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Can ATX PSU blow the mainboard?



 
 
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  #31  
Old November 10th 13, 08:14 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Flasherly[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,407
Default Can ATX PSU blow the mainboard?

On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 08:53:41 -0800 (PST), wrote:

What caused a failure? A specific part in conjunction with how PSUs
work is required for any valid conclusion. Most every PSU analyzed
(by making it functional) failed due to manufacturing defects.

Spec sheets should include spec numbers that say it cannot damage
the disk drive or motherboard. Required protection that might be
missing IF written specifications do not say it exists. Conclusions
only from observation (also called wild speculation) do not say why
failures happen. If the PSU is properly designed, then it does not
damage disk drives. And the load (motherboard or even a short
circuit) does not damage the PSU.

Failing capacitors do not damage electronics. But it does explain
strange and intermittent problems that some even blame on a virus
(software) or surges. Speculation based only in observation is
classic junk science. The load does not damage a properly designed
PSU - as was standard long before PCs existed.

--
Conclusions from observation are also called empiricism, (expounded by
John Locke, George Berkeley, and David Hume);- ipso facto, because the
timeframe is archaic, however, isn't conclusive that the methodology
is, in fact, quackery.

No, these are not garbage-assembled PSUs I'm referring to. Deferring
further back to my first PS problem, I'd date back to roughly around
when standard computer operations were performed on an Intel 8088
4.47Mhz MPU, on a MB I'd replaced the Intel for a NEC V20 at 8Mhz.
(I'd also equipped it with 3Meg of RAM via an ISA RAMPAGE board for
swapping programs concurrently in and out of memory.)

With a Q80 tape drive unit, I ran into a problem with the tapes
experiencing corruption. Exasperated, I'd replaced, "swapped out" the
entire computer, on my own assembly and build from parts ordered,
still, without any luck to have correctly addressed the Q80 tape
problem. Whereupon a thought occurred the PSU was the culprit.

I then wrapped the PS with tin-foil, ostensibly, to determine I'd
stopped spurious RF propagation from (somehow) entering the tape
during backup processes. Nevertheless, the problem was solved by a
tinfoil-wrapped PSU. Based entirely upon thought and observation.
Incidental to some commitment to the PC industry for reserves of
expensive money, (of course destined to FED Chairman Greenspan's
committal to shutting down an overheated PC industry), in a modular
approach to the homeowner's perspective to a build.

Going forward in time to the present PS units, we're really much
better off with what's being economically offered viz-a-viz quality
among components manufactured. And I was right in the thick of it,
dollar cost averaging my present computer builds with gorgeously
reviewed PS units -- well, a tier up in reception from assembler's
perspectives, as opposed to ready-made computers -- usually from a
rebate on severely discounting the PSUs I fed that particular ASUS MB.

But, I'm entirely with you. Damned and not equipped, from time and
involvement well enough to qualify me for a PC historian, if not
numbering among the ranks of its garage-building pioneers, to now come
up with an offer and better explanation for why that MB broke-down and
consumed a steady diet of PSUs.

Don't get me wrong, friend. I'm good. Just not that good.
  #32  
Old November 11th 13, 12:59 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
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Posts: 73
Default Can ATX PSU blow the mainboard?

On Sunday, November 10, 2013 2:14:41 PM UTC-5, Flasherly wrote:
I then wrapped the PS with tin-foil, ostensibly, to determine I'd
stopped spurious RF propagation from (somehow) entering the tape
during backup processes. Nevertheless, the problem was solved by a
tinfoil-wrapped PSU.


If RF radiation caused a tape drive problem, that tape drive was defective by design. If a PSU was radiating that much RF, then that PSU was defective by design.

Today's power supplies are not necessarily better than what powered 8080 based computers (before PCs). For example, the original IBM PC featured a 'Power Good' signal so that corrupting execution would not happen with defective power.

