Overheating please help

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:42:46 GMT, "Ed Medlin" wrote:


"johns" wrote in message
...
Is that InWin a steel case? If they are still making steel
cases, there is no way to cool them enough to put a
newer cpu in them. You need an aluminum case with
the big fan in back.

johns


It shouldn't matter at all what the case is made of. The main thing is to
get good airflow around the CPU/HSF. The case could be made of lead or
cardboard as far as that goes. Cool air in and hot air out is the ticket.


Ed


Honestly everything seems like it is efficient and setup well. I will
tie away as many more cables as I can but they are not really
obstructing the airflow as far as I can tell.

I am thinking about also manually mounting a server fan inside
pointing right at the CPU toward the back so it will have a really
powerful push. I have some server fans that I soldered molex
connectors to, they work really well, I just have to find a place to
mount it.




---Atreju---

I modded a case once and cut a hole in the top before that became standard.

"Atreju" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:42:46 GMT, "Ed Medlin" wrote:


"johns" wrote in message
...
Is that InWin a steel case? If they are still making steel
cases, there is no way to cool them enough to put a
newer cpu in them. You need an aluminum case with
the big fan in back.

johns


It shouldn't matter at all what the case is made of. The main thing is to
get good airflow around the CPU/HSF. The case could be made of lead or
cardboard as far as that goes. Cool air in and hot air out is the ticket.


Ed


Honestly everything seems like it is efficient and setup well. I will
tie away as many more cables as I can but they are not really
obstructing the airflow as far as I can tell.

I am thinking about also manually mounting a server fan inside
pointing right at the CPU toward the back so it will have a really
powerful push. I have some server fans that I soldered molex
connectors to, they work really well, I just have to find a place to
mount it.




---Atreju---

On Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:04:05 -0400, "BigJim"
wrote:

I modded a case once and cut a hole in the top before that became standard.

SNIP

That's kind of what I had in mind also - I could cut a circular hole
on top just before the PSU and have an upward-blowing fan in there. I
believe this is where a lot of heat is getting trapped. Plus, heat
rises, naturally, so this will alleviate some of the heat
concentration on the underside of the top.

Thanks.


---Atreju---

There's a good reason the newer case designs are aluminum. Steel is
notorious for holding and not conducting or radiating heat away. I have
probably
100 of the InWin cases in my labs ... all steel .. and
I absolutely cannot cool an AMD 64 cpu in one of
those cases ... and I like the InWin case for P4s up
to the 2.4. Beyond that, no way. The ambient is just
too high in the steel case. Also, those cases won't take
the large rear fan that is needed.

johns

johns wrote:

There's a good reason the newer case designs are aluminum. Steel is
notorious for holding and not conducting or radiating heat away. I have
probably

It doesn't matter as the heat is taken out by convection, not conduction or
radiation.

100 of the InWin cases in my labs ... all steel .. and
I absolutely cannot cool an AMD 64 cpu in one of
those cases ... and I like the InWin case for P4s up
to the 2.4. Beyond that, no way. The ambient is just
too high in the steel case.


Also, those cases won't take
the large rear fan that is needed.

*That* is the reason: Insufficient air flow.


johns

"David Maynard" wrote in message
...
johns wrote:

There's a good reason the newer case designs are aluminum. Steel is
notorious for holding and not conducting or radiating heat away. I have
probably

It doesn't matter as the heat is taken out by convection, not conduction
or radiation.

100 of the InWin cases in my labs ... all steel .. and
I absolutely cannot cool an AMD 64 cpu in one of
those cases ... and I like the InWin case for P4s up
to the 2.4. Beyond that, no way. The ambient is just
too high in the steel case.


Also, those cases won't take
the large rear fan that is needed.

*That* is the reason: Insufficient air flow.

Thank you David........:-) I have an old P3 system in a 1/4" homemade wooden
case.......wander how much heat is radiated out from that........? With me,
good airflow takes some experimentation. This new S775 build has been a bit
challenging. The board layout is quite a bit different from my P4b system. I
found that by removing the top fan I decreased CPU in-die temps by 5-6c. The
only thing I can think of is that it was exhausting some of the incoming air
from the front fans on my Lian Li PC60 before getting to the CPU fan
area......I dunno. I left the hole intact just for some passive heat
removal, but no fan. The rear fan now has much warmer air blowing out too.
These higher temps are just not what I am used to from previous chips. I am
seeing 10-12c hotter idle temps and temps in the high 50s to low 60s max. It
is very stable and nothing changes with even a 20% overclock to 3.6mhz from
3.0. I haven't tried any higher because of the temperature thing, but if I
can get it down a bit I may try a bit more. The CPU is the I-630 2meg L2
cache. MB is Asus P5GDC (I-915). If you have any ideas, throw em at me
David.....

