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overclock=high temps?



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 19th 03, 02:44 AM
Bitsbucket
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default overclock=high temps?

Header says it all, I overclocked my 2500+ Barton core to 3200+ speed by
upping the FSB to 200MHz. This results in about a 5 to 7 degree C increase
in diode temp. Should it go THAT much higher? I am using an Antec fan I
picked up at Circuit City, has a copper plate for the bottom and VERY fine
fins, fan around 2800 rpm.
BUT it dosen't matter if I use that fan or a MONSTER solid copper job with a
fan from hell, (read LOUD) runs about 7K rpm. I just can't figure out how to
get the temps down, Vcore is stock, cover is off the side, 1 incoming fan
and 3 exhaust fans. When I put my hand near the CPU I can feel the heat!
There has got to be something better, I know I'm negating the intake and
exhaust fans with the cover off, but I don't think it will be any better
with the cover on (or maybe it would?????) ambient temp is around 70 deg F
in the room, celing fan running so there is plenty of air movement in the
room...........any ideas? I just set the clock back to 2500+ and now I'm
running 45 to 47 deg C on the diode........at 3200+ it runs around 49 to 52
C (all temps are at idle, unless I run something then it jumps to the higher
numbers)
What is too hot? 60C is what I'm thinking that is why I don't like those 52
and even some 56 C when something intensive is running....
TIA
Bitsbucket


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  #2  
Old December 19th 03, 05:01 AM
dino
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Posts: n/a
Default

when I was running my Barton 2500 at those speeds, I was only averaging
around 37 degrees idle...mid 40's after gaming for a few hours...3 separate
programs confirmed this......but my setup was
A7N8X-Deluxe..2500 Barton...OCZ PC3200 EL2
Enermax 465 (8cm/9.2 cm fans)....TT Volcano 11 @ 3100 RPM,2 8cm front bay
Quad Led fans..2 rear Quads...Chenming 601AE with Purple UV Led 8cm
exhausting out(side case sucking out vid exhaust)...so if you take that into
account including my Ti4200 8x..there was 9 fans in total..sounds nuts...but
it works and is not really all that loud


  #3  
Old December 19th 03, 08:14 AM
James
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 02:44:05 GMT, "Bitsbucket"
wrote:

Header says it all, I overclocked my 2500+ Barton core to 3200+ speed by
upping the FSB to 200MHz. This results in about a 5 to 7 degree C increase
in diode temp. Should it go THAT much higher? I am using an Antec fan I
picked up at Circuit City, has a copper plate for the bottom and VERY fine
fins, fan around 2800 rpm.
BUT it dosen't matter if I use that fan or a MONSTER solid copper job with a
fan from hell, (read LOUD) runs about 7K rpm. I just can't figure out how to
get the temps down, Vcore is stock, cover is off the side, 1 incoming fan
and 3 exhaust fans. When I put my hand near the CPU I can feel the heat!
There has got to be something better, I know I'm negating the intake and
exhaust fans with the cover off, but I don't think it will be any better
with the cover on (or maybe it would?????) ambient temp is around 70 deg F
in the room, celing fan running so there is plenty of air movement in the
room...........any ideas? I just set the clock back to 2500+ and now I'm
running 45 to 47 deg C on the diode........at 3200+ it runs around 49 to 52
C (all temps are at idle, unless I run something then it jumps to the higher
numbers)
What is too hot? 60C is what I'm thinking that is why I don't like those 52
and even some 56 C when something intensive is running....
TIA
Bitsbucket


Like dino, I have a 2500+ at 3200+ speed with temps in high 30's at
idle and mid 40's at 100% load. That's a fair representation of all 5
A7N8X-D in the house except 1 is watercooled and stays at 36c to 38c
nomatter what it does. All have enermax PS which pulls air from above
cpu and exausts it. All the aircooled comps are pretty much balanced
for fan intake and exhaust and cables moved that would restrict air
movement.