I recently bought a used supply. Opened it. Discovered missing and required filters. Holes for those part existed. Jumpers were installed so that the manufacturer could cut costs by 'forgetting' required parts. Then I noticed other missing circuits. So I continued the investigation.

Power Good signal for this recently built computer did not monitor voltages. 12 and 3.3 volts could be missing. Five volts could have been only three volts. And that Power Good signal would report all voltages OK. A major fubar existed because so many computer techs do not even know basic PSU functions.

This 'defective by design' supply - promoted as an ATX supply - could explain why power loss corrupts data and other problems. An example of PSUs marketed to computer assemblers who 'feel' they are computer savvy rather than learn what a PSU does.

How many 'know' unexpected power loss is destructive? Many saw a sudden power loss create other failures. Then assume power loss is destructive - using observation or hearsay as fact. Unexpected power loss never causes damage to properly designed equipment - not even disk drives. But many just know because they saw damage. Or learned from hearsay. Assumed a conclusion based upon observation.

If enclosing a PSU in tin foil eliminates failure, then a 'symptom' is defined; not a solution. First find symptoms - especially those that are reproducible. Solutions come later after identifying a reason for that symptom. A defectively designed PSU? A defectively manufactured tape drive? Tin foil did not cure a problem; only cured a symptom. Since a PSU must not output major RF. And tape drives must make RF radiation irrelevant.

Our current PSU standards are roundly superior to what existed before the IBM PC. And still many consumers buy PSUs that are inferior to old technology. A computer assembler (not the PSU manufacturer) is responsible for what is inside a computer's PSU. Many computer assemblers do not even know that.

Properly designed PSUs are not damaged by the load. An overheated PSU must not cause computer damage. And would not cause a destructive surge. Early posters noted this. And also recommended a tool that every informed computer troubleshooter uses - a meter. So that problems are identified (with numbers) before fixing anything.

A PSU damaged by its motherboard would be as defective as that PSU with a bad Power Good signal.
  #33  
Old November 11th 13, 01:24 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Chris S.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 64
Default Can ATX PSU blow the mainboard?


wrote in message
...
On Sunday, November 10, 2013 2:14:41 PM UTC-5, Flasherly wrote:
I then wrapped the PS with tin-foil, ostensibly, to determine I'd
stopped spurious RF propagation from (somehow) entering the tape
during backup processes. Nevertheless, the problem was solved by a
tinfoil-wrapped PSU.


If RF radiation caused a tape drive problem, that tape drive was defective
by design. If a PSU was radiating that much RF, then that PSU was defective
by design.

Today's power supplies are not necessarily better than what powered 8080
based computers (before PCs). For example, the original IBM PC featured a
'Power Good' signal so that corrupting execution would not happen with
defective power.

I recently bought a used supply. Opened it. Discovered missing and
required filters. Holes for those part existed. Jumpers were installed so
that the manufacturer could cut costs by 'forgetting' required parts. Then
I noticed other missing circuits. So I continued the investigation.

Power Good signal for this recently built computer did not monitor
voltages. 12 and 3.3 volts could be missing. Five volts could have been
only three volts. And that Power Good signal would report all voltages OK.
A major fubar existed because so many computer techs do not even know basic
PSU functions.

This 'defective by design' supply - promoted as an ATX supply - could
explain why power loss corrupts data and other problems. An example of PSUs
marketed to computer assemblers who 'feel' they are computer savvy rather
than learn what a PSU does.

How many 'know' unexpected power loss is destructive? Many saw a sudden
power loss create other failures. Then assume power loss is destructive -
using observation or hearsay as fact. Unexpected power loss never causes
damage to properly designed equipment - not even disk drives. But many just
know because they saw damage. Or learned from hearsay. Assumed a conclusion
based upon observation.

