Canon Pixma IP4000 cartridge query

"colinco" wrote in message
...
In article PC Medic says...
If your 'compatibles' have the prism then they are 'Refills' not
compatibles
as the cartridge design with the prism is patented by Canon and not
licensed
to anyone.

there are carts with modified design to sidestep the patent issue

I have yet to see these, care to name a brand so I can check them out?

PC Medic wrote:
"Michael Johnson, PE" wrote in message
...

PC Medic wrote:

"MB_" wrote in message
...


We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:

Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will the
printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on the
computer?

Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black cartridges:
BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between the two. I assume
if one goes, we have to replace it with the same cartridge. Correct?

Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far
cheaper compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?



The iP4000 uses a combination optical and dot count sensor system for ink
low and ink out warnings. It will first warn you when the tank is getting
low and then when the cartridge is empty a second message will indicate
this and the printing will stop until the cartridge is replaced. You
actually get quite a number of pages/photos on a 'Low' tank.

The two black tanks are to accommodate sharp black text as well as true
black gradient in photos.

My recommendation is stay with the Canon brands. While the inks may cost
a bit more, the output is more accurate without playing with driver
settings and wasting paper to get it right. Third party carts also do not
contain the prism required for the ink sensor and refilling your own
while often successful can also lead to poor image quality and other
issues if not done right.

The BCI-6 compatibles that I use have the prism and work just like the OEM
pieces for monitoring ink. I also think you're giving the 4000 printer
more sophistication that it has for monitoring ink level. I don't think
it counts dots and solely relies on the prism reading which isn't the most
accurate. But then it really doesn't matter that much because the
cartridges are clear and the ink level can be determined by visual
inspection.


If your 'compatibles' have the prism then they are 'Refills' not compatibles
as the cartridge design with the prism is patented by Canon and not licensed
to anyone. I also am giving no more credit than is due with regards to the
iP4000 ink level monitoring. I know you "don't think it counts dots" at any
point, but I happen to 'know' other wise. While you are correct that the
carts are clear and you certainly could visually inspect them each time you
wanted to know the ink level, this certainly would not be convenient and
would waste ink.

The compatible carts I use have a prism. That is a fact that I "know"
too. You are the first person I have seen to state Canon printers
"count the dots" for use in showing ink levels. Maybe others here can
confirm this or you can give a source to back up the claim. If it did
then an initially half filled cart wouldn't show as near empty when it
really was. Also, removing a cart to inspect it does not waste ink. I
can remove it and replace it without spilling a drop and this operation
doesn't require a head alignment or cleaning procedure. Also, I don't
inspect them every time I want to know the ink level - only when the
"Low Ink" warning has been indicated for a cart.

In article PC Medic says...

"colinco" wrote in message
...
In article PC Medic says...
If your 'compatibles' have the prism then they are 'Refills' not
compatibles
as the cartridge design with the prism is patented by Canon and not
licensed
to anyone.

there are carts with modified design to sidestep the patent issue

I have yet to see these, care to name a brand so I can check them out?




For info only, never used them

" You may notice the compatible cartridge varies in its design when
compared to the original branded product. The Jet Tec compatible
cartridge is different because the design has been altered to ensure the
compatible cartridge does not infringe patents owned by the original
manufacturer. These changes will NOT affect the quality of the
printout."

PC Medic wrote:
"Taliesyn" wrote in message
...

PC Medic wrote:

"MB_" wrote in message
...


We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:

Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will the
printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on the
computer?

Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black cartridges:
BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between the two. I assume
if one goes, we have to replace it with the same cartridge. Correct?

Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far
cheaper compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?



The iP4000 uses a combination optical and dot count sensor system for ink
low and ink out warnings.

No point in counting dots with a prism on every cartridge. ALL cartridges
(any brand) that I've ever used, have always had the prism
(just plastic, aint' it?).



Certainly is and were you aware of how the printer functions you would know
that.
You have of course noticed two seperate chambers in these cartridges have
you not? Perhaps you would care to explain your design in how the printer
will not waste the significant amount of ink in the filter side of the
cartridge simply because the prism in the liquid only chamber is now
exposed?

Huh? Check the Internet on how the prism functions in the
cartridge.

And if ALL your cartridges have prisms, you are buying genuine Canon inks or
refills, not different brand cartridges, just different brand ink inside.


