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Win 10 home networking



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 26th 18, 03:53 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Charlie Hoffpauir
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 347
Default Win 10 home networking

I'm having an awful time trying to get my simple home network working
between all my computers, since the elimination of Workgroups in Win
10. Basically, I have three desktops, mine, my wife's, and one that's
acts as a file server for backups. In additiona there are three
portables of various ages, but all running either Win 10 home or pro.
My desktop can see the files on any of the computers. My Thinkpad can
see my desktops files, but not those on my wife's computer, or the
file server that I want to use for backups. Is there any writeup
somewhere that explains how to set these computers up so that each one
can see the files on the other computers?
  #2  
Old September 26th 18, 04:32 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Paul[_28_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,467
Default Win 10 home networking

Charlie Hoffpauir wrote:
I'm having an awful time trying to get my simple home network working
between all my computers, since the elimination of Workgroups in Win
10. Basically, I have three desktops, mine, my wife's, and one that's
acts as a file server for backups. In additiona there are three
portables of various ages, but all running either Win 10 home or pro.
My desktop can see the files on any of the computers. My Thinkpad can
see my desktops files, but not those on my wife's computer, or the
file server that I want to use for backups. Is there any writeup
somewhere that explains how to set these computers up so that each one
can see the files on the other computers?


Are multiple cascaded routers involved ?

Some networking setups you can easily build at
home, cause all the computers to be able to see
the Internet, but some of the computers cannot
communicate with the other computers. You are fooled
by all your working web browsers, into thinking
there is nothing wrong with your networking setup.

*******

On each computer, you can use

ipconfig

and get the network address of each computer
right now.

Then, you can use "ping tests".

192.168.1.2 192.168.1.3
| |
---+--------+-------------+--
|
|
192.168.1.4

In that example, node "2" could try

ping 192.168.1.3
ping 192.168.1.4

and verify that the other computers are "reachable".

Node "4" could try

ping 192.168.1.2
ping 192.168.1.3

And so on.

That's to verify they can actually see one another.

There is also the topic of subnets and netmasks.
But you have to start somewhere.

Even being able to draw us a picture with some IP
addresses doodled on it, is a start.

Paul
  #3  
Old September 26th 18, 03:57 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Charlie Hoffpauir
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 347
Default Win 10 home networking

On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 23:32:33 -0400, Paul
wrote:

Charlie Hoffpauir wrote:
I'm having an awful time trying to get my simple home network working
between all my computers, since the elimination of Workgroups in Win
10. Basically, I have three desktops, mine, my wife's, and one that's
acts as a file server for backups. In additiona there are three
portables of various ages, but all running either Win 10 home or pro.
My desktop can see the files on any of the computers. My Thinkpad can
see my desktops files, but not those on my wife's computer, or the
file server that I want to use for backups. Is there any writeup
somewhere that explains how to set these computers up so that each one
can see the files on the other computers?


Are multiple cascaded routers involved ?

Some networking setups you can easily build at
home, cause all the computers to be able to see
the Internet, but some of the computers cannot
communicate with the other computers. You are fooled
by all your working web browsers, into thinking
there is nothing wrong with your networking setup.

*******

On each computer, you can use

ipconfig

and get the network address of each computer
right now.

Then, you can use "ping tests".

192.168.1.2 192.168.1.3
| |
---+--------+-------------+--
|
|
192.168.1.4

In that example, node "2" could try

ping 192.168.1.3
ping 192.168.1.4

and verify that the other computers are "reachable".

Node "4" could try

ping 192.168.1.2
ping 192.168.1.3

And so on.

That's to verify they can actually see one another.

There is also the topic of subnets and netmasks.
But you have to start somewhere.

Even being able to draw us a picture with some IP
addresses doodled on it, is a start.

