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Problems rebuilding system



 
 
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  #11  
Old December 14th 19, 03:25 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Norm Why[_2_]
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Posts: 114
Default Problems rebuilding system

[snippage]

The GA-EP45-DR3LR has dual BIOS, two tiny surface mount chips near the
battery and CL_BIOS pins. It is designed for safe upgrade, with networked OS
software. Gigabyte gives recommendations on what software to use. BIOS is
V1.0 It is an unused MOBO, never sold. It came in a brown cardboard box with
the IO shield attached with a plastic strap. It is a virgin. It had been in
storage so long the battery was dead. It has nice features, like dual
channel memory. At one time, high end RAM was advertised as 'dual channel;.
It is not a property of RAM but of the MOBO. With dual channel memory and a
3 GHz 4-core Q9650 with 12MB cache, why worry? The advantages of 8-core may
be exaggerated. A GTX 970 GPU gives it more horsepower. Its contribution
showed up in "Task Manager".

What I am saying is that Big Bucks Boyz may get better economy with an old
system, by trading labor for capital.



  #12  
Old December 14th 19, 03:31 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Norm Why[_2_]
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Posts: 114
Default Problems rebuilding system


From manual, here are the beep codes:

Q: What do the beeps emitted during the POST mean?
A: The following Award BIOS beep code descriptions may help you identify
possible computer problems.
(For reference only.)
1 short: System boots successfully
2 short: CMOS setting error
1 long, 1 short: Memory or motherboard error
1 long, 2 short: Monitor or graphics card error
1 long, 3 short: Keyboard error
1 long, 9 short: BIOS ROM error
Continuous long beeps: Graphics card not inserted properly
Continuous short beeps: Power error

Since I have not heard any beeps when the table says I should, that would
imply a problem with the front panel connecter. I'll be back after Xmas
duties.


It requires a working motherboard+CPU combo.
Then you'll get beep codes on SPKR.

SPKR is not polarized. Just make sure the span
is correct for the connector (some OEM cases might
have a 1x2 connector, while some retail motherboards
use a 1x4 pattern). You can use connector strips and
lift the tab on each, to shift wires within shells
and make the correct connector for the job.

The SPKR body should be electrically isolated from
the two wire leads. The wire leads go to the speaker
coil, and the coil moves in and out with the cone.
Even so, a few computer cases here use plastic
mounts for SPKR.

The front panel header is reasonably bulletproof.

RESET and POWER are SPST momentary contact switches, normally open.
You push the button, and the switch closes for a moment.

The LEDs are polarized as you say. The LED is rated
for 5V PIV (Peak Inverse Volts) so cannot be harmed
by reversing the leads. Each driving circuit has
a series resistor to limit current flow. If they don't
light, you reverse the 1x2 connector and try again.

Normally the spacing and span of various signal
assignments on the Front Panel connector, avoids
the possibility of shorting two power pins placed
next to one another. If there is a SPKR section
of a Front Panel connector, the "hot" end should
not be near a GND pin. The ones I've looked at,
generally have fairly safe signal assignments.
While there are connectors on a computer that get
crushed and you cannot visually check them,
the Front Panel connector isn't one of the ones
where people habitually do bad things. I don't
think I've had any reports of anyone managing to
start a fire using nothing but a Front Panel header
problem :-) (If you pinch the "hot" wire of SPKR
between the computer case door and the computer
case, which is GND, then the wire will get smoked.
And that has happened. Normally those wires aren't
sitting near the door.)

You can get a "no beep" condition, by using a
reset button crushed in the ON position. Usually
OEM computer cases are the ones with sufficiently
cheesy buttons on the front of the computer, to
make incidents like this possible. I have one
computer here, where the buttons are such,
I know that some day that's how those buttons
will fail. The buttons speak of cheapness.

Paul


Thanks Paul, I'll look into it.


  #13  
Old December 14th 19, 08:17 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Norm Why[_2_]
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Posts: 114
Default Problems rebuilding system

[snippage]
You can get a "no beep" condition, by using a
reset button crushed in the ON position. Usually
OEM computer cases are the ones with sufficiently
cheesy buttons on the front of the computer, to
make incidents like this possible. I have one
computer here, where the buttons are such,
I know that some day that's how those buttons
will fail. The buttons speak of cheapness.

