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Building Computer, need advice, please.



 
 
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  #11  
Old August 29th 04, 11:30 AM
David Maynard
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heartofBruce wrote:

Hey David Maynard,
are you the David I know? Do you work in the MSSG?


Nope. A different one.

Seems there's a fair number of us too because I get calls for various other
'wrong' versions of 'me' from time to time. hehe


==============
Posted through www.HowToFixComputers.com/bb - free access to hardware troubleshooting newsgroups.


  #12  
Old August 29th 04, 12:33 PM
Dave C.
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I always get a kick out of people who define "professional" as 'the ones
who agree with me'.


And I get just as much of a kick out of people who disagree with
professionals as they are sure that they know better than the pros
o. -Dave


  #13  
Old August 30th 04, 02:36 AM
David Maynard
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Dave C. wrote:

I always get a kick out of people who define "professional" as 'the ones
who agree with me'.



And I get just as much of a kick out of people who disagree with
professionals as they are sure that they know better than the pros
o. -Dave


I have no disagreement at all with 'professionals'. It is YOU I have a
disagreement with.

  #14  
Old August 30th 04, 02:57 AM
Mac Cool
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"Dave C." said:

Now what if 15 bazillion other drivers swore up and down that it was
OK to start an engine with no oil in it, and that it runs just fine that
way?


Dave, you are only making yourself look foolish. Educate yourself on
overclocking so that you can at least object intelligently. Yes, there are
potential drawbacks to overclocking, and yes, anyone whose primary concern
is stability should not run their hardware above spec. (They should stick
to intel chips exclusively IMO. Not that AMDs are unstable, but I have
never had a VIA based motherboard that was 100% stable. I don't know how
the nvidia boards are.)

In my experience, if a machine is stable to begin with, it will be stable
when moderately overclocked. I suppose saying so makes me an 'idiot', but
at least I know the difference between putting lubricant on moving parts
and running electronics beyond spec.
--
Mac Cool
  #15  
Old August 30th 04, 04:16 AM
JK
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Mac Cool wrote:

"Dave C." said:

Now what if 15 bazillion other drivers swore up and down that it was
OK to start an engine with no oil in it, and that it runs just fine that
way?


Dave, you are only making yourself look foolish. Educate yourself on
overclocking so that you can at least object intelligently. Yes, there are
potential drawbacks to overclocking, and yes, anyone whose primary concern
is stability should not run their hardware above spec. (They should stick
to intel chips exclusively IMO. Not that AMDs are unstable, but I have
never had a VIA based motherboard that was 100% stable.


If you hate Via chipsets for any reason(even though the current ones are
quite good), you could choose a motherboard for an Athlon XP or Athlon 64
with an Nvidia chipset. So a dislike of Via chipsets should not be a reason
to avoid AMD processors.

I don't know how
the nvidia boards are.)


They are also good, as are the current Via chipsets. Intel has had issues
with past chipsets, yet you only want to have a boycott of Via for their
past mistakes, and not a boycott of Intel.



In my experience, if a machine is stable to begin with, it will be stable
when moderately overclocked.


not necessarily true.

I suppose saying so makes me an 'idiot'


Not an idiot, but perhaps a risk taker? When you drive, do you like
to go above the speed limit.

, but
at least I know the difference between putting lubricant on moving parts
and running electronics beyond spec.
--
Mac Cool


  #16  
Old August 30th 04, 01:30 PM
Dave C.
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"Mac Cool" wrote in message
...
"Dave C." said:

Now what if 15 bazillion other drivers swore up and down that it was
OK to start an engine with no oil in it, and that it runs just fine that
way?


Dave, you are only making yourself look foolish. Educate yourself on
overclocking so that you can at least object intelligently. Yes, there are
potential drawbacks to overclocking, and yes, anyone whose primary concern
is stability should not run their hardware above spec.


Well, that's a good start. It's not just stability that you need to worry
about. Try doing a study on MTBF and how heat affects it. I'm not talking
system temperature or CPU temperature . . . I'm talking about internal IC
temperatures. Now keep in mind that overclocking affects every component in
your computer, not just the CPU. Even if you have a stable overclocked
system, you have shortened the life of every component in your PC by
overclocking it. That's WITHOUT messing around with voltages. Some
overclockers find it necessary to tweak voltages to achieve stability,
greatly increasing internally generated heat of vital components. So you
add extra cooling, right? Guess what . . . that only gives you a warm fuzzy
feeling when you watch your system temperatures drop. You need the extra
cooling because the ICs are generating more heat internally. In other
words, they are already damaged. The extra cooling does squat.

I know there are people who don't CARE how long their computer lasts, as
they are going to sell it in a year or (better yet) pass it off to their
mother-in-law whom they really don't like much. Overclocking is still a bad
idea for those folks. To "overclock correctly" (now there's an oxymoron),
you need to put a lot of time and effort into researching the proper
components that will not only overclock well, but work well with all other
components when THEY are overclocked. Plus you need to upgrade certain
components, like better cases, more expensive RAM, adding extra cooling fans
or more expensive HSF solutions for your CPU . . . and that's just to
mention a few. If you look at the time and effort (and money) you spend on
"overclocking correctly", you'll find you could have spent the same amount
of money (time is money also, remember) on building a faster system that
runs at factory specifications.

Or as I've said many times, if you need a faster system, build it. -Dave


  #17  
Old August 30th 04, 03:01 PM
David Maynard
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Dave C. wrote:

"Mac Cool" wrote in message
...