Paul


Thanks for the comments. I didn't give enough information, I realize,
cause I was looking for a link to some write-up to read over. However,
I do have some details that I didn't mention.
1. In some cases, I can "see" the other computer(s) from a computer
(say from my Thinkpad) but when trying to access drives on the remote,
I get a message I don't have permission to see the files. File sharing
for everyone is set up on the remote, and indeed I can see all the
drives and files and access them from my desktop computer.
2. The network is "new" in the sense that it's now using AT&T Fixed
Wireless to access the internet, and using their router. The router is
a multipurpose device that looks like they use for fixed wireless and
for other services like DSL. All the devices in my home are connected
either to the router directly via cat 5A or to a 8 port switch, or
wirelessly via WiFi. I uploaded a printout (PDF file)of all the
connections to my OneDrive. Link to it is:

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AtjEABxG0hlciiFCJVMuDI9vuVgX

If you look at the list, there are a couple of items that I can't
really identify. The one labeled Unknown might be my Ubiquity access
point, which is wired from the 8-port switch.

Also I noted that some of the devices which actually connect via a
WiFi adapter, like my wife's computer which is temporarily relocated
and can't be connected via ethernet cable, is listed as connected via
ethernet. I think this is because it connects via the Ubiquity AP,
which is connected to the router via cable.

Thanks for your comments.
  #4  
Old September 27th 18, 03:04 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Paul[_28_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,467
Default Win 10 home networking

Charlie Hoffpauir wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 23:32:33 -0400, Paul
wrote:

Charlie Hoffpauir wrote:
I'm having an awful time trying to get my simple home network working
between all my computers, since the elimination of Workgroups in Win
10. Basically, I have three desktops, mine, my wife's, and one that's
acts as a file server for backups. In additiona there are three
portables of various ages, but all running either Win 10 home or pro.
My desktop can see the files on any of the computers. My Thinkpad can
see my desktops files, but not those on my wife's computer, or the
file server that I want to use for backups. Is there any writeup
somewhere that explains how to set these computers up so that each one
can see the files on the other computers?

Are multiple cascaded routers involved ?

Some networking setups you can easily build at
home, cause all the computers to be able to see
the Internet, but some of the computers cannot
communicate with the other computers. You are fooled
by all your working web browsers, into thinking
there is nothing wrong with your networking setup.

*******

On each computer, you can use

ipconfig

and get the network address of each computer
right now.

Then, you can use "ping tests".

192.168.1.2 192.168.1.3
| |
---+--------+-------------+--
|
|
192.168.1.4

In that example, node "2" could try

ping 192.168.1.3
ping 192.168.1.4

and verify that the other computers are "reachable".

Node "4" could try

ping 192.168.1.2
ping 192.168.1.3

And so on.

That's to verify they can actually see one another.

There is also the topic of subnets and netmasks.
But you have to start somewhere.

Even being able to draw us a picture with some IP
addresses doodled on it, is a start.

Paul


Thanks for the comments. I didn't give enough information, I realize,
cause I was looking for a link to some write-up to read over. However,
I do have some details that I didn't mention.
1. In some cases, I can "see" the other computer(s) from a computer
(say from my Thinkpad) but when trying to access drives on the remote,
I get a message I don't have permission to see the files. File sharing
for everyone is set up on the remote, and indeed I can see all the
drives and files and access them from my desktop computer.
2. The network is "new" in the sense that it's now using AT&T Fixed
Wireless to access the internet, and using their router. The router is
a multipurpose device that looks like they use for fixed wireless and
for other services like DSL. All the devices in my home are connected
either to the router directly via cat 5A or to a 8 port switch, or
wirelessly via WiFi. I uploaded a printout (PDF file)of all the
connections to my OneDrive. Link to it is:

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AtjEABxG0hlciiFCJVMuDI9vuVgX

If you look at the list, there are a couple of items that I can't
really identify. The one labeled Unknown might be my Ubiquity access
point, which is wired from the 8-port switch.