First of all you cannot buy Canon refills, only new Canon cartridges.
Canon doesn't believe in refilling. And I've never ever found a
dealer stuffing their ink into second-hand, used Canon cartridges.
Who would be the idiot to go to all that trouble of procuring used,
empty Canon cartridges! The people who sell Canon cartridges use
only brand new, factory fresh cartrides, and not made by Canon.
And they are generally of a much cheaper standard. But they all
have a prism!!!

It will first warn you when the tank is getting low and then when the
cartridge is empty a second message will indicate this and the printing
will stop until the cartridge is replaced.

I don't know if it stops printing. I doubt it. I've never heard anyone
in this group mention that before.



I assure you that if you go to print and the ink is empty the printer status
monitor should pop-up a window showing that an ink is empty.

Yes, I've seen that. That's your last warning. But it's only a warning,
it doesn't take the "key out of the ignition".

Now of course you can force it to start again, but would not be advisable.


Agreed.


The two black tanks are to accommodate sharp black text as well as true
black gradient in photos.

The large black is only used for text, the smaller for photos.


So you word it differently... does not change what I stated.

No, I worded it correctly.

Yes, indeed it changes what you stated! According to you they are used
for text and photos with no mention that each particular cartridge has
only one function. According to me, the large is for text, the small is
for photos. That is very different!

We could get technical and say BCI-3eBk is for text and BCI6Bk is for
photos.

That's what the original poster wanted to know. Why reply with basically
what he already knew???

But then that would not be 100% accurate either as there are exceptions
based on application, and media type setting in driver.

He wanted the general rule, not the odd exception.


My recommendation is stay with the Canon brands. While the inks may cost
a bit more,

A bit? Two complete sets cost the same as an iP4000 in Canada. I can
refill for $5 a set.



Now wait, are you refilling or buying 3rd party cartridges. Lets keep your
story straight.

If I sometimes speak of refilling and sometimes of "3rd party
cartridges', that's because I run two printers - one with new
3rd party cartridges (not made by Canon and they have a prism ;-) and
the other I refill with bulk ink.

I am not going into the whole cost analysis thing. It has been covered too
many times in this and other forums.


the output is more accurate without playing with driver settings and
wasting paper to get it right.

The difference, if there is one, depending on brand used, is negligible.
Regular paper costs almost nothing. Even my best photo paper can be had
for an estimated 7 cents a 4x6 sheet, and the ink costs nothing.


Negligible to you perhaps. I can assure you it is significant to others.


"They" would be the minority in the millions of satisfied people who buy
3rd party inks and cartridges. In the ten years (approximately) that
I've been using 3rd party inks/cartridges, I've never been forced to
make any color corrections. So I don't see it as a stumbling block to
great printing for anyone.


Third party carts also do not contain the prism required for the ink
sensor

Yes, they do. No cartridge dealer would (or should) be so stupid as sell
cartridges without the all important prism in protecting the print head
(printing without ink can burn the print head, so I hear). I doubt any
dealers want the responsibility of burning their customers' printers.


I see these 3rd party carts all the time without the prism. So your
statement is blatently incorrect. You may want to be sure you are not
confusing ink with cartridges also.


Well, as stupid as I am for being led on... I looked at four brands
of cartridges (only one made by Canon) in my repertoire, turning over
the yellow ones (most translucent) and lo and behold!... they all have a
prism, the little triangular piece of plastic at the bottom of the
cartridge. Okay, so I am sane and I do know what I'm talking about, and
my story is blatantly correct as posted. Perhaps I shop at better
dealers ;-)


and refilling your own while often successful

Easiest cartridges to fill and little or no worries about air bubbles
blocking flow after you've filled them. I've never, never, ever, had a
cartridge that wouldn't flow right off the bat. Also, these cartridges
should never leak from after refilling like the typical Lexmark and HP
cartridges. If they do leak from the exit hole, you haven't sealed the
fill hole properly. Simple as that.



And others have not been so lucky as you.

I fail to see where the element of luck is involved if you follow
simple instructions. On the other hand, if you're not mechanically
inclined, as I'm beginning to think, I could see problems.

Note I said it is 'often
successful" as unlike you I am aware there are two sides to this issue.
While they should flow, they do not always, while they should not leak, they
sometimes do.


I refill my two printers and my sister's Canon. So I've probably filled
at least 50 cartridges so far, and they all worked first first time
trying. I can't be "lucky" 50 times!!! Give me a break. If they leak
it's not because refilling is a sometimes thing, it's because I did a
bum job sealing it, simple as that.


can also lead to poor image quality and other issues if not done right.