Paul


Paul, I may have found the problem, no beep. On the one hand the
GA-EP45-DS3L provides a 10 pin keyed audio header while the MX330-X provides
a compatible plug. The mike and line-out go to connectors on the IO shield.
I have headphone-mike connected but that is not where the beep goes.
GA-EP45-DS3L provides a 20 pin front panel header. I have insured that
polarity of POWER, RESET and POWER LED are correct. I do not yet know about
HDD Activity LED. But when I look closely at GA-EP45-DS3L manual, polarized
Speaker Leads are connected to pins 20 and 14. I suppose that is a good
idea. However, the MX330-X front panel header ribbon cable does not provide
these, none that I see. I guess I need to send an email to Cougar customer
support. Odd, cannot see this problem flagged in any review. Maybe I need
to dig into the MX330-X with a flashlight and magnifying glass? Remember the
pin connectors are real tiny. The MX330-X manual is one page, Mickey Mouse.
I need better documentation.

The Power Switch is confirmed.
The Power LED is confirmed.
The Reset Switch is confirmed.

Maybe the HDD Activity LED is in fact polarized Speaker Leads. These pins
are so tiny it is hard to tell. But it is only these that need closer
inspection.



  #14  
Old December 14th 19, 08:41 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Norm Why[_2_]
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Posts: 114
Default Problems rebuilding system

[snippage]

The Power Switch is confirmed.
The Power LED is confirmed.
The Reset Switch is confirmed.

Maybe the HDD Activity LED is in fact polarized Speaker Leads. These pins
are so tiny it is hard to tell. But it is only these that need closer
inspection.


This is a URL to an image of the MX330-X front panel connector:
"How-to-connect-case-cables-system-panel."
https://assets.rockpapershotgun.com/...stem-panel.jpg

Note there is no HDD Activity LED between pins 1, 2. They belong elsewhere.
On the GA-EP45-DS3L they belong on pins 20, 14. In this image they appear
on pins 18, 14.

Now to sleep.


  #15  
Old December 14th 19, 05:25 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Norm Why[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 114
Default Problems rebuilding system

The Power Switch is confirmed.
The Power LED is confirmed.
The Reset Switch is confirmed.

Maybe the HDD Activity LED is in fact polarized Speaker Leads. These pins
are so tiny it is hard to tell. But it is only these that need closer
inspection.


This is a URL to an image of the MX330-X front panel connector:
"How-to-connect-case-cables-system-panel."
https://assets.rockpapershotgun.com/...stem-panel.jpg

Note there is no HDD Activity LED between pins 1, 2. They belong
elsewhere. On the GA-EP45-DS3L they belong on pins 20, 14. In this image
they appear on pins 18, 14.

Now to sleep.


[correction, even and odd # pins are on opposite sides of header]

Houston, we have a problem. HDD Activity LED pins 1, 3 and MX330-X
connection is fused and clearly marked HDD Activity LED & polarity. While
Power LED MX330-X connectors are not fused, polarity marked and might be a
candidate to connect to pins 20, 14, they are confirmed as Power LED. When
ON the Power LED glows steady and does not pulse as expected for front-panel
speaker beep. Maybe an email to Cougar is needed. Strange, this problem was
not flagged in reviews.


  #16  
Old December 14th 19, 07:25 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware
John McGaw
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Posts: 732
Default Problems rebuilding system

On 12/13/2019 6:11 PM, Paul wrote:
You can get a "no beep" condition, by using a
reset button crushed in the ON position. Usually
OEM computer cases are the ones with sufficiently
cheesy buttons on the front of the computer, to
make incidents like this possible. I have one
computer here, where the buttons are such,
I know that some day that's how those buttons
will fail. The buttons speak of cheapness.