"Dave C." said:


Now what if 15 bazillion other drivers swore up and down that it was
OK to start an engine with no oil in it, and that it runs just fine that
way?


Dave, you are only making yourself look foolish. Educate yourself on
overclocking so that you can at least object intelligently. Yes, there are
potential drawbacks to overclocking, and yes, anyone whose primary concern
is stability should not run their hardware above spec.



Well, that's a good start. It's not just stability that you need to worry
about. Try doing a study on MTBF and how heat affects it. I'm not talking
system temperature or CPU temperature . . . I'm talking about internal IC
temperatures. Now keep in mind that overclocking affects every component in
your computer, not just the CPU. Even if you have a stable overclocked
system, you have shortened the life of every component in your PC by
overclocking it. That's WITHOUT messing around with voltages. Some
overclockers find it necessary to tweak voltages to achieve stability,
greatly increasing internally generated heat of vital components. So you
add extra cooling, right? Guess what . . . that only gives you a warm fuzzy
feeling when you watch your system temperatures drop. You need the extra
cooling because the ICs are generating more heat internally. In other
words, they are already damaged. The extra cooling does squat.

I know there are people who don't CARE how long their computer lasts, as
they are going to sell it in a year or (better yet) pass it off to their
mother-in-law whom they really don't like much. Overclocking is still a bad
idea for those folks. To "overclock correctly" (now there's an oxymoron),
you need to put a lot of time and effort into researching the proper
components that will not only overclock well, but work well with all other
components when THEY are overclocked. Plus you need to upgrade certain
components, like better cases, more expensive RAM, adding extra cooling fans
or more expensive HSF solutions for your CPU . . . and that's just to
mention a few. If you look at the time and effort (and money) you spend on
"overclocking correctly", you'll find you could have spent the same amount
of money (time is money also, remember) on building a faster system that
runs at factory specifications.

Or as I've said many times, if you need a faster system, build it. -Dave



The problem I have with your 'analysis' is that you take a smidgen of
information you've acquired from lord knows where and then extrapolate it
to 'absolutist' hysterical assertions.

For example, you make the wild 'absolutist' claim that "overclocking
affects every component in your computer, not just the CPU." Now, I defy
you to explain how 'every component in the computer' has even the slightest
clue that the processor multiplier has been changed and that, say, an 1833
Mhz processor is being 'overclocked' to 2200 MHz instead of it being a
'legitimate' 2200 MHz processor. Or that a 300 Mhz processor, normally run
on a 66 MHz Bus, is being run 450 at 100MHz FSB isn't a 'legitimate'
450Mhz/100Mhz FSB processor operating at the perfectly normal and
'officially' specified FSB? In those examples the rest of the computer will
not care one WHIT, or even know, because it's only 'connection' is the
perfectly normal FSB.

Your 'absolutist' assertion is just plain not true.

And the rest of your assertions have just as many wildly flawed hysterical
extrapolations.

  #18  
Old August 30th 04, 03:45 PM
Dave C.
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The problem I have with your 'analysis' is that you take a smidgen of
information you've acquired from lord knows where and then extrapolate it
to 'absolutist' hysterical assertions.

For example, you make the wild 'absolutist' claim that "overclocking
affects every component in your computer, not just the CPU." Now, I defy
you to explain how 'every component in the computer' has even the

slightest
clue that the processor multiplier has been changed and that, say, an 1833
Mhz processor is being 'overclocked' to 2200 MHz instead of it being a
'legitimate' 2200 MHz processor.


If you only change the Processor multiplier, that will have very little
effect on the overall speed of your system, so why would an overclocker even
bother? But I'll humor you. You want to know how that would affect every
component in the computer. Simple, really. If the CPU speeds up, the other
components don't SLOW DOWN. Think of it like a train with the CPU being the
engine. If the CPU speeds up, the other components do also, or some bad
things happen. -Dave


  #19  
Old August 31st 04, 02:42 AM
David Maynard
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Dave C. wrote:
The problem I have with your 'analysis' is that you take a smidgen of
information you've acquired from lord knows where and then extrapolate it
to 'absolutist' hysterical assertions.

For example, you make the wild 'absolutist' claim that "overclocking
affects every component in your computer, not just the CPU." Now, I defy
you to explain how 'every component in the computer' has even the


slightest

clue that the processor multiplier has been changed and that, say, an 1833
Mhz processor is being 'overclocked' to 2200 MHz instead of it being a
'legitimate' 2200 MHz processor.



If you only change the Processor multiplier, that will have very little
effect on the overall speed of your system, so why would an overclocker even
bother?


Besides that comment being incorrect, it's also irrelevant as your claim
about 'overclocking' had no qualifier of 'big effect' overclocking, or
anything else for that matter.

But I'll humor you. You want to know how that would affect every
component in the computer. Simple, really. If the CPU speeds up, the other
components don't SLOW DOWN.


Why even say such a silly thing when no one even hinted that something
might 'slow down'.

The fact of the matter is, in the examples I gave, every other component in
the system is operating with precisely it's specified 'official' parameters.

Think of it like a train with the CPU being the
engine.


You should really stop trying to make analogies because the one's you pick
are ridiculous.

If the CPU speeds up, the other components do also, or some bad
things happen. -Dave


In the examples I gave, the 'chu-chu' is precisely the same speed 'chu-chu'
you recommend people buy instead of achieve by overclocking so if the
overclocked 'chu-chu' is going to drag them all to their doom then the
'chu-chu' you recommend people buy will too.


 




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