science, so his reasoning goes
something like this. The manufacturer does this and says
nothing. Therefore the manufacturer expected you to do that.
Scientific proof? Of course not.


That leaves out the circumstantial evidence (see my prior post)
which IMO is very convincing.




snipped nonsense

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  #35  
Old November 27th 04, 03:58 PM
Gary
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 20:01:08 -0500, w_tom wrote:

Motherboards are designed for numerous configurations. Some
configurations may want single point ground located
elsewhere. Some configurations may attach the entire
motherboard to chassis plate, and insulate chassis plate so
that single point ground is between chassis plate and
chassis. Furthermore, all mounting holes must be plated
through. Computer assembler is expected to bring basic
electrical knowledge to the assembly. He - not the
motherboard manufacturer - decides where the single point
ground will be made. Motherboard manufacture makes products
with numerous options. Computer assembler decides how to
implement those options.

Cross talk and other problems are why computer boards are
multi-layer assemblies using a copper plane for ground and
other planes for Vcc. Same problems also why Intel (not the
PC board designer) defines exact copper layout for PC traces
to CPU. The layout is that critical. Electronic nature even
of copper is but one reason why a CPU power supply is adjacent
to the CPU and why newer ATX power supplies have a second
power cable.

Measure the conductivity between too ends of that
motherboard ground plane. To meter, DC voltage is a perfect
short. In reality, electric currents are RF electricity. No
copper - even the ground plane - is a perfect conductor. All
copper has significant impedance. Impedance (not resistance)
is why Intel provides a layout for connections to their CPUs.
Impedance is why bypass capacitors are scattered all over the
motherboard. Conductors are electronic components when
discussing RF currents to computers and in external generated
transients. RF is why copper is not truly conductive.

If copper were truly conductive, then antennas would not
transmit and receive. Best antennas have near zero resistance
and a specific impedance. The impedance (not resistance)
makes multiple grounding of a motherboard problematic. Just
another reason why grounds are at a single point.

All conductors are electronic components. As Gary notes:
... at the frequencies modern computer systems operate at they
have to use multiple grounds otherwise the systems become
inoperable/unreliable because of cross talk.


Problems are not just limited cross talk. Cross talk alone
is not the reason for all those bypass capacitors. All PC
traces and even the PC board ground plane are electronic
components. Some currents (ie static electricity) through a
ground plane can cause catastrophic consequences especially in
hospital equipment. All grounds must be interconnected. So
again, the interconnections between various grounds use the
single point concept. Hospitals take the concept even one
step farther. Hospitals do single point grounding on a room
and on a building wide level.

Bottom line for computer assemblers who learn new tricks - a
single point connection between motherboard and chassis plate
is best adjacent to IO slots and power connection. This post
demonstrates another technical reason why: all conductors are
electronic components; especially when dealing with RF
frequencies in computers and in static electric discharges.
Just another reason why more reliable computers uses the
single point grounding technique.

"We never did that before. Therefore we don't have to do
that." People with this mentality need not reply. Unlike
other posts that disagree, these posts technically explain
why, provide examples, and provide experiments to demonstrate
the problem. IOW these posts are based upon the science and
not upon the myths so common among computer assemblers. These
posts are for those who keep learning new techniques. Single
point grounding of motherboard to chassis is the preferred
mounting method. Provided here is but another reason why: RF
currents make copper an electronic component. The relevant
parameter is impedance.


Here's a URL from *NASA* at the Marshall space flight center regarding
the use of single point VS multiple point grounding and they show the
frequency cutoff regions between single point and multiple point
grounding. Scroll down to figure 4.

http://klabs.org/DEI/References/desi...s/1214msfc.pdf

With a 1 foot ground plane at frequencies up to 3 MHz they recommend
single point grounding. With the same size ground plane up to 10 MHz
they recommend hybrid grounds, At frequencies at and above 30 MHz
they recommend multiple point grounds.