Anything mechanical is always suspect. I've been using a couple of
identical Antec cases, not normally noted for being cheap, for computers
now residing in the basement "computer room". Not too long after purchase
(but outside any hope of warranty) the power switch failed on one of them
and drove me crazy for a while. Rather than give up I swapped the
connections between "power" and "reset" on the MB and it has worked fine
for years now. Only real problem is that I can almost never remember which
of the cases has the swapped switches. If I had any sense I'd apply some
masking tape over the dead switch to remind me...
  #17  
Old December 14th 19, 08:14 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Paul[_28_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,467
Default Problems rebuilding system

Norm Why wrote:
[snippage]
You can get a "no beep" condition, by using a
reset button crushed in the ON position. Usually
OEM computer cases are the ones with sufficiently
cheesy buttons on the front of the computer, to
make incidents like this possible. I have one
computer here, where the buttons are such,
I know that some day that's how those buttons
will fail. The buttons speak of cheapness.

Paul


Paul, I may have found the problem, no beep. On the one hand the
GA-EP45-DS3L provides a 10 pin keyed audio header while the MX330-X provides
a compatible plug. The mike and line-out go to connectors on the IO shield.
I have headphone-mike connected but that is not where the beep goes.
GA-EP45-DS3L provides a 20 pin front panel header. I have insured that
polarity of POWER, RESET and POWER LED are correct. I do not yet know about
HDD Activity LED. But when I look closely at GA-EP45-DS3L manual, polarized
Speaker Leads are connected to pins 20 and 14. I suppose that is a good
idea. However, the MX330-X front panel header ribbon cable does not provide
these, none that I see. I guess I need to send an email to Cougar customer
support. Odd, cannot see this problem flagged in any review. Maybe I need
to dig into the MX330-X with a flashlight and magnifying glass? Remember the
pin connectors are real tiny. The MX330-X manual is one page, Mickey Mouse.
I need better documentation.

The Power Switch is confirmed.
The Power LED is confirmed.
The Reset Switch is confirmed.

Maybe the HDD Activity LED is in fact polarized Speaker Leads. These pins
are so tiny it is hard to tell. But it is only these that need closer
inspection.


ga-ep45-ds3l(r)_e.pdf

Page 27

FPANEL PWR PWR
LED Switch SPKR
+ - + - + -

X X X X X - - X
X X X X X

+ - - +
HDD RST
LED Switch

Polarity of RST Switch, PWR Switch, SPKR, does not matter.
All assemblies are electrically floating.

PWR LED and HDD LED can be reversed if they refuse to light.

The nine pin section does not need to be
completely wired up while testing. The two
LED indicators are superfluous, until final
build time. Just the PWR switch can be connected
for the style of testing to come.

What is not optional at this point, is the SPKR connection.
You need the SPKR connection to verify that the "missing RAM"
and "missing video" functions work properly, which tells
you that the motherboard/CPU is working, and that when
you plug the RAM in, the RAM is detected.

Once you have completed that phase of testing (successfully),
then you can go back to solving the video card issue,
whatever it is. Since the chipset is P45, I can't see a
reason for the motherboard to be screwing this up. You
should have good luck with PCI Express compatibility
with such a motherboard.

If the card has too much onboard GPU RAM, then it's possible
the OS won't start (address space issue). When doing
the "RAM detected, video not detected" test, you'll be
using a single stick of RAM. Use one of your
*lower capacity* sticks. The smallest I have is
probably 1GB for this particular test you're doing.
In years past (year 2000), you could get 64MB as
a stick, but the "smallest" has gone up a lot since then.

Your GPU has 3.5GB of onboard RAM (GTX970). But the BIOS
screen should always come up, unless the "max address space"
is exceeded. Let's say that is 8GB, just pulling the wrong
number out of the air. I could use a 2GB single stick
of RAM plus that video card, for 5.5GB total. I could
be reasonably assured that the BIOS screen would then come
up.

Once you can see the screen, *future* tests can
use your bigger DIMMs. The objective is to
get to see the BIOS screen first. Once you prove
there isn't a motherboard hardware failure, then
lots of other test cases will make sense to do later.

Windows 10 can start with as little as 256MB of system
memory (tested in a VM environment, to see if it was
possible). While the stated minimum is 1GB, that's
the stated "comfortable" minimum, not the "absolute"
minimum. If you run Windows 10 with 256MB, a task
called the "Memory Compressor" runs almost continuously,
as a measure of how "annoyed" the OS is about this
development :-) When you use 1GB of RAM, the
memory compressor almost comes to a stop.