With the above being said, I suspect a dead space for air movement
around your cpu. What type of case and where are the fans located.
Do you have a bottom fan on the PS.
  #4  
Old December 19th 03, 08:56 AM
Kevin D. Kissell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Bitsbucket" wrote in message s.com...
Header says it all, I overclocked my 2500+ Barton core to 3200+ speed by
upping the FSB to 200MHz. This results in about a 5 to 7 degree C increase
in diode temp. Should it go THAT much higher? I am using an Antec fan I
picked up at Circuit City, has a copper plate for the bottom and VERY fine
fins, fan around 2800 rpm.
BUT it dosen't matter if I use that fan or a MONSTER solid copper job with a
fan from hell, (read LOUD) runs about 7K rpm. I just can't figure out how to
get the temps down, Vcore is stock, cover is off the side, 1 incoming fan
and 3 exhaust fans. When I put my hand near the CPU I can feel the heat!
There has got to be something better, I know I'm negating the intake and
exhaust fans with the cover off, but I don't think it will be any better
with the cover on (or maybe it would?????) ambient temp is around 70 deg F
in the room, celing fan running so there is plenty of air movement in the
room...........any ideas? I just set the clock back to 2500+ and now I'm
running 45 to 47 deg C on the diode........at 3200+ it runs around 49 to 52
C (all temps are at idle, unless I run something then it jumps to the higher
numbers)
What is too hot? 60C is what I'm thinking that is why I don't like those 52
and even some 56 C when something intensive is running....


Processors running in the 2GHz range get hot, period. Depending on the model,
AMD rates their CPIs to 70C or 80C. Your diode won't necessarily be providing
exact data, so you want to leave a decent margin. Running at an indicated 60C
is probably not dangerous, but plainly, the cooler the better.

The power dissipated by a chip is the product of the frequency and
the voltage squared. You can't take a chip from 1.83GHz to 2.2GHz
at the same supply voltage without expecting something like a 20%
increase in peak power consumption, and a consequent increase in
heat dissipation. Because of the exponential effect of voltage changes,
reducing the core voltage by a small amount can bring about a substantial
reduction in power dissipation at the same frequency, or allow you
to overclock and dissipate the same amount of power as at normal
frequency/voltage. The catch is that reducing the voltage increases
the probability of the logic circuits latching erroneous values, causing
Very Bad Things to happen to your computer - if you're lucky,
it will crash before anything corrupt gets written to your hard drive.
In my own limited experience with overclocking, I sometimes had
to *increase* the supply voltage (and thus the heat dissipation) to get
stable operation at higher frequencies.

If you can't reduce the amount of heat generated by your CPU,
you need to look at how to get the heat out of it more efficiently.
The choice of heat sink/fan can make a huge difference, as can
the care with which you mount it and the kind/amount of thermal
paste used. Even the best thermal paste conducts heat less well
than even the worst heatsink material, *if* there is contact between
the chip case and the heatsink. Paste is necessary because neither
the chip casing nor the heatsink are perfectly flat, and you need
to fill any cavity with something that will transmit heat better than
air. There are those who sell silver and copper-based pastes which
have higher heat transfer rates than the basic silicone-based pastes,
but the metal-based pastes can form thicker layers than silicone,
and a very thin layer of silicone will conduct more heat than a thick
layer of silver stuff.


  #5  
Old December 19th 03, 06:31 PM
sdlomi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Bitsbucket" wrote in message
s.com...
Header says it all, I overclocked my 2500+ Barton core to 3200+ speed by
upping the FSB to 200MHz. This results in about a 5 to 7 degree C increase
in diode temp. Should it go THAT much higher? I am using an Antec fan I
picked up at Circuit City, has a copper plate for the bottom and VERY fine
fins, fan around 2800 rpm.
BUT it dosen't matter if I use that fan or a MONSTER solid copper job with

a
fan from hell, (read LOUD) runs about 7K rpm. I just can't figure out how

to
get the temps down, Vcore is stock, cover is off the side, 1 incoming fan
and 3 exhaust fans. When I put my hand near the CPU I can feel the heat!
There has got to be something better, I know I'm negating the intake and
exhaust fans with the cover off, but I don't think it will be any better
with the cover on (or maybe it would?????) ambient temp is around 70 deg F
in the room, celing fan running so there is plenty of air movement in the
room...........any ideas? I just set the clock back to 2500+ and now I'm
running 45 to 47 deg C on the diode........at 3200+ it runs around 49 to

52
C (all temps are at idle, unless I run something then it jumps to the

higher
numbers)
What is too hot? 60C is what I'm thinking that is why I don't like those

52
and even some 56 C when something intensive is running....
TIA
Bitsbucket


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.543 / Virus Database: 337 - Release Date: 11/21/2003