I've got an amateur radio transceiver about the size of a bible that
on transmit puts out 55 watts of power on our 2 meter VHF band ( 144 -
148 megahertz ) It'll also receive from 136 to 174 megahertz. The
receive section is a double conversion super heterodyne with a first
intermediate frequency of 15 megahertz and a 2nd intermediate
frequency of 450 Kilohertz. It's synthesized with most likely a phase
locked loop. With that amount of power and the frequency conversion
sections It's no doubt got all kinds of RF potentially floating around
inside. Recently it developed a popping sound through the speaker on
transmit and some of the radios also had the popping sound on their
transmitted audio. I did a search on one of the Yahoo groups
concerning this particular radio and some of the them had left the
factory without the grounding screws being sufficiently tightened. The
cure was easy. According to the instructions you merely had to loosen
the eight *grounding* screws on the circuit board and retighten them
nice and snug so that they made a good ground contact and maybe even
use some star washers for extra good grounding. I just loosened the
eight screws, then tightened them nice and snug ( eight grounding
points ) and the popping noise went away.

Now this is a commercially constructed radio from one of ham radio's
premier brands ( Icom ) and they had *eight* grounding points from
the circuit board to chassis ground.

I'm not going to get into a real lengthy debate as if you want to use
just one ground point on your mother board feel free to do so, But
when I see and use commercially built equipment that has to deal with
all kinds of radio frequencies potentially floating around inside
using multiple ground points and see soldered through holes on
computer motherboards that have ground traces connected to them and
brass stand offs that match the location of the grounded circles it
seems painfully obvious that the motherboard manufacturer intended for
those soldered circle to be connected to ground.

Someone *has* to make a *conscious* effort to run a ground trace to
those soldered circles. If they were just there for support of the
motherboard they could easily just leave the ground trace off of it.

You can have the last word as you seem steeped in the concept that
single point grounding is the cure all concept covering every device
that operates from direct current to the frequency of light.

Single point grounding does have its place but when it comes to radio
frequencies in the hundreds of megahertz + , you're dealing with an
entirely different animal than direct current or low frequency RF.


Gary




Gary wrote:
I read the article and it mainly deals with analog devices
and/or A/D
converters and low frequency PIC chips. While it is true that multiple
grounds can create ground loops creating hum in audio or telephone
circuits we're dealing with radio frequencies in the hundreds of
megahertz for the system bus / memory and in the gigahertz region in
the case of the processor.

What the article didn't address and is more of a concern to
motherboard manufacturers is cross talk. One example of cross talk is
noise from one set of data / memory lines at 100/133/400 megahertz
bleeding over onto another set of data / memory lines. In computer
circuitry this is disastrous. What may be a ground at DC or in low
level audio or radio circuits can be a great antenna for radiating
noise at 100+ megahertz. I'm an amateur radio licensee and I've got an
antenna that's at DC ground potential. If you measured the resistance
between the two leads to it, its a dead short and would be a short
even up to the range of several megahertz. But if is a great antenna
at 144 thru 148 Megahertz. ( Our 2 meter VHF band )

I've gone over this years ago with another person and I did a search
and found a web site of a computerized medical equipment manufacturer
( not too much room for error there ) and they stated just what I
have above and that is at the frequencies modern computer systems
operate at they have to use multiple grounds otherwise the systems
become inoperable/unreliable because of cross talk. The late 70's era
Radio Shack Model 1's expansion interface was a classic example of
cross talk. It was housed in a plastic case and radiated almost as
much cross talk inducing noise as a radio station and was notoriously
unstable. It only ran at around 1 megahertz if memory serves me
correctly.

You'd also have to ask yourself if motherboard manufacturers didn't
want the motherboards to be grounded to the brass standoffs why do
they conveniently put a couple of soldered circles right in the exact
spot where those standoffs are ? As an experiment you can take and
attach the power leads part way onto the motherboard ( so the tips of
your ohmmeter can connect to the metal surfaces ), then take an
ohmmeter and measure the resistance between those soldered circles and
the ground wires and you'll find that it's a dead short, at least it
was on any motherboard I've ever checked.