Ed

Ed Medlin wrote:

"David Maynard" wrote in message
...

johns wrote:


There's a good reason the newer case designs are aluminum. Steel is
notorious for holding and not conducting or radiating heat away. I have
probably

It doesn't matter as the heat is taken out by convection, not conduction
or radiation.


100 of the InWin cases in my labs ... all steel .. and
I absolutely cannot cool an AMD 64 cpu in one of
those cases ... and I like the InWin case for P4s up
to the 2.4. Beyond that, no way. The ambient is just
too high in the steel case.


Also, those cases won't take
the large rear fan that is needed.

*That* is the reason: Insufficient air flow.


Thank you David........:-) I have an old P3 system in a 1/4" homemade wooden
case.......wander how much heat is radiated out from that........? With me,
good airflow takes some experimentation. This new S775 build has been a bit
challenging. The board layout is quite a bit different from my P4b system. I
found that by removing the top fan I decreased CPU in-die temps by 5-6c. The
only thing I can think of is that it was exhausting some of the incoming air
from the front fans on my Lian Li PC60 before getting to the CPU fan
area......I dunno.

I can't see it, of course, but your supposition is sound and short
circuiting case air flow is a common problem. A kind of tunnel effect. Got
a cool wind corridor running from intake to exhaust bypassing the hot
elements in dead zones.


I left the hole intact just for some passive heat
removal, but no fan.

That can be a problem too allowing the rear exhaust to pull from the top
hole rather than across the case.

The rear fan now has much warmer air blowing out too.
These higher temps are just not what I am used to from previous chips. I am
seeing 10-12c hotter idle temps and temps in the high 50s to low 60s max.

Are you comparing on-die thermal diode temps to under socket thermistor, or
processor case, temps? Because on-die temps will always be higher than any
external reading due to the internal die to case thermal resistance.

It
is very stable and nothing changes with even a 20% overclock to 3.6mhz from
3.0. I haven't tried any higher because of the temperature thing, but if I
can get it down a bit I may try a bit more. The CPU is the I-630 2meg L2
cache. MB is Asus P5GDC (I-915). If you have any ideas, throw em at me
David.....

What size is the rear fan? And have you measured case temp around the
processor heatsink? Intel specs call for the heatsink fan inlet temp to be
38C, or less.

Just generically speaking, I'd want a large rear exhaust fan right at the
CPU, an open front inlet (meaning not one of those restrictive stamped
grill disasters) and no other gaping holes to short circuit the cross case
ventilation.


Ed

"David Maynard" wrote in message
...
Ed Medlin wrote:

"David Maynard" wrote in message
...

johns wrote:


There's a good reason the newer case designs are aluminum. Steel is
notorious for holding and not conducting or radiating heat away. I have
probably

It doesn't matter as the heat is taken out by convection, not conduction
or radiation.


100 of the InWin cases in my labs ... all steel .. and
I absolutely cannot cool an AMD 64 cpu in one of
those cases ... and I like the InWin case for P4s up
to the 2.4. Beyond that, no way. The ambient is just
too high in the steel case.


Also, those cases won't take
the large rear fan that is needed.

*That* is the reason: Insufficient air flow.


Thank you David........:-) I have an old P3 system in a 1/4" homemade
wooden case.......wander how much heat is radiated out from that........?
With me, good airflow takes some experimentation. This new S775 build has
been a bit challenging. The board layout is quite a bit different from my
P4b system. I found that by removing the top fan I decreased CPU in-die
temps by 5-6c. The only thing I can think of is that it was exhausting
some of the incoming air from the front fans on my Lian Li PC60 before
getting to the CPU fan area......I dunno.

I can't see it, of course, but your supposition is sound and short
circuiting case air flow is a common problem. A kind of tunnel effect. Got
a cool wind corridor running from intake to exhaust bypassing the hot
elements in dead zones.


I left the hole intact just for some passive heat removal, but no fan.

That can be a problem too allowing the rear exhaust to pull from the top
hole rather than across the case.

The rear fan now has much warmer air blowing out too. These higher temps
are just not what I am used to from previous chips. I am seeing 10-12c
hotter idle temps and temps in the high 50s to low 60s max.