Not true. There is no real wrong way of filling. As long as you manage
to fill the suggested chamber with ink and seal it air tight after,
that's the whole 'ball game'. That's ALL you need to know. Simply follow
the given instructions (or choose your own from the internet) and fill
with quality refill ink specifically made for your printer type, never
anything labeled "universal" or "works in all printers". These are risky
and can possibly trash your print head, or simply give unsatisfactory
printouts. My preference is any dealer that sells ink made by Formulabs.

-Taliesyn


You contradict yourself here, so I will not add to it.


Where, oh please?

"Universal" and "works in all printers" inks should be BANNED.
That's my thought. These inks are not (fully) compatible with ANY
printer and cartridge type!

-Taliesyn

"Michael Johnson, PE" wrote in message
news
PC Medic wrote:
"Michael Johnson, PE" wrote in message
...

PC Medic wrote:

"MB_" wrote in message
...


We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:

Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will
the printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on the
computer?

Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black cartridges:
BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between the two. I
assume if one goes, we have to replace it with the same cartridge.
Correct?

Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far
cheaper compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?



The iP4000 uses a combination optical and dot count sensor system for
ink low and ink out warnings. It will first warn you when the tank is
getting low and then when the cartridge is empty a second message will
indicate this and the printing will stop until the cartridge is
replaced. You actually get quite a number of pages/photos on a 'Low'
tank.

The two black tanks are to accommodate sharp black text as well as true
black gradient in photos.

My recommendation is stay with the Canon brands. While the inks may cost
a bit more, the output is more accurate without playing with driver
settings and wasting paper to get it right. Third party carts also do
not contain the prism required for the ink sensor and refilling your own
while often successful can also lead to poor image quality and other
issues if not done right.

The BCI-6 compatibles that I use have the prism and work just like the
OEM pieces for monitoring ink. I also think you're giving the 4000
printer more sophistication that it has for monitoring ink level. I
don't think it counts dots and solely relies on the prism reading which
isn't the most accurate. But then it really doesn't matter that much
because the cartridges are clear and the ink level can be determined by
visual inspection.


If your 'compatibles' have the prism then they are 'Refills' not
compatibles as the cartridge design with the prism is patented by Canon
and not licensed to anyone. I also am giving no more credit than is due
with regards to the iP4000 ink level monitoring. I know you "don't think
it counts dots" at any point, but I happen to 'know' other wise. While
you are correct that the carts are clear and you certainly could visually
inspect them each time you wanted to know the ink level, this certainly
would not be convenient and would waste ink.

The compatible carts I use have a prism. That is a fact that I "know"
too. You are the first person I have seen to state Canon printers "count
the dots" for use in showing ink levels. Maybe others here can confirm
this or you can give a source to back up the claim. If it did then an
initially half filled cart wouldn't show as near empty when it really was.
Also, removing a cart to inspect it does not waste ink. I can remove it
and replace it without spilling a drop and this operation doesn't require
a head alignment or cleaning procedure. Also, I don't inspect them every
time I want to know the ink level - only when the "Low Ink" warning has
been indicated for a cart.

I have seen many carts and have yet to see these, guess I have just been
lucky.
Canon Service Manuals are one place you will find this information about dot
count. Many past threads here in the newsgroup and other forums are other
places it is readily available. As for your further statement, Remove a cart
from your printer and place an 'empty' cart in its place and close the
printer. This will (of course) result in an ink out error for that color.
Now open the printer and place a half full cart (or at least where prism is
completely covered) in that same slot. Close the cover and after
initializing, the status monitor will show a full tank. Why, because the
light from the optical sensor no longer reflects back through the prism, so
it logically assumes you placed a full cart in to replace the empty. There
are three detected levels Full, Low and Empty.

And yes, you do use ink when you remove a cart to inspect it. Normal
operation of the printer when you open the cover and reseat a tank is to do
a cleaning on the printhead which uses (while very small) some ink.
Continuously checking ink levels visually as you suggest would in fact
result in loss of ink. If the low ink level has been indicated, why on earth
would you need to open the top and remove the tank to inspect the level????

"Taliesyn" wrote in message
...
PC Medic wrote:
"Taliesyn" wrote in message
...

PC Medic wrote:

"MB_" wrote in message
...


We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:

Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will
the printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on the
computer?

Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black cartridges:
BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between the two. I
assume if one goes, we have to replace it with the same cartridge.
Correct?

Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far
cheaper compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?



The iP4000 uses a combination optical and dot count sensor system for
ink low and ink out warnings.