Hi, 'bb'. Personally, sounds like your problem is in the hs/fan and/or
its contact with the chip. Dunno what a Barton looks like, sizewise, but if
it's similar in size to my XP2100+, I'd guess you need a more effective
cooler. So tiny, yet so hot. Guess the smaller it is, the better hs/fan we
need, all else equal. And another thing I've found is that when I try to
troubleshoot a too-hot system--even with a known powerful-enough hs/fan--I
try to remove the hs/fan as a jeweler might: v-e-r-y carefully. Noticed
that in most instances, even with say a huge TT-Volcano & 7000 rpm's & all
that copper, etc., that when it comes up--WITHOUT SLIDING--there is a
"smear" completely void of paste. Also, there appears to be virtually no
paste AT ALL on the rectangular die(?) or on the hs-surface. From this it
appears that when the hs/fan was being attached, it was slid around almost
as if one was attempting to "clear all that muck out of the way".
So, in trying to be careful to not break the holding tabs on the ceramic
(and I have done it too), we end up wiping away the very paste from the very
spot where we wanted it most. Hence, like no paste at all. When hs/fans
are this difficult to install, we might be better off using the thermal
pads!?!? Lesson: whatever it takes, lay the hs-surface onto the cpu ONCE
and with NO sliding AT ALL. Sorry, I have no tips to ease this precision
step. But seems it is a MUST.
Can you try to borrow a STOCK hs/fan from a friend who has bought
himself a $50 replacement?. It attaches easy, can be fastened with ONE
laying down, & with NO slipping/smearing the paste. And see what your idle
temps are with no overclocking. Bet your idle temps are several degrees
cooler than with your Cct. City cooler. And if you can start w/lower
temps, even w/the climb being the same when overclocking, the final temp.
should make you happy. Still might need to get a better cooler than stock.
Feel sure it's designed for stock speeds and might not suffice for the
overclock.
Think we're gonna find that to cool adequately, using 'conventional'
sized heatsinks and fans, that it's gonna take a minimum of around 4000
rpm's to do the job. Of course, the TMD(?)-fans--the ones with magnetic
bearings which eliminate the usual dead-spot-in-the-middle--do the job at
lower rpm's. This 4000 guess applies like to my TT-CU6 or 7 or 8(?poor
memory). It needs to run ~4600 to keep mine a tad cooler than most people
desire.
Hope some of this rambling helps out. If you, or anyone has any good
tips on how to attach these things without "wiping", please report to us(or
email me by removing the obvious). It is one of the most difficult tasks I
face in 'playing' with comp's. Too often I have to re-install after
verifying temps.
Merry Christmas


  #6  
Old December 19th 03, 07:17 PM
sheer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Sorry cant hear u :-)

"dino" wrote in message
...
when I was running my Barton 2500 at those speeds, I was only averaging
around 37 degrees idle...mid 40's after gaming for a few hours...3

separate
programs confirmed this......but my setup was
A7N8X-Deluxe..2500 Barton...OCZ PC3200 EL2
Enermax 465 (8cm/9.2 cm fans)....TT Volcano 11 @ 3100 RPM,2 8cm front bay
Quad Led fans..2 rear Quads...Chenming 601AE with Purple UV Led 8cm
exhausting out(side case sucking out vid exhaust)...so if you take that

into
account including my Ti4200 8x..there was 9 fans in total..sounds

nuts...but
it works and is not really all that loud




  #7  
Old December 19th 03, 07:58 PM
dgk
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 02:44:05 GMT, "Bitsbucket"
wrote:

Header says it all, I overclocked my 2500+ Barton core to 3200+ speed by
upping the FSB to 200MHz. This results in about a 5 to 7 degree C increase
in diode temp. Should it go THAT much higher? I am using an Antec fan I
picked up at Circuit City, has a copper plate for the bottom and VERY fine
fins, fan around 2800 rpm.
BUT it dosen't matter if I use that fan or a MONSTER solid copper job with a
fan from hell, (read LOUD) runs about 7K rpm. I just can't figure out how to
get the temps down, Vcore is stock, cover is off the side, 1 incoming fan
and 3 exhaust fans. When I put my hand near the CPU I can feel the heat!
There has got to be something better, I know I'm negating the intake and
exhaust fans with the cover off, but I don't think it will be any better
with the cover on (or maybe it would?????) ambient temp is around 70 deg F
in the room, celing fan running so there is plenty of air movement in the
room...........any ideas? I just set the clock back to 2500+ and now I'm
running 45 to 47 deg C on the diode........at 3200+ it runs around 49 to 52
C (all temps are at idle, unless I run something then it jumps to the higher
numbers)
What is too hot? 60C is what I'm thinking that is why I don't like those 52
and even some 56 C when something intensive is running....
TIA
Bitsbucket


A THIN layer of Artic Silver (we're up to 5 I think) or any good
transfer compound would likely help. People tend to put on too much;
it spreads out under all that pressure. You only need enough to fill
in the gaps, not replace metal to metal contact. I don't know that the
heatsink you got is any better than a standard one.