Paul
  #18  
Old December 14th 19, 08:44 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Norm Why[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 114
Default Problems rebuilding system

"John McGaw" wrote
You can get a "no beep" condition, by using a
reset button crushed in the ON position. Usually
OEM computer cases are the ones with sufficiently
cheesy buttons on the front of the computer, to
make incidents like this possible. I have one
computer here, where the buttons are such,
I know that some day that's how those buttons
will fail. The buttons speak of cheapness.


Anything mechanical is always suspect. I've been using a couple of
identical Antec cases, not normally noted for being cheap, for computers
now residing in the basement "computer room". Not too long after purchase
(but outside any hope of warranty) the power switch failed on one of them
and drove me crazy for a while. Rather than give up I swapped the
connections between "power" and "reset" on the MB and it has worked fine
for years now. Only real problem is that I can almost never remember which
of the cases has the swapped switches. If I had any sense I'd apply some
masking tape over the dead switch to remind me...


Thanks John. Maybe reassignment of connections is the answer.

Because of propagation delays, the group seems not to have seen my latest
post or

"How-to-connect-case-cables-system-panel."
https://assets.rockpapershotgun.com/...stem-panel.jpg





  #19  
Old December 14th 19, 09:08 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Paul[_28_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,467
Default Problems rebuilding system

Norm Why wrote:
The Power Switch is confirmed.
The Power LED is confirmed.
The Reset Switch is confirmed.

Maybe the HDD Activity LED is in fact polarized Speaker Leads. These pins
are so tiny it is hard to tell. But it is only these that need closer
inspection.

This is a URL to an image of the MX330-X front panel connector:
"How-to-connect-case-cables-system-panel."
https://assets.rockpapershotgun.com/...stem-panel.jpg

Note there is no HDD Activity LED between pins 1, 2. They belong
elsewhere. On the GA-EP45-DS3L they belong on pins 20, 14. In this image
they appear on pins 18, 14.

Now to sleep.


[correction, even and odd # pins are on opposite sides of header]

Houston, we have a problem. HDD Activity LED pins 1, 3 and MX330-X
connection is fused and clearly marked HDD Activity LED & polarity. While
Power LED MX330-X connectors are not fused, polarity marked and might be a
candidate to connect to pins 20, 14, they are confirmed as Power LED. When
ON the Power LED glows steady and does not pulse as expected for front-panel
speaker beep. Maybe an email to Cougar is needed. Strange, this problem was
not flagged in reviews.



No, Mr.Engineer, we don't have a problem.

https://i.postimg.cc/JnXsBwGc/LED-driver-circuit.gif

LED driver circuits tend to have current limiting
resistors in series with the power source. This
limits current flow to a safe value. In the
above picture, the rail was 5 volts, the resistor
330 ohms, and the series current flow cannot be
greater than 5V/330ohms = 15mA. Commonly available
indicator LEDs (T13/4 size) are rated for 20mA or more.
(I have one here rated for 100mA but that's more unusual.)

Fuses on motherboards, they cost money, and they're only
fitted in certain places. For example, industry practice
is to *not* put a fuse in the fan power path. On occasion,
the fan power path is burned out because of this.

Places that fuses are used:

1) Power pin on the parallel port connector.
2) Power pin on the PS/2 keyboard connectors.
3) Pairs of USB headers have a fuse (each 2x5 gets a fuse).

The very cheapest of motherboards, use a single fuse running
to 1,2,3. You might find mainstream motherboards with
five fuses or so.

It's also possible to use silicon fuses. These are an
eight pin DIP, sufficient to police current flow in
two circuits. When you're counting fuses, those would
be easy to miss in the analysis. A silicon fuse uses
a MOSFET to interrupt measured current flow. Silicon fuses
are a preferred solution inside a laptop (where there is
poor cooling available).

*******

There are various ways to do LED drivers.
"Series" or "Shunt".

This is series drive. The bipolar transistor can be a 2N2222
or the circuit can be driven by an open collector
74F06 or a 74F07 (as examples).

+ -
+5V ---Rlimit--- Anode Cathode -- C E ---- GND
LED B
|
transistor drive

In shunt drive, the circuit looks like this.