HTH

Gary


  #36  
Old November 28th 04, 03:06 AM
David Maynard
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

w_tom wrote:

Actually one screw to chassis is a single point just as two
screws were a single point. The single point was the entire
region that included IO slots, single screw to chassis, and
power supply connection. This single point (or region) is
located at the far end of PC board to that no transient
current passes through sensitive electronics regions.=20
=20
Again I emphasis an Intel recommendation that the single
point area have additional grounding layers. Just more reason
for any ESD currents to remain in the single point region and
not taken scenic tours through the sensitive digital
electronic areas.
=20
I noted an Intel suggestion of more grounding at the chassis
connection area. I did not bother to explain why while
wondering if you understood the significance of that
additional motherboard grounding. I guess not.
=20
Intel demonstrates single point grounding. This so that
transient currents in chassis do not pass across logic ground
plane where transients could cause computer crashes. Computer
assemblers are advised to heed Intel recommendations. Do not
connect motherboard to chassis at every mounting point - to
increase computer reliability. A technique long practiced by
experienced and learned engineers. A practice that many
computer assemblers still deny - even after an Intel *pdf
document demonstrates the concept.
=20
Again it is a so simple concept. Connect logic ground to
chassis ground so that transient current on chassis will not
pass through motherboard. It is called a single point
ground. It is even demonstrated by the cited Intel document
that YOU provided. I must assume you did not comprehend what
Intel wrote. For some, the complexities of grounding were
previously unknown. Grounding is but another reason why ESD
solutions can appear complex.
=20
BTW I did not say "that only ONE is the only suitable
means". Read back. I posted other means of obtaining the
single point ground. Another was to connect every mounting
hole the a chassis plate, and then have only one electrical
connection from chassis plate to chassis. Why did you forget
this and other single point grounding solutions? Is being
wrong (again) so hard to admit?
=20
We keep doing this. I provide facts and electrical
concepts. You keep denying it; all without demonstrating
knowledge of engineering principles. This time it is more
interesting. You provided the Intel document that
demonstrates what I had posted. Interesting new way to deny
basic electrical principles. Deny them and then cite an Intel
document that disagrees with your denial. Yes, I am amused.



LOL. Well, with your song and dance about 'two' being 'single point' and =

using 'point', 'area', and 'region' as if they are 'equivalent', that mak=
es=20
two of us, then.

As for what you said, and I quote, "Motherboard logic ground best joins=20
chassis ground at a single point using a single conductive standoff." Now=
,=20
for the rational people of the world, 'single' means 'one' and a 'single =

conductive standoff' is one screw electrically contacting the motherboard=
=20
mounting hole ground and the one grounded standoff; not two, or more. (Yo=
ur=20
'alternative' that one can somehow modify their ATX cases so that there i=
s=20
"one electrical connection from chassis plate to chassis" is so comical a=
s=20
to not need further discourse).

Your miss characterization of the Intel PDF is equally scrambled. The=20
section is titled "Electrostatic Discharge Platform Recommendations" and =

that is what it deals with: ESD and ESD only. The recommendation for two =

connections in the motherboard rear I/O area to the chassis plate is for =

that purpose and says nothing about 'single point' (because it isn't) nor=
=20
'no more anywhere else', as you erroneously claim.

You've gone from "single conductive standoff" to declaring 'two' conducti=
ve=20
standoffs, separated by over 6 inches, (which in and of itself is enough =
to=20
disprove the 'single conductive standoff' argument) are really a 'single =

point' to now claiming the entire side of the board, including I/O slots,=
=20
is a 'single point REGION'. (For those rightly baffled by w-tom's jumblin=
g=20
of the terms, creating a single (constant) *potential* 'region' is the=20
purpose of a ground plane [or any power plane] and is not a 'single point=
'=20
of anything. If one then connects something [such as another 'region', e.=
g.=20
analog ground] to that 'region' through a single conductive path then you=
=20
have made a 'single point' connection because current can only flow betwe=
en=20
the two regions at the 'single point' of contact.)

At this rate you'll be claiming the whole bloody system is a 'single poin=
t=20
region' in two or three more go rounds.

I only mentioned that particular PDF because you appear to have little=20
awareness of anything but ESD and that's what it dealt with. And, to a=20
rational person, two (not to mention an entire row of PCI end plates) not=
=20
being equal to one, or a 'single point', would have been obvious enough a=
nd=20
sufficient.