Are you comparing on-die thermal diode temps to under socket thermistor,
or processor case, temps? Because on-die temps will always be higher than
any external reading due to the internal die to case thermal resistance.

It is very stable and nothing changes with even a 20% overclock to 3.6mhz
from 3.0. I haven't tried any higher because of the temperature thing,
but if I can get it down a bit I may try a bit more. The CPU is the I-630
2meg L2 cache. MB is Asus P5GDC (I-915). If you have any ideas, throw em
at me David.....

What size is the rear fan? And have you measured case temp around the
processor heatsink? Intel specs call for the heatsink fan inlet temp to be
38C, or less.

Yes. I have a thermistor that I use to monitor case temps on new builds
and it is at 32c.
The rear fan is an 80mm and I took off the guard so it is wide open now.
After running some tests with the top hole covered from the inside with duct
tape, I am seeing much better idle temps and right now while copying an IDE
drive to my SATA raid array (big drive and lots of stuff) I am only seeing
43-44c for processor temps. I think I have it where I feel much better with
the temps. I can't see how the top hole could make that much difference
since the case temps are the same as always, unless it was causing a "dead
air" area around the HSF unit. Thanks much for the suggestions. And btw, the
CPU temps are on-die and read from a pin ("contact" on these since the
processor has no pins) on the processor.


Ed

Ed Medlin wrote:

"David Maynard" wrote in message
...

Ed Medlin wrote:


"David Maynard" wrote in message
...


johns wrote:



There's a good reason the newer case designs are aluminum. Steel is
notorious for holding and not conducting or radiating heat away. I have
probably

It doesn't matter as the heat is taken out by convection, not conduction
or radiation.



100 of the InWin cases in my labs ... all steel .. and
I absolutely cannot cool an AMD 64 cpu in one of
those cases ... and I like the InWin case for P4s up
to the 2.4. Beyond that, no way. The ambient is just
too high in the steel case.


Also, those cases won't take
the large rear fan that is needed.

*That* is the reason: Insufficient air flow.


Thank you David........:-) I have an old P3 system in a 1/4" homemade
wooden case.......wander how much heat is radiated out from that........?
With me, good airflow takes some experimentation. This new S775 build has
been a bit challenging. The board layout is quite a bit different from my
P4b system. I found that by removing the top fan I decreased CPU in-die
temps by 5-6c. The only thing I can think of is that it was exhausting
some of the incoming air from the front fans on my Lian Li PC60 before
getting to the CPU fan area......I dunno.

I can't see it, of course, but your supposition is sound and short
circuiting case air flow is a common problem. A kind of tunnel effect. Got
a cool wind corridor running from intake to exhaust bypassing the hot
elements in dead zones.



I left the hole intact just for some passive heat removal, but no fan.

That can be a problem too allowing the rear exhaust to pull from the top
hole rather than across the case.


The rear fan now has much warmer air blowing out too. These higher temps
are just not what I am used to from previous chips. I am seeing 10-12c
hotter idle temps and temps in the high 50s to low 60s max.

Are you comparing on-die thermal diode temps to under socket thermistor,
or processor case, temps? Because on-die temps will always be higher than
any external reading due to the internal die to case thermal resistance.


It is very stable and nothing changes with even a 20% overclock to 3.6mhz
from 3.0. I haven't tried any higher because of the temperature thing,
but if I can get it down a bit I may try a bit more. The CPU is the I-630
2meg L2 cache. MB is Asus P5GDC (I-915). If you have any ideas, throw em
at me David.....

What size is the rear fan? And have you measured case temp around the
processor heatsink? Intel specs call for the heatsink fan inlet temp to be
38C, or less.


Yes. I have a thermistor that I use to monitor case temps on new builds
and it is at 32c.
The rear fan is an 80mm and I took off the guard so it is wide open now.

That's big enough if running toward the higher RPMs. You just can't run
them as quiet as the larger ones because you need the RPMs to get the airflow.

After running some tests with the top hole covered from the inside with duct
tape, I am seeing much better idle temps and right now while copying an IDE
drive to my SATA raid array (big drive and lots of stuff) I am only seeing
43-44c for processor temps. I think I have it where I feel much better with
the temps.

Yeah, that's looks good.

I can't see how the top hole could make that much difference
since the case temps are the same as always,

Depends on where the case temp sensor point is.

People tend to put them smack dab in the middle of a nice large open area
figuring 'dead center' of the case is good 'case temp' but that's not where
potential heat problems will be. Really need to take multiple readings at
all the places where temp matters.

unless it was causing a "dead
air" area around the HSF unit.