Also I noted that some of the devices which actually connect via a
WiFi adapter, like my wife's computer which is temporarily relocated
and can't be connected via ethernet cable, is listed as connected via
ethernet. I think this is because it connects via the Ubiquity AP,
which is connected to the router via cable.

Thanks for your comments.


I converted your PDF into some hen-scrawl of my own.

GB_Desktop 192.168.1.65 * sees all
SuperJoey-MoCA 192.168.1.67
Hopper2-br 192.168.1.68
? 192.168.1.66
Fox (serve) 192.168.1.79 * (running IPV6)
fe80::7d7b:d30b:2df4:c95e
? 192.168.1.69
Android 192.168.1.70
Wife 192.168.1.72 *
fe80::5da5:b0c6:513c:ccfe
X SAMSUNG-SM-G930A 192.168.1.64
X Matebook 192.168.1.73 Portable
SAMSUNG-SM-G930A 192.168.1.75
fe80::ae5f:3eff:fe69:a993
SAMSUNG-SM-G930A 192.168.1.74
fe80::ae5f:3eff:fe9f:a752
X LAPTOP Thinkpad 192.168.1.76 Wifi Portable Can't see IPV6 Wife or IPV6 Fox
Galaxy-Tab-S2 192.168.1.77
fe80::b674:43ff:fe30:809d
X ROKU 192.168.1.78 Wifi
viziocastdisplay192.168.1.80
fe80::a68d:3bff:fe34:14f6

1 Portable missing from list ???

*******

IPV6 used to be a requirement of HomeGroups.
HomeGroups are deprecated in 17134.

Yet, a number of services used by HomeGroups
are still present. Something with a name like
"Function Discovery" or the like, might be one of
them.

Apparently, while IPV4 has NetBIOS (the workhorse),
one of those seven services for HomeGroup is the
IPV6 equivalent of a resource enumerator.

But that doesn't really explain your symptoms, because
your description suggests you're not having a problem
"seeing" the device, merely a problem getting in.

The standard advice for these situations is to do

\\192.168.1.79\FamilyTree

to get to a particular volume on Fox, instead of
doing symbolic access as in

\\Fox\FamilyTree

So you can attempt to contact the server (i.e. one
of your cases that does not work) and get the job
done that way.

As for fixing it properly, you'd research what the
seven services are that HomeGroups used to use,
and two of them (with perhaps Function in the name),
might play some part in Discovery of the things via
their IPV6 address.

I would hope that the OS is not set up to prioritize
one addressing scheme over the other, but such a thing
happening is probably inevitable. It could be that the
IPV6 machines lean on IPV6 first, and if their
Function Discovery thingy is missing, then the

\\Fox\FamilyTree

remains broken.

Maybe someone who has a handy list of the services to
check, could post them for you.

Plugging in some breadcrumbs from the above gets me...

https://technet.microsoft.com/pt-pt/...(v=ws.10).aspx

"NetBIOS over IPv6 is not supported. Therefore, NetBIOS name
resolution techniques cannot be used to resolve names to IPv6 addresses."

Neighbor discovery is necessary in IPV6, because you have 4 billion
link local addresses available on your own LAN. And unlike a
subnet with only 255 nodes, it's a little difficult to use a
primitive brute force search to find the other machines. A
more intelligent method is needed when a node wakes up.

Now, this article is getting a bit closer, except it is doing
the *negative* of what you want. It's disabling discovery.
But at least it has some names you can check in services.msc.

https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/...ork-resources/

# Function Discovery Resource Publication
# Function Discovery Provider host
# SSDP

Now, SSDP was a useful one back in Win7 days. It's sole
purpose back then, was to draw that network map in the
Network control center panel. It didn't seem to do anything
else at the time. But still, it's something you can check
to see if its running on the ThinkPad (which I believe is
your flaky node).