There are, of course, other considerations and, if we look to Intel=20
document 24333402.pdf, Design For EMI, we find in section 3.0 Board EMI=20
Design Recommendations, 3.1 Grounding Considerations: "Provide multiple=20
direct metal-to-metal contacts for circuit board grounds to the chassis
connections, unless the circuit ground must float. Unintended insulation =

formed by paint overspray, washers, or non-conductive coatings degrade th=
e=20
ground connection and increase radiation levels."

As John Doe intuitively, and correctly, surmised, if the motherboard=20
manufacturer went to the trouble of putting ground pads around the mounti=
ng=20
hole then they intend for it to be grounded there.

Now he knows why.


David Maynard wrote:
=20
It is not at the 'far end'. They are as near the potential ESD
entry point as possible but HALF way across the motherboard, over
6 inches, from each other.


of a motherboard so that, again, electrical currents in the
chassis do not pass through motherboard logic ground. The
single point ground, IO board connections, and power input
connect to chassis at the same single point - at the far end
of a motherboard. Where I recommended only one screw
connection, Intel recommends two in the same location to
create the single point ground at the farthest edge of
motherboard.


"Two" is not a "single point."


Demonstrated by page 30 of that Intel 815E Chipset Platform
document, no currents across electronic sections


Correct, because they are shunted to chassis *there* instead of
seeking your 'single point ground'.

The motherboard ground also transverses the PSU power cable to the
PSU's chassis ground; which makes for THREE chassis ground points
in just this limited example.

And then, each AGP/PCI card with I/O will have it's chassis end
plate connected to ground. And then there's the drives which have
logic to chassis ground connections. There's logic/chassis ground
connections all OVER the place.


of
motherboard means no computer crashes due to static electric
discharges to chassis. Best not to mount motherboard with
conductive connections everywhere. Intel recommends only two
connection, both at the far edge to make same single point
ground - adjacent to IO slots and power connector. Intel
document does not recommend conductive standoffs everywhere on
motherboard - as I had posted.


The issue was not about a connection 'everywhere'. The issue was your
patently false claim that only ONE is the only suitable means.


David Maynard wrote:


...
Look up Intel 29835002.pdf, Intel=AE 815E Chipset Platform Design Gui=

de,
section 2.2 Electrostatic Discharge Platform Recommendations where it=


specifies connecting *two* motherboard mounting holes to ground, one
on each side of the rear I/O area, so that any ESD there is shunted t=

o
case in the shortest possible path.
...


  #37  
Old November 28th 04, 03:29 AM
David Maynard
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

w_tom wrote:

snip of already disproved mumbo jumbo

It was always good pc board practice to line every mounting
hole with copper feedthroughs. This does not mean all
mounting holes need or should make a connection to other
grounds. Those plated feedthroughs mechanically strengthen
each mounting hole. But Intel only recommends that two holes
make an electrically conductive connection to chassis.
Reasons why have been posted previously.


This is just more nonsensical babble. In the first place, most, if not all
(I can't swear to having seen every motherboard), motherboard mounting
holes are not plated through. And, even if they were, there is nothing
whatsoever that 'requires' the hole plating, nor the surrounding annulus
(if there is one), to be electrically connected to anything in the
motherboard circuitry.

So, if the motherboard manufacturer wanted to 'strengthen' the mounting
holes they can do so without needing any 'insulating' washers when you
mount the thing but, when you see a mounting hole with a surrounding
annulus and 6 to 9 'bumps' in it, those are via connections to the ground
plane showing you that, by golly, they WANT that sucker electrically connected.



JAD wrote:

um if this is the case, what are MB manufactures trying to do? By
putting ground rings around each mount hole(on both sides in some
cases), they are in fact saying this point needs to be grounded. If
they did not want a ground point there, the ring should be non
conductive. Makes little sense and To point out 1 single scenario on
one particular board, and if it was DM stating it, knowing him he
probably stayed up all night finding the one 1 single situation that
supports whatever his point is.


 




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