No point in counting dots with a prism on every cartridge. ALL cartridges
(any brand) that I've ever used, have always had the prism
(just plastic, aint' it?).



Certainly is and were you aware of how the printer functions you would
know that.
You have of course noticed two seperate chambers in these cartridges have
you not? Perhaps you would care to explain your design in how the printer
will not waste the significant amount of ink in the filter side of the
cartridge simply because the prism in the liquid only chamber is now
exposed?

Huh? Check the Internet on how the prism functions in the
cartridge.


Perhaps you should do just that.
No ink covering prism, low ink warning is triggered and ROM begins dot count
till ink out status is reached.

And if ALL your cartridges have prisms, you are buying genuine Canon inks
or refills, not different brand cartridges, just different brand ink
inside.


First of all you cannot buy Canon refills, only new Canon cartridges.
Canon doesn't believe in refilling. And I've never ever found a
dealer stuffing their ink into second-hand, used Canon cartridges.
Who would be the idiot to go to all that trouble of procuring used,
empty Canon cartridges! The people who sell Canon cartridges use
only brand new, factory fresh cartrides, and not made by Canon.
And they are generally of a much cheaper standard. But they all
have a prism!!!

It will first warn you when the tank is getting low and then when the
cartridge is empty a second message will indicate this and the printing
will stop until the cartridge is replaced.

I don't know if it stops printing. I doubt it. I've never heard anyone
in this group mention that before.



I assure you that if you go to print and the ink is empty the printer
status monitor should pop-up a window showing that an ink is empty.

Yes, I've seen that. That's your last warning. But it's only a warning,
it doesn't take the "key out of the ignition".


It does stop the print process unless you the end user manually circumvent
it leading to possible damage to the printhead from continuous printing on
empty tank/nozzles.

Now of course you can force it to start again, but would not be
advisable.


Agreed.


The two black tanks are to accommodate sharp black text as well as true
black gradient in photos.

The large black is only used for text, the smaller for photos.


So you word it differently... does not change what I stated.

No, I worded it correctly.


If it makes you feel better.

Yes, indeed it changes what you stated! According to you they are used
for text and photos with no mention that each particular cartridge has
only one function. According to me, the large is for text, the small is
for photos. That is very different!


But not always the case and for that reason, not entirely correct.
Application and driver settings can alter this and is frequently done by
unsuspecting users.


We could get technical and say BCI-3eBk is for text and BCI6Bk is for
photos.

That's what the original poster wanted to know. Why reply with basically
what he already knew???


Because he asked for clarification. Providing 'HALF' an answer is not what I
do.
This leads to later statements of, "but you told me before that..."


But then that would not be 100% accurate either as there are exceptions
based on application, and media type setting in driver.

He wanted the general rule, not the odd exception.


No, he already had the general idea. and this exception is not as rare as
you may think.


My recommendation is stay with the Canon brands. While the inks may cost
a bit more,

A bit? Two complete sets cost the same as an iP4000 in Canada. I can
refill for $5 a set.



Now wait, are you refilling or buying 3rd party cartridges. Lets keep
your story straight.

If I sometimes speak of refilling and sometimes of "3rd party cartridges',
that's because I run two printers - one with new
3rd party cartridges (not made by Canon and they have a prism ;-) and the
other I refill with bulk ink.


not interchangeable in this particualr case.

I am not going into the whole cost analysis thing. It has been covered
too many times in this and other forums.


the output is more accurate without playing with driver settings and
wasting paper to get it right.

The difference, if there is one, depending on brand used, is negligible.
Regular paper costs almost nothing. Even my best photo paper can be had
for an estimated 7 cents a 4x6 sheet, and the ink costs nothing.


Negligible to you perhaps. I can assure you it is significant to others.


"They" would be the minority in the millions of satisfied people who buy
3rd party inks and cartridges. In the ten years (approximately) that I've
been using 3rd party inks/cartridges, I've never been forced to make any
color corrections. So I don't see it as a stumbling block to great
printing for anyone.


But this 'minority' you refer to are the ones that come to groups like this
asking why.
To provide half answers is a dis-service to them and the manufacture of the
product as you are leading the less informed to believe things that are not
entirely true. Remember,many of these folks take what they read here as the
true fact (which is scary when I think of some of the crap I see posted)


Third party carts also do not contain the prism required for the ink
sensor

Yes, they do. No cartridge dealer would (or should) be so stupid as sell
cartridges without the all important prism in protecting the print head
(printing without ink can burn the print head, so I hear). I doubt any
dealers want the responsibility of burning their customers' printers.