+ -
+5V ---Rlimit--+-- Anode Cathode ---- GND
| LED
+-----C E ------------ GND
B
|
transistor drive

In the shunt case, the Vce of the transistor, when
it is on, must be lower than Vfb of the LED. The LED
might be a 1.8V to 2.2V indicator. The transistor
Vce might be 0.4V. When the transistor in the shunt
case turns on, it shunts all the current (the 15mA)
to Ground. And since the transistor conducts until
Vce is 0.4V, the 0.4V across the LED is not sufficient
to cause it to light up. When the shunting path is ON,
the LED is OFF.

In the series case, the transistor Vce of 0.4V causes
minimal loss to the 5V supply. Now, the circuit sees
4.6V. It's delivered through the 330 ohm resistor, and
well less than 15mA flows through the LED. (That's
since the LED drops some voltage too, causing even
less current to flow through the 330ohm.)

The circuit above is generous enough to work
with red,yellow,green,blue LEDs. If the supply voltage
drops to 3.3V for some reason, then you might have a
problem getting a blue (or white) LED to light. The
ones I own at the moment run from 2.5V. 3.3V - 2.5 - 0.4
leaves only 0.4V across the 330 ohm resistor, or 1.2mA,
which doesn't always yield a good lighting experience.

The engineer designing the board, would not normally
assume blue LEDs are being used, as back when this
nonsense started, the LEDs were always red in color.

The design is resistant to most "expected" failure
modes. If the LED fails short, there's no fire.

It is possible, with enough shenanigans by the computer
builder, to connect the wrong things together and
damage something. The motherboard designer is under
no requirement to protect against "stupid stuff". All parts
cost money, and the motherboard makers are so profit-incented,
they will remove useful gold pins costing only a penny
or two apiece, to make more profit. And that's part of
the engineers job, is cost-reducing the product, balancing
"reasonable" feature sets against BOM (Bill Of Materials)
costs.

When they put "toys" on a motherboard, the marketing
department made them do that. Things like Port 80 displays,
Bitchin Betty (Winbond acoustic POST output chip), those
are gimmicks to sell more motherboards. And not essential
to running an OS with the door closed on the computer case.

Paul
  #20  
Old December 14th 19, 09:21 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Paul[_28_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,467
Default Problems rebuilding system

Norm Why wrote:
"John McGaw" wrote
You can get a "no beep" condition, by using a
reset button crushed in the ON position. Usually
OEM computer cases are the ones with sufficiently
cheesy buttons on the front of the computer, to
make incidents like this possible. I have one
computer here, where the buttons are such,
I know that some day that's how those buttons
will fail. The buttons speak of cheapness.

Anything mechanical is always suspect. I've been using a couple of
identical Antec cases, not normally noted for being cheap, for computers
now residing in the basement "computer room". Not too long after purchase
(but outside any hope of warranty) the power switch failed on one of them
and drove me crazy for a while. Rather than give up I swapped the
connections between "power" and "reset" on the MB and it has worked fine
for years now. Only real problem is that I can almost never remember which
of the cases has the swapped switches. If I had any sense I'd apply some
masking tape over the dead switch to remind me...


Thanks John. Maybe reassignment of connections is the answer.

Because of propagation delays, the group seems not to have seen my latest
post or

"How-to-connect-case-cables-system-panel."
https://assets.rockpapershotgun.com/...stem-panel.jpg


What is that a picture of ?

It doesn't seem to be your GA-EP45-DS3L.

And the black wiring depicted, is a mistake when
doing builder work. You want classically colored
twisted pairs for each 2-pin thing needing
connections. It makes it easier to get the polarity
right on the first try (for LEDs).

No harm will come from hooking up a two pin pair the
wrong way around. I prefer the color code, because
it tells me "what they had in mind" when they wired it.

Antec in particular, has made mistakes on front panel
wiring more than once. The part I consider weird
about this, is when they do make a mistake, it's *never*
with the VCC pin, never a risk of smoke or fire.
How do they make these mistakes, without ever
involving a "hot" pin ? I could never figure that
part out. If you bring me an Antec case today,
I'll get out my ohmmeter and buzz out the wiring
harness, before using it.

Paul
 




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