If enclosing a PSU in tin foil eliminates failure, then a 'symptom' is
defined; not a solution. First find symptoms - especially those that are
reproducible. Solutions come later after identifying a reason for that
symptom. A defectively designed PSU? A defectively manufactured tape
drive? Tin foil did not cure a problem; only cured a symptom. Since a PSU
must not output major RF. And tape drives must make RF radiation
irrelevant.

Our current PSU standards are roundly superior to what existed before the
IBM PC. And still many consumers buy PSUs that are inferior to old
technology. A computer assembler (not the PSU manufacturer) is responsible
for what is inside a computer's PSU. Many computer assemblers do not even
know that.

Properly designed PSUs are not damaged by the load. An overheated PSU
must not cause computer damage. And would not cause a destructive surge.
Early posters noted this. And also recommended a tool that every informed
computer troubleshooter uses - a meter. So that problems are identified
(with numbers) before fixing anything.

A PSU damaged by its motherboard would be as defective as that PSU with a
bad Power Good signal.

+ A lot. Well said
Chris

  #34  
Old November 11th 13, 03:30 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Flasherly[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,407
Default Can ATX PSU blow the mainboard?

On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 15:59:02 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Sunday, November 10, 2013 2:14:41 PM UTC-5, Flasherly wrote:
I then wrapped the PS with tin-foil, ostensibly, to determine I'd
stopped spurious RF propagation from (somehow) entering the tape
during backup processes. Nevertheless, the problem was solved by a
tinfoil-wrapped PSU.


If RF radiation caused a tape drive problem, that tape drive was
defective by design. If a PSU was radiating that much RF, then that
PSU was defective by design.

Today's power supplies are not necessarily better than what powered
8080 based computers (before PCs). For example, the original IBM PC
featured a 'Power Good' signal so that corrupting execution would not
happen with defective power.

I recently bought a used supply. Opened it. Discovered missing and
required filters. Holes for those part existed. Jumpers were
installed so that the manufacturer could cut costs by 'forgetting'
required parts. Then I noticed other missing circuits. So I
continued the investigation.

Power Good signal for this recently built computer did not monitor
voltages. 12 and 3.3 volts could be missing. Five volts could have
been only three volts. And that Power Good signal would report all
voltages OK. A major fubar existed because so many computer techs do
not even know basic PSU functions.

This 'defective by design' supply - promoted as an ATX supply -
could explain why power loss corrupts data and other problems. An
example of PSUs marketed to computer assemblers who 'feel' they are
computer savvy rather than learn what a PSU does.

How many 'know' unexpected power loss is destructive? Many saw a
sudden power loss create other failures. Then assume power loss is
destructive - using observation or hearsay as fact. Unexpected power
loss never causes damage to properly designed equipment - not even
disk drives. But many just know because they saw damage. Or learned
from hearsay. Assumed a conclusion based upon observation.

If enclosing a PSU in tin foil eliminates failure, then a 'symptom'
is defined; not a solution. First find symptoms - especially those
that are reproducible. Solutions come later after identifying a
reason for that symptom. A defectively designed PSU? A defectively
manufactured tape drive? Tin foil did not cure a problem; only cured
a symptom. Since a PSU must not output major RF. And tape drives
must make RF radiation irrelevant.

Our current PSU standards are roundly superior to what existed
before the IBM PC. And still many consumers buy PSUs that are inferior
to old technology. A computer assembler (not the PSU manufacturer) is
responsible for what is inside a computer's PSU. Many computer
assemblers do not even know that.

Properly designed PSUs are not damaged by the load. An overheated
PSU must not cause computer damage. And would not cause a destructive
surge. Early posters noted this. And also recommended a tool that
every informed computer troubleshooter uses - a meter. So that
problems are identified (with numbers) before fixing anything.

A PSU damaged by its motherboard would be as defective as that PSU
with a bad Power Good signal.

--
The RF PS problem would eventually have been correctly rectified by a
non-defective PS unit, I ordered, when I observed the problem
continued to exist with a mis-diagnosed, entire inner-computer
replacement, upon simply covering the faults of the same PS with
tinfoil.