Could be. I can't tell without a visual but I'd suggest it probably
eliminated most of the PSU fan's usefulness to case cooling, and the rear
fan to some degree as well, by letting it pull from the blow hole rather
than the case interior and the front vent.

Thanks much for the suggestions. And btw, the
CPU temps are on-die and read from a pin ("contact" on these since the
processor has no pins) on the processor.


Ed

I have an intel celeron 2.5g overclocked to 2.67g sitting inside of a
steel case with a plastic shell. With only three fans (one being the
psu fan) my cpu rarely tops 100 degrees F. It's all in the air flow.

P.S. One of the holes I bored in the side to pull air out of the
compartment. The psu blows out a fan in front blows in.

DRG




David Maynard wrote:
Ed Medlin wrote:

"David Maynard" wrote in message
...

Ed Medlin wrote:


"David Maynard" wrote in message
...


johns wrote:



There's a good reason the newer case designs are aluminum. Steel
is notorious for holding and not conducting or radiating heat
away. I have probably


It doesn't matter as the heat is taken out by convection, not
conduction or radiation.



100 of the InWin cases in my labs ... all steel .. and
I absolutely cannot cool an AMD 64 cpu in one of
those cases ... and I like the InWin case for P4s up
to the 2.4. Beyond that, no way. The ambient is just
too high in the steel case.



Also, those cases won't take
the large rear fan that is needed.


*That* is the reason: Insufficient air flow.



Thank you David........:-) I have an old P3 system in a 1/4"
homemade wooden case.......wander how much heat is radiated out from
that........? With me, good airflow takes some experimentation. This
new S775 build has been a bit challenging. The board layout is quite
a bit different from my P4b system. I found that by removing the top
fan I decreased CPU in-die temps by 5-6c. The only thing I can think
of is that it was exhausting some of the incoming air from the front
fans on my Lian Li PC60 before getting to the CPU fan area......I
dunno.


I can't see it, of course, but your supposition is sound and short
circuiting case air flow is a common problem. A kind of tunnel
effect. Got a cool wind corridor running from intake to exhaust
bypassing the hot elements in dead zones.



I left the hole intact just for some passive heat removal, but no fan.


That can be a problem too allowing the rear exhaust to pull from the
top hole rather than across the case.


The rear fan now has much warmer air blowing out too. These higher
temps are just not what I am used to from previous chips. I am
seeing 10-12c hotter idle temps and temps in the high 50s to low 60s
max.


Are you comparing on-die thermal diode temps to under socket
thermistor, or processor case, temps? Because on-die temps will
always be higher than any external reading due to the internal die to
case thermal resistance.


It is very stable and nothing changes with even a 20% overclock to
3.6mhz from 3.0. I haven't tried any higher because of the
temperature thing, but if I can get it down a bit I may try a bit
more. The CPU is the I-630 2meg L2 cache. MB is Asus P5GDC (I-915).
If you have any ideas, throw em at me David.....


What size is the rear fan? And have you measured case temp around the
processor heatsink? Intel specs call for the heatsink fan inlet temp
to be 38C, or less.



Yes. I have a thermistor that I use to monitor case temps on new
builds and it is at 32c.
The rear fan is an 80mm and I took off the guard so it is wide
open now.


That's big enough if running toward the higher RPMs. You just can't run
them as quiet as the larger ones because you need the RPMs to get the
airflow.

After running some tests with the top hole covered from the inside
with duct tape, I am seeing much better idle temps and right now while
copying an IDE drive to my SATA raid array (big drive and lots of
stuff) I am only seeing 43-44c for processor temps. I think I have it
where I feel much better with the temps.


Yeah, that's looks good.

I can't see how the top hole could make that much difference since the
case temps are the same as always,


Depends on where the case temp sensor point is.

People tend to put them smack dab in the middle of a nice large open
area figuring 'dead center' of the case is good 'case temp' but that's
not where potential heat problems will be. Really need to take multiple
readings at all the places where temp matters.

unless it was causing a "dead air" area around the HSF unit.


Could be. I can't tell without a visual but I'd suggest it probably
eliminated most of the PSU fan's usefulness to case cooling, and the
rear fan to some degree as well, by letting it pull from the blow hole
rather than the case interior and the front vent.

Thanks much for the suggestions. And btw, the CPU temps are on-die and
read from a pin ("contact" on these since the processor has no pins)
on the processor.


Ed