Paul
  #5  
Old September 27th 18, 03:08 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Paul[_28_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,467
Default Win 10 home networking

Charlie Hoffpauir wrote:

Thanks for your comments.


One other thing to keep in mind, is Win10 occasionally
asks for username/password, even though you've opened up
the share to everyone.

The username/password to use, must be on the serving device.

If you're Charlie on your own machine, but only
Bob account on the Fox server, then you want to log
into the Fox server as Bob:Bobs_password.

I think that's what I've been doing here.

That isn't your problem either, because I think you're
being flat-out denied all access.

Paul
  #6  
Old September 27th 18, 06:09 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Charlie Hoffpauir
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 347
Default Win 10 home networking

On Wed, 26 Sep 2018 22:04:50 -0400, Paul
wrote:

snipped

I converted your PDF into some hen-scrawl of my own.

GB_Desktop 192.168.1.65 * sees all
SuperJoey-MoCA 192.168.1.67
Hopper2-br 192.168.1.68
? 192.168.1.66
Fox (serve) 192.168.1.79 * (running IPV6)
fe80::7d7b:d30b:2df4:c95e
? 192.168.1.69
Android 192.168.1.70
Wife 192.168.1.72 *
fe80::5da5:b0c6:513c:ccfe
X SAMSUNG-SM-G930A 192.168.1.64
X Matebook 192.168.1.73 Portable


Matebook can see all computers and files on them.
SAMSUNG-SM-G930A 192.168.1.75
fe80::ae5f:3eff:fe69:a993
SAMSUNG-SM-G930A 192.168.1.74
fe80::ae5f:3eff:fe9f:a752
X LAPTOP Thinkpad 192.168.1.76 Wifi Portable Can't see IPV6 Wife or IPV6 Fox

Correct, Thinkpad seems to be the only one that can't see everything.
Yet thinkpad CAN see everything on GB.
Galaxy-Tab-S2 192.168.1.77
fe80::b674:43ff:fe30:809d
X ROKU 192.168.1.78 Wifi
viziocastdisplay192.168.1.80
fe80::a68d:3bff:fe34:14f6

1 Portable missing from list ???

Yes, Samsung Series 7 was off when this was generated. Just checked,
it is assigned 192.168.1.81 Samsung can see Thinkpad and access files
on it, but thinkpad can't access files on Samsung.

*******

IPV6 used to be a requirement of HomeGroups.
HomeGroups are deprecated in 17134.

Yet, a number of services used by HomeGroups
are still present. Something with a name like
"Function Discovery" or the like, might be one of
them.

Apparently, while IPV4 has NetBIOS (the workhorse),
one of those seven services for HomeGroup is the
IPV6 equivalent of a resource enumerator.

But that doesn't really explain your symptoms, because
your description suggests you're not having a problem
"seeing" the device, merely a problem getting in.

The standard advice for these situations is to do

\\192.168.1.79\FamilyTree

to get to a particular volume on Fox, instead of
doing symbolic access as in

\\Fox\FamilyTree

So you can attempt to contact the server (i.e. one
of your cases that does not work) and get the job
done that way.

Tried that. As before, I get to the computer, but cannot access any of
the drives or files, even when addressing as you suggested.

As for fixing it properly, you'd research what the
seven services are that HomeGroups used to use,
and two of them (with perhaps Function in the name),
might play some part in Discovery of the things via
their IPV6 address.

I would hope that the OS is not set up to prioritize
one addressing scheme over the other, but such a thing
happening is probably inevitable. It could be that the
IPV6 machines lean on IPV6 first, and if their
Function Discovery thingy is missing, then the

\\Fox\FamilyTree

remains broken.

Maybe someone who has a handy list of the services to
check, could post them for you.

Plugging in some breadcrumbs from the above gets me...

https://technet.microsoft.com/pt-pt/...(v=ws.10).aspx

"NetBIOS over IPv6 is not supported. Therefore, NetBIOS name
resolution techniques cannot be used to resolve names to IPv6 addresses."

