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ArcServe vs. BackupExec



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 29th 03, 03:59 PM
John Seed
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Default ArcServe vs. BackupExec

Hi!

We've been using ArcServe for NT/W2K for a number of years. Our
software vendor is pushing us to switch over to BackupExec ("it's got
a clearer roadmap").

I'm trying to analyse the sales bumpf from both companies to work out
if one is clearer better than the other.

Have any of you guys used both ArcServe and Exec recently (the latest
versions) and come up with a clear opinion as to which you prefer?

This will be for new W2K/2003 servers to be installed in an ongoing
basis. We will have each server backup itself and no other machine,
just nightly backups, nothing too fancy. We have about 40 servers.

We keep moaning about ArcServe, but I'm wondering if BackupExec is
vastly superior and is worth the bother.

Any comments would be appreciated,

Thanks,

John Seed
  #3  
Old September 29th 03, 08:42 PM
Rob Turk
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Default

"Faeandar" wrote in message
s.com...
I saw ArcServe in production several years ago (3 employers ago) and
it was in the tank every week. I saw Backup Exec in production the
next employer and he swore by it.

No hands-on experience but what I've seen leads me to believe Backup
Exec is much better. Of course now that Veritas owns it who knows,
but Veritas can't be worse than CA, imo.

~F


Both products are of comparable quality. Set them up properly and they both
do their job. Make a mistake or don't think your installation through, both
will fail miserably.

soapbox
One thing I've always hated about these products is their failure modes. In
real life problems will always occur. Networks are not infallable, disks do
crash every now and then, bad memory happens, and bad media does exist. In
all of these cases, both products send you on a ghost hunt with cryptic,
sometimes dead wrong error messages and unclear recovery procedures. Their
internal structures get confused easily, and often the only way out is a
clean install, removing indexes, device definitions or job schedules. I
think both BackupExec and ArcServe were once a clean design, 10 years ago.
Over the years the same core that was designed to back up Windows 3.1 has
been expanded to do new tricks and live up to ever more featuritis. They now
are both way past stability and in dire need for a complete overhaul.
/soapbox

I would take a serious look at products of more recent design or which went
through a thorough re-implementation. NetVault and Commvault are good
examples. Check them out

Rob


  #4  
Old September 30th 03, 03:00 AM
Paul
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Default

What's your beef with ArcServe? Not that I think it's great SW, but it
would help if we knew what frustrates you about it...

ArcServe ain't going nowhere for a while. For one thing, CA can barely give
away their enterprise product after the debacle that was BEB 10.0 (10.5 is
much less buggy). ArcServe is their "toe in the door" of many shops, and
they're continuing development on it. Matter of fact, most of the interface
code is shared between both BEB and BAB. For another thing, lots of vendors
have separate entry-level and mid-range solutions. After all, Veritas has
Netbackup as well as BackupExec, but that doesn't mean they're going to
leave BackupExec users in the rain. Ask your SW vendor about the "roadmap"
for BackupExec and see what he says.

My feeling is that your vendor:
1. Has a new relationship with Veritas or;
2. Is having problems with their relationship with CA or;
3. Is trying to fix problems with their Veritas relationship.

HighHorseDon't do a damn thing just because your SW vendor is spreading
FUD. That's a very shady method of selling, and when I was a customer, if
someone tried to pull that kind of crap with me, I went elsewhere for my
software. I suggest ****ing him off by taking his suggestion and taking a
look at other backup products, such as BakBone's NetVault, SyncSort, etc.
Contact those companies directly, so he doesn't have a chance to get the
business./HighHorse

As far as the comparison between ArcServe and BackupExec is concerned, both
have their shortcomings. I agree with Rob Turk's soapbox too.... Commvault
is a nice product, but pricier than the other packages. Netvault is an
excellent product, but is a bit lacking in documentation, as many new
packages are. But it's cheap, and as idiot-proof as backup software can
possibly be. I especially recommend Netvault if you have any Netapp gear in
house. Don't have any experience with Syncsort, but I hear it's cool.

Also, if I had a dollar for every customer who blamed the backup software
for broken and/or underpowered hardware, I'd be a rich man. Don't blow your
wad on backup software if what you really need is some better hardware or
gigE between your clients and backup server. As an engineer, I find myself
being dragged into meeting where the salesguy thought he was going to sell
some SW, and ends up deploying a cheap gig backup network and a $10k LTO
stacker instead.

I suggest you insist on live trials of everything, and work with it for a
month or so before buying.

--paul

"John Seed" wrote in message
om...
Hi!

We've been using ArcServe for NT/W2K for a number of years. Our
software vendor is pushing us to switch over to BackupExec ("it's got
a clearer roadmap").

I'm trying to analyse the sales bumpf from both companies to work out
if one is clearer better than the other.

Have any of you guys used both ArcServe and Exec recently (the latest
versions) and come up with a clear opinion as to which you prefer?

This will be for new W2K/2003 servers to be installed in an ongoing
basis. We will have each server backup itself and no other machine,
just nightly backups, nothing too fancy. We have about 40 servers.

We keep moaning about ArcServe, but I'm wondering if BackupExec is
vastly superior and is worth the bother.