I see these 3rd party carts all the time without the prism. So your
statement is blatently incorrect. You may want to be sure you are not
confusing ink with cartridges also.


Well, as stupid as I am for being led on... I looked at four brands
of cartridges (only one made by Canon) in my repertoire, turning over
the yellow ones (most translucent) and lo and behold!... they all have a
prism, the little triangular piece of plastic at the bottom of the
cartridge. Okay, so I am sane and I do know what I'm talking about, and
my story is blatantly correct as posted. Perhaps I shop at better dealers
;-)


Perhaps your carts are made by one of the many that purchase and reuse
empties to refill with there own ink.
I have seen many of these and they do a damn good job of placing a new cap
and all on the cart to appear as it is manufactured new by them. Refilling
them in this manner is one way they are able to cut costs.


and refilling your own while often successful

Easiest cartridges to fill and little or no worries about air bubbles
blocking flow after you've filled them. I've never, never, ever, had a
cartridge that wouldn't flow right off the bat. Also, these cartridges
should never leak from after refilling like the typical Lexmark and HP
cartridges. If they do leak from the exit hole, you haven't sealed the
fill hole properly. Simple as that.



And others have not been so lucky as you.

I fail to see where the element of luck is involved if you follow
simple instructions. On the other hand, if you're not mechanically
inclined, as I'm beginning to think, I could see problems.


And many out there are not. What may be easy for you, is rocket science to
another.
Ever had to deal with someone that has jammed there tanks in the printer
upside down? Can't figure out how to get the printhead in because they have
not removed the cap? Or torn the printed circuit of the back because the
instructions said ' Be sure to remove all tape?. I have seen it all and more
in my shop.

Note I said it is 'often successful" as unlike you I am aware there are
two sides to this issue. While they should flow, they do not always,
while they should not leak, they sometimes do.


I refill my two printers and my sister's Canon. So I've probably filled
at least 50 cartridges so far, and they all worked first first time
trying. I can't be "lucky" 50 times!!! Give me a break. If they leak
it's not because refilling is a sometimes thing, it's because I did a
bum job sealing it, simple as that.


See above



can also lead to poor image quality and other issues if not done right.


Not true. There is no real wrong way of filling. As long as you manage
to fill the suggested chamber with ink and seal it air tight after,
that's the whole 'ball game'. That's ALL you need to know. Simply follow
the given instructions (or choose your own from the internet) and fill
with quality refill ink specifically made for your printer type, never
anything labeled "universal" or "works in all printers". These are risky
and can possibly trash your print head, or simply give unsatisfactory
printouts. My preference is any dealer that sells ink made by Formulabs.

-Taliesyn


You contradict yourself here, so I will not add to it.


Where, oh please?

"Universal" and "works in all printers" inks should be BANNED.
That's my thought. These inks are not (fully) compatible with ANY printer
and cartridge type!


You say there is no wrong way and then point out the wrong ways. All of
which I have seen many many times.

PC Medic wrote:
"Michael Johnson, PE" wrote in message
news
PC Medic wrote:

"Michael Johnson, PE" wrote in message
...


PC Medic wrote:


"MB_" wrote in message
...



We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:

Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will
the printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on the
computer?

Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black cartridges:
BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between the two. I
assume if one goes, we have to replace it with the same cartridge.
Correct?

Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far
cheaper compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?



The iP4000 uses a combination optical and dot count sensor system for
ink low and ink out warnings. It will first warn you when the tank is
getting low and then when the cartridge is empty a second message will
indicate this and the printing will stop until the cartridge is
replaced. You actually get quite a number of pages/photos on a 'Low'
tank.

The two black tanks are to accommodate sharp black text as well as true
black gradient in photos.

My recommendation is stay with the Canon brands. While the inks may cost
a bit more, the output is more accurate without playing with driver
settings and wasting paper to get it right. Third party carts also do
not contain the prism required for the ink sensor and refilling your own
while often successful can also lead to poor image quality and other
issues if not done right.

The BCI-6 compatibles that I use have the prism and work just like the
OEM pieces for monitoring ink. I also think you're giving the 4000
printer more sophistication that it has for monitoring ink level. I
don't think it counts dots and solely relies on the prism reading which
isn't the most accurate. But then it really doesn't matter that much
because the cartridges are clear and the ink level can be determined by
visual inspection.