Neighbor discovery is necessary in IPV6, because you have 4 billion
link local addresses available on your own LAN. And unlike a
subnet with only 255 nodes, it's a little difficult to use a
primitive brute force search to find the other machines. A
more intelligent method is needed when a node wakes up.

Now, this article is getting a bit closer, except it is doing
the *negative* of what you want. It's disabling discovery.
But at least it has some names you can check in services.msc.

https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/...ork-resources/

# Function Discovery Resource Publication
# Function Discovery Provider host
# SSDP

Now, SSDP was a useful one back in Win7 days. It's sole
purpose back then, was to draw that network map in the
Network control center panel. It didn't seem to do anything
else at the time. But still, it's something you can check
to see if its running on the ThinkPad (which I believe is
your flaky node).

Paul


Yes, it's becoming clearer that the Thinkpad, also the most recent
addition, is the problem. I can access the server or any other
computer from any device except the Thinkpad. But the Thinkpad can
ONLY access my desktop (GB) computer. In fact, since I have access to
everyone on all the devices set, it can see everything on GB but
nothing on any other device. This really puzzles me....
Thanks for all the comments and suggestions, but this is really
getting out of my limited understanding of networking.
  #7  
Old September 27th 18, 09:05 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Paul[_28_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,467
Default Win 10 home networking

Charlie Hoffpauir wrote:


Yes, it's becoming clearer that the Thinkpad, also the most recent
addition, is the problem. I can access the server or any other
computer from any device except the Thinkpad. But the Thinkpad can
ONLY access my desktop (GB) computer. In fact, since I have access to
everyone on all the devices set, it can see everything on GB but
nothing on any other device. This really puzzles me....
Thanks for all the comments and suggestions, but this is really
getting out of my limited understanding of networking.


When you make the connection, is it asking for username/password ?

And then after that, you can't access anything on the volume ?

Paul
  #8  
Old September 29th 18, 02:56 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Charlie Hoffpauir
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 347
Default Win 10 home networking

On Thu, 27 Sep 2018 16:05:08 -0400, Paul
wrote:

Charlie Hoffpauir wrote:


Yes, it's becoming clearer that the Thinkpad, also the most recent
addition, is the problem. I can access the server or any other
computer from any device except the Thinkpad. But the Thinkpad can
ONLY access my desktop (GB) computer. In fact, since I have access to
everyone on all the devices set, it can see everything on GB but
nothing on any other device. This really puzzles me....
Thanks for all the comments and suggestions, but this is really
getting out of my limited understanding of networking.


When you make the connection, is it asking for username/password ?

And then after that, you can't access anything on the volume ?

Paul


From the Thinkpad, I ask to view files on wife's computer:
\\JoAnn-pc

Windows then displays the printer that's attached to JoAnn-pc and all
the drive letters assigned, and also certain folders like Users.
However if I try to actually look at the contents of any of the
drives, for example i, I get the message "windows cannot access
\\joann-pc\i

You do not have permission fo access \\joann-pc\i. Contact your
network administrator to request access.

However, JoAnn-pc is set up for access by "everyone", and indeed I can
view the files from other computers on the network, both connected by
wireless and by cable.

Another bit of information. If at the stage where the drive letters
are displayed, I try to look at the folder Users, I can open that
folder and look at all the files under the folder Public. And I just
tried to copy a file to the folder Public and confirmed that I can do
that.
  #9  
Old September 29th 18, 03:02 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Charlie Hoffpauir
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 347
Default Win 10 home networking

On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 08:56:03 -0500, Charlie Hoffpauir
wrote:

On Thu, 27 Sep 2018 16:05:08 -0400, Paul
wrote:

Charlie Hoffpauir wrote:


Yes, it's becoming clearer that the Thinkpad, also the most recent
addition, is the problem. I can access the server or any other
computer from any device except the Thinkpad. But the Thinkpad can
ONLY access my desktop (GB) computer. In fact, since I have access to
everyone on all the devices set, it can see everything on GB but
nothing on any other device. This really puzzles me....
Thanks for all the comments and suggestions, but this is really
getting out of my limited understanding of networking.