Any comments would be appreciated,

Thanks,

John Seed



  #5  
Old October 1st 03, 09:03 AM
John Seed
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sarcasmPaul, I can't believe you doubt the true intentions of my SW
vendor in promoting BackupExec. And I thought he's change in
direction was down purely to his desire to constantly strive towards
providing us with the best software for our business./sarcasm

Seriously, thanks for the input. I'll take the comments on board.

Our "beef" with ArcServe was only really that we didn't understand it.
The cryptic error messages that it comes up with certainly never
helped. When it used to break and not run and then we would fix it
the next day, it would immediately fire into life and start on the
previous nights backup, which meant that it ran the pre execution task
of shutting down the DB's and booting all the users off. OK, when
you're ready for this and cater for it happening but frustrating (and
embarrasing) when you're not.

After 5 years we're used to ArcServe, we almost actually like it

John
  #6  
Old October 1st 03, 07:51 PM
Paul
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If you're running successful, reliable backup with ArcServe, then I wouldn't
replace it. You'll find yourself spending six months deciphering cryptic
error messages from BackupExec (as opposed to deciphering cryptic messages
from ArcServe (which you already know about).

ArcServe is not the vastly superior product you're looking for. If you want
an upgrade, look at NetVault. The price will be right around the price for
BackupExec. You can always give it a try and see if you like it, but I
recommend that you take a look at bakbone's trial too.

--paul

Our "beef" with ArcServe was only really that we didn't understand it.
The cryptic error messages that it comes up with certainly never
helped. When it used to break and not run and then we would fix it
the next day, it would immediately fire into life and start on the
previous nights backup, which meant that it ran the pre execution task
of shutting down the DB's and booting all the users off. OK, when
you're ready for this and cater for it happening but frustrating (and
embarrasing) when you're not.

After 5 years we're used to ArcServe, we almost actually like it



  #8  
Old October 6th 03, 11:17 AM
paul blitz
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You know, it's very interesting what you say. I've very rapidly become very
negative about ArcServe.

We recently bought a nice 8-slot dell autochanger, along with ArcServe (the
version we got was Arcserve 2000, which it seems is NOT particularly up to
date!).

My initial feelings were "this software is no better than tape software was
15 to 20 years ago". Ok, it has a prettier front end, but is just as
difficult to use, and the documentation is pants! (Yes, if you understand
the product, then the docs maybe make sense... but if you understand the
product, you probably no longer need the docs!!!)

We are using ArcServe across our network, specifically for 4 tasks:
- backup our (small) SQL server
- backup our (slightly bigger) exchange server
- back up about 20 gig of "central data"
- back up about 100g from a "ghost" server

We've had all sorts of issues, and ended up recently with a screwed up
database, which needed a full reinstall. Now, after about 10 hours of
telephone support (maybe that should say "support / TRAINING") from Dell,
things are starting to make a *bit* of sense, and we are, at last, starting
to make progress in actually being SUCCESSFUL in making tape backups!

I too would like to hear of what otehrs think about ArcServe, and other
viable alternatives for our setup (bear in mind we need across-network
backup, and clients to support SQL / Exchange / Open Files).


paul


  #9  
Old October 6th 03, 04:21 PM
Peter da Silva
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Default

In article ,
paul blitz wrote:
My initial feelings were "this software is no better than tape software was
15 to 20 years ago".


This *is* your father's Oldsmobile.

--
I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofs
of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate. All
these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain. `-_-'
Time for your nap. | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag? 'U`
  #10  
Old October 6th 03, 10:50 PM
Paul
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Default

Exchange is where ArcServe really stinks. It normally backs up fine, but
the restores are squirrelly when trying to go directly to Exchange.
Certainly not all the blame lies with CA, cuz Exchange really stinks all by
itself. If you're not already at Exchange 2000, be prepared to re-learn the
restore procedures when you upgrade.

Try getting the new version of ArcServe; I think it's at version 9.

As far as your applications go, almost every package you could look at
(CommVault, Netbackup, Networker, NetVault, Backup Express, Backup Exec,
etc) has plugins available to support them. I personally like CommVault
(Galaxy), BakBone (NetVault), and SyncSort (Backup Express). My least
favorites are CA's offerings (ArcServe and Enterprise Backup), because
they're so buggy. I try to stay away from Backup Exec. Two packages that
have their place is Legato Networker and Veritas Netbackup, but the learning
curve for these products can be steep.

Everybody OEMs the same open file manager from St. Bernard software. They
have the only one that's reasonably reliable. Legato tried writing their
own OFM a few years ago, and it just didn't work. The shameful fact is that
St. Bernard has the whole backup and restore industry by the short hairs,
and that's why it tends to be one of the more expensive agents. But keep in
mind that no matter what options you've purchased, there's no way to backup
a large .pst file while outlook is open without some sort of snapshot.

--paul

We are using ArcServe across our network, specifically for 4 tasks:
- backup our (small) SQL server
- backup our (slightly bigger) exchange server
- back up about 20 gig of "central data"
- back up about 100g from a "ghost" server

We've had all sorts of issues, and ended up recently with a screwed up
database, which needed a full reinstall. Now, after about 10 hours of
telephone support (maybe that should say "support / TRAINING") from Dell,
things are starting to make a *bit* of sense, and we are, at last,

starting
to make progress in actually being SUCCESSFUL in making tape backups!

I too would like to hear of what otehrs think about ArcServe, and other
viable alternatives for our setup (bear in mind we need across-network
backup, and clients to support SQL / Exchange / Open Files).


paul




 




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