By the way, when the case cover goes back on, the folks at
overclockers.com recommend positive pressure in the case, so more fans
in, less out, or at least keep it even. First off, with negative
pressure (3 out 1 in), you aren't going to get much flowing though the
PSU and it will get hot and likely screw up.
  #8  
Old December 20th 03, 02:44 AM
Tocapet
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Make sure you don't have the heat sink on backwards!!
It has been known to happen. If you look at the bottom, it will have a
"step" that should be positioned over the part of the Zif socket where it
says "Socket etc." And use some good quality heat sink grease on the die of
the CPU.

Tocapet

"Bitsbucket" wrote in message
s.com...
Header says it all, I overclocked my 2500+ Barton core to 3200+ speed by
upping the FSB to 200MHz. This results in about a 5 to 7 degree C increase
in diode temp. Should it go THAT much higher? I am using an Antec fan I
picked up at Circuit City, has a copper plate for the bottom and VERY fine
fins, fan around 2800 rpm.
BUT it dosen't matter if I use that fan or a MONSTER solid copper job with

a
fan from hell, (read LOUD) runs about 7K rpm. I just can't figure out how

to
get the temps down, Vcore is stock, cover is off the side, 1 incoming fan
and 3 exhaust fans. When I put my hand near the CPU I can feel the heat!
There has got to be something better, I know I'm negating the intake and
exhaust fans with the cover off, but I don't think it will be any better
with the cover on (or maybe it would?????) ambient temp is around 70 deg F
in the room, celing fan running so there is plenty of air movement in the
room...........any ideas? I just set the clock back to 2500+ and now I'm
running 45 to 47 deg C on the diode........at 3200+ it runs around 49 to

52
C (all temps are at idle, unless I run something then it jumps to the

higher
numbers)
What is too hot? 60C is what I'm thinking that is why I don't like those

52
and even some 56 C when something intensive is running....
TIA
Bitsbucket


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.543 / Virus Database: 337 - Release Date: 11/21/2003





  #9  
Old December 21st 03, 05:40 PM
bitsbucket
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I will put my fans in a different config. to create postitive pressure,
however at this point I have no cover on the case so it's a moot point. I
would eventually like to have my cover back on so I will change the
config...
thanks for the advise,
Bitsbucket



"dgk" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 02:44:05 GMT, "Bitsbucket"
wrote:

Header says it all, I overclocked my 2500+ Barton core to 3200+ speed by
upping the FSB to 200MHz. This results in about a 5 to 7 degree C

increase
in diode temp. Should it go THAT much higher? I am using an Antec fan I
picked up at Circuit City, has a copper plate for the bottom and VERY

fine
fins, fan around 2800 rpm.
BUT it dosen't matter if I use that fan or a MONSTER solid copper job

with a
fan from hell, (read LOUD) runs about 7K rpm. I just can't figure out how

to
get the temps down, Vcore is stock, cover is off the side, 1 incoming fan
and 3 exhaust fans. When I put my hand near the CPU I can feel the heat!
There has got to be something better, I know I'm negating the intake and
exhaust fans with the cover off, but I don't think it will be any better
with the cover on (or maybe it would?????) ambient temp is around 70 deg

F
in the room, celing fan running so there is plenty of air movement in the
room...........any ideas? I just set the clock back to 2500+ and now I'm
running 45 to 47 deg C on the diode........at 3200+ it runs around 49 to

52
C (all temps are at idle, unless I run something then it jumps to the

higher
numbers)
What is too hot? 60C is what I'm thinking that is why I don't like those

52
and even some 56 C when something intensive is running....
TIA
Bitsbucket


A THIN layer of Artic Silver (we're up to 5 I think) or any good
transfer compound would likely help. People tend to put on too much;
it spreads out under all that pressure. You only need enough to fill
in the gaps, not replace metal to metal contact. I don't know that the
heatsink you got is any better than a standard one.

By the way, when the case cover goes back on, the folks at
overclockers.com recommend positive pressure in the case, so more fans
in, less out, or at least keep it even. First off, with negative
pressure (3 out 1 in), you aren't going to get much flowing though the
PSU and it will get hot and likely screw up.