Lesson 1: Quality PSUs are important and good to own. I've went
through years with several budget units and found, on average, their
life span sub par to quality units.

The opposite, however, quality PSUs continuing to fault over a course
of years for a MB to become suspect was new to me. True, an onus is
ultimately the responsibility of the assembler to open the PSU,
inspect and monitor it for proper operation. Paying a little extra
for reputability on the part of a jobber, middleman supplier of
computer components to stock known and reputable parts is within
pragmatic means. (L1-b: Dollar Cost Averaging doesn't work without a
competitive basis equal to a standard of assured quality. Which is
where I go now to buy a named, researched PSU, tested for
certifiable.)

Purchased over-rated and beyond a PC draw and associated peripheral
capacity I'd actually impressed upon the PSU might also be within an
increasing trend of failures I was experiencing. Always with a fresh
PSU augmenting a positiveness overall to PC behavior, subsequent to a
deteriorating timeframe, between PSU changes, of continued aberrant
links to the MB hardware. The most blatant offender would be a call
to a popular CD/DVD burning software, NERO, whereupon the system would
crash and reboot. Similar proneness was evident from software to
system suspension to attempt to read optical media. (I would say I
employed over a variety of as much as six optical drives.)

Why PSUs we drawn down in time to a inservient states operability,
upon that particular MB, a new PSU would somehow regenerate, only lead
me strongly to suspect the MB for a known Eater of (perfectly good)
PSUs.

Qualifiedly, of course, within a whole world of darkness surrounding
actual electrical physics and principles of their application, I
admittedly know less about, to reason or concretely support my
dumbfounded accusations. But, to stand there, long last, and watch a
FORTRON server-grade PSU (I somewhat cherished, literally, as heavy as
a brick) give it up in a whiff of smoke. . .doesn't even begin to
explain the resentment I felt for that ASUS MB. (Nor myself for why I
pushed it so far and long as I did. I'm now running Gigabyte
solid-state capacitor-equipped MBs. FWIW, corporate Gigabyte released,
around the same timeframe of my ASUS, a damning accusation against
ASUS for knowingly using bad capacitors.)
  #35  
Old November 12th 13, 05:36 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
[email protected]
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Posts: 168
Default Can ATX PSU blow the mainboard?

On Saturday, November 9, 2013 7:31:53 PM UTC-7, wrote:

Bad capacitors do not cause destructive voltages.


They don't cause them, but they can allow them by not filtering out
voltage spikes from switching mode supplies or even spikes generated by
sudden changes in load when chips change state, sometimes causing even
excessive negative voltage spikes. All this was covered by Intel's
application notes for even when they were still producing DRAM chips.
  #37  
Old November 13th 13, 05:30 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
[email protected]
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Posts: 73
Default Can ATX PSU blow the mainboard?

On Monday, November 11, 2013 11:36:28 PM UTC-5, wrote:
They don't cause them, but they can allow them by not filtering out
voltage spikes from switching mode supplies or even spikes generated by
sudden changes in load when chips change state, sometimes causing even
excessive negative voltage spikes.


All those situations are made virtually impossible by how a PSU is designed. For example, a diode exists between different voltages so that one voltage cannot go negative in relation to another. But again, when buying PSUs that do not even provide spec numbers, then a computer assembler is 100% responsible for any resulting damage by that defective supply. An application note defines problems that must be made irrelevant by the design.

Even spikes generated by switching circuits are quashed by another and required circuit that must exist. ATX standards even define voltages that each protection circuit must trigger. And again, when is that required function missing. Only a computer assembler is responsible for knowing that the supply has these many standard functions. Supply manufacturer need not provide them IF manufacturer specifications do not say so in writing.

Two words that have no business in a PSU selection. Dollars and watts. Neither define a PSU as minimally sufficient - good enough. But can imply a defective supply - insufficient.
 




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