When you make the connection, is it asking for username/password ?

And then after that, you can't access anything on the volume ?

Paul


From the Thinkpad, I ask to view files on wife's computer:
\\JoAnn-pc

Windows then displays the printer that's attached to JoAnn-pc and all
the drive letters assigned, and also certain folders like Users.
However if I try to actually look at the contents of any of the
drives, for example i, I get the message "windows cannot access
\\joann-pc\i

You do not have permission fo access \\joann-pc\i. Contact your
network administrator to request access.

However, JoAnn-pc is set up for access by "everyone", and indeed I can
view the files from other computers on the network, both connected by
wireless and by cable.

Another bit of information. If at the stage where the drive letters
are displayed, I try to look at the folder Users, I can open that
folder and look at all the files under the folder Public. And I just
tried to copy a file to the folder Public and confirmed that I can do
that.


And no, in this case, I'm not asked for user name and password.
  #10  
Old September 29th 18, 08:18 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Paul[_28_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,467
Default Win 10 home networking

Charlie Hoffpauir wrote:
On Thu, 27 Sep 2018 16:05:08 -0400, Paul
wrote:

Charlie Hoffpauir wrote:

Yes, it's becoming clearer that the Thinkpad, also the most recent
addition, is the problem. I can access the server or any other
computer from any device except the Thinkpad. But the Thinkpad can
ONLY access my desktop (GB) computer. In fact, since I have access to
everyone on all the devices set, it can see everything on GB but
nothing on any other device. This really puzzles me....
Thanks for all the comments and suggestions, but this is really
getting out of my limited understanding of networking.

When you make the connection, is it asking for username/password ?

And then after that, you can't access anything on the volume ?

Paul


From the Thinkpad, I ask to view files on wife's computer:
\\JoAnn-pc

Windows then displays the printer that's attached to JoAnn-pc and all
the drive letters assigned, and also certain folders like Users.
However if I try to actually look at the contents of any of the
drives, for example i, I get the message "windows cannot access
\\joann-pc\i

You do not have permission fo access \\joann-pc\i. Contact your
network administrator to request access.

However, JoAnn-pc is set up for access by "everyone", and indeed I can
view the files from other computers on the network, both connected by
wireless and by cable.

Another bit of information. If at the stage where the drive letters
are displayed, I try to look at the folder Users, I can open that
folder and look at all the files under the folder Public. And I just
tried to copy a file to the folder Public and confirmed that I can do
that.


File sharing has more controls than the StarShipEnterprise.

In this example, is a tick box for
"Use user accounts and passwords to connect to other computers"

https://i.stack.imgur.com/Htjxu.png

At the other end, the JoAnn-pc, does the JoAnn account use a
password ? Is it an empty password ? Perhaps, if the client
machine trying to contact the JoAnn-pc server is Windows 10,
it will get into a tizzy about "security" and insist on a
password.

There are enough tick boxes in those stupid interfaces, and
various "features" in the OSes, to keep you busy testing for weeks...

*******

And the kooky answer of the week award goes to this thread,
where a Win10 machine refuses to access a second machine,
unless a *local* credential on the client machine is used.
Versus the remote account username and password we would
normally enter. Makes no sense at all.

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/...b-21b5ab2b3d02

*******

I've tried to debug some of these using Wireshark, but it
doesn't have a detailed enough "dissector" to tell you
exactly what is going on. There's a bitmap field for
example, that it doesn't decode and that's the one you
want info about. The sharing failure I was debugging
was WinXP client and Win10 server, where the Win10
server sends back a "Need More Info" error message.
Which could mean... just about anything.

Paul
 




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