  #10  
Old December 21st 03, 05:48 PM
bitsbucket
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

First, Thanks for all the help!
I have tried a massive solid copper sink with a 7K rpm fan, a stock fan, and
the one I have now. I believe that Kevin that posted an answer to my
dilemma, hit the nail on the head, that is the best description of power
usage/heat dissipation I have read. I will, use some of his information to
solve my problems, I am going to use a 7Krpm fan, with an adjustable
rheostat to keep noise down when I'm not under a heavy load, and combine
that fan with a heat sink that has better thermal dissipation.
Thanks to all for the help,
Bitsbucket
"sdlomi" wrote in message
...

"Bitsbucket" wrote in message
s.com...
Header says it all, I overclocked my 2500+ Barton core to 3200+ speed by
upping the FSB to 200MHz. This results in about a 5 to 7 degree C

increase
in diode temp. Should it go THAT much higher? I am using an Antec fan I
picked up at Circuit City, has a copper plate for the bottom and VERY

fine
fins, fan around 2800 rpm.
BUT it dosen't matter if I use that fan or a MONSTER solid copper job

with
a
fan from hell, (read LOUD) runs about 7K rpm. I just can't figure out

how
to
get the temps down, Vcore is stock, cover is off the side, 1 incoming

fan
and 3 exhaust fans. When I put my hand near the CPU I can feel the heat!
There has got to be something better, I know I'm negating the intake and
exhaust fans with the cover off, but I don't think it will be any better
with the cover on (or maybe it would?????) ambient temp is around 70 deg

F
in the room, celing fan running so there is plenty of air movement in

the
room...........any ideas? I just set the clock back to 2500+ and now I'm
running 45 to 47 deg C on the diode........at 3200+ it runs around 49 to

52
C (all temps are at idle, unless I run something then it jumps to the

higher
numbers)
What is too hot? 60C is what I'm thinking that is why I don't like those

52
and even some 56 C when something intensive is running....
TIA
Bitsbucket


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.543 / Virus Database: 337 - Release Date: 11/21/2003



Hi, 'bb'. Personally, sounds like your problem is in the hs/fan

and/or
its contact with the chip. Dunno what a Barton looks like, sizewise, but

if
it's similar in size to my XP2100+, I'd guess you need a more effective
cooler. So tiny, yet so hot. Guess the smaller it is, the better hs/fan

we
need, all else equal. And another thing I've found is that when I try to
troubleshoot a too-hot system--even with a known powerful-enough hs/fan--I
try to remove the hs/fan as a jeweler might: v-e-r-y carefully. Noticed
that in most instances, even with say a huge TT-Volcano & 7000 rpm's & all
that copper, etc., that when it comes up--WITHOUT SLIDING--there is a
"smear" completely void of paste. Also, there appears to be virtually no
paste AT ALL on the rectangular die(?) or on the hs-surface. From this it
appears that when the hs/fan was being attached, it was slid around almost
as if one was attempting to "clear all that muck out of the way".
So, in trying to be careful to not break the holding tabs on the

ceramic
(and I have done it too), we end up wiping away the very paste from the

very
spot where we wanted it most. Hence, like no paste at all. When hs/fans
are this difficult to install, we might be better off using the thermal
pads!?!? Lesson: whatever it takes, lay the hs-surface onto the cpu ONCE
and with NO sliding AT ALL. Sorry, I have no tips to ease this precision
step. But seems it is a MUST.
Can you try to borrow a STOCK hs/fan from a friend who has bought
himself a $50 replacement?. It attaches easy, can be fastened with ONE
laying down, & with NO slipping/smearing the paste. And see what your

idle
temps are with no overclocking. Bet your idle temps are several degrees
cooler than with your Cct. City cooler. And if you can start w/lower
temps, even w/the climb being the same when overclocking, the final temp.
should make you happy. Still might need to get a better cooler than

stock.
Feel sure it's designed for stock speeds and might not suffice for the
overclock.
Think we're gonna find that to cool adequately, using 'conventional'
sized heatsinks and fans, that it's gonna take a minimum of around 4000
rpm's to do the job. Of course, the TMD(?)-fans--the ones with magnetic
bearings which eliminate the usual dead-spot-in-the-middle--do the job at
lower rpm's. This 4000 guess applies like to my TT-CU6 or 7 or 8(?poor
memory). It needs to run ~4600 to keep mine a tad cooler than most people
desire.
Hope some of this rambling helps out. If you, or anyone has any good
tips on how to attach these things without "wiping", please report to

us(or
email me by removing the obvious). It is one of the most difficult tasks

I
face in 'playing' with comp's. Too often I have to re-install after
verifying temps.
Merry Christmas




 




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