If your 'compatibles' have the prism then they are 'Refills' not
compatibles as the cartridge design with the prism is patented by Canon
and not licensed to anyone. I also am giving no more credit than is due
with regards to the iP4000 ink level monitoring. I know you "don't think
it counts dots" at any point, but I happen to 'know' other wise. While
you are correct that the carts are clear and you certainly could visually
inspect them each time you wanted to know the ink level, this certainly
would not be convenient and would waste ink.

The compatible carts I use have a prism. That is a fact that I "know"
too. You are the first person I have seen to state Canon printers "count
the dots" for use in showing ink levels. Maybe others here can confirm
this or you can give a source to back up the claim. If it did then an
initially half filled cart wouldn't show as near empty when it really was.
Also, removing a cart to inspect it does not waste ink. I can remove it
and replace it without spilling a drop and this operation doesn't require
a head alignment or cleaning procedure. Also, I don't inspect them every
time I want to know the ink level - only when the "Low Ink" warning has
been indicated for a cart.


I have seen many carts and have yet to see these, guess I have just been
lucky.

I've seen many carts of many brands and have never seen one without the
prism.

Canon Service Manuals are one place you will find this information about dot
count. Many past threads here in the newsgroup and other forums are other
places it is readily available.

Counting dots and counting dots for determining ink level are two
different statements. If it uses dot counts to determin ink levels then
the printer shouldn't know when a 1/2 or 3/4 filled cartridge was
installed and would therefor not indicate levels accurately when a
cartridge is empty since it hadn't sprayed the prerequisit number of
dots. It seems to me that the Canon printers rely on the prism reading
to determin ink levels. How about a link to one of those newsgroup
threads or forums?

As for your further statement, Remove a cart
from your printer and place an 'empty' cart in its place and close the
printer. This will (of course) result in an ink out error for that color.
Now open the printer and place a half full cart (or at least where prism is
completely covered) in that same slot. Close the cover and after
initializing, the status monitor will show a full tank. Why, because the
light from the optical sensor no longer reflects back through the prism, so
it logically assumes you placed a full cart in to replace the empty. There
are three detected levels Full, Low and Empty.

I could remove a low cart and stick it back into the head carriage and
it wouldn't know what had just happened. The carriage moves to the
center position when the cover is opened and I doubt it has the ability
to know what cart was removed and immeadiately reinstalled.

And yes, you do use ink when you remove a cart to inspect it. Normal
operation of the printer when you open the cover and reseat a tank is to do
a cleaning on the printhead which uses (while very small) some ink.
Continuously checking ink levels visually as you suggest would in fact
result in loss of ink. If the low ink level has been indicated, why on earth
would you need to open the top and remove the tank to inspect the level????

It uses a little ink every time it is powered on and off too. I doubt a
cart check uses much ink. Also, I don't check a cart's level until the
low ink warning shows. I never said I contunuously check them.

PC Medic wrote:

"Taliesyn" wrote in message
...

Well, as stupid as I am for being led on... I looked at four brands
of cartridges (only one made by Canon) in my repertoire, turning over
the yellow ones (most translucent) and lo and behold!... they all have a
prism, the little triangular piece of plastic at the bottom of the
cartridge. Okay, so I am sane and I do know what I'm talking about, and
my story is blatantly correct as posted. Perhaps I shop at better dealers
;-)



Perhaps your carts are made by one of the many that purchase and reuse
empties to refill with there own ink.

I have seen many of these and they do a damn good job of placing a new cap
and all on the cart to appear as it is manufactured new by them. Refilling
them in this manner is one way they are able to cut costs.



First you can't seem to locate the prism and then all cartridges
with a prism look the same to you.

Anyone with even half a brain can see the difference between a Canon
made cartridge and a (non-Canon) generic. The 3 others I have are made
of rather cheap-looking plastic, sloppily finished, yet all slightly
different from each other in design, material, and finish. In other
words, they were all made by different manufacturers. I have another
one, a rather nice one that I bought new (virgin). Empty. They call them
"blanks". The sponge is pure white. Never used.... Did I mention they
were new? Yes, and they come with the invisible prism that you can't
seem to locate with a radar detector. These have the rather neat idea of
having a built in plastic screw for the fill hole at the top. Obviously,
it's not a Canon made cartridge. Alotofthing also sells never used brand
new cartridges. These are different from my other blanks. They have
small square orange caps with 4 hooks that latch onto 4 small holes
(indentations) on the sides of the cartridges. Very handy, no need for
rubber bands to hold the cap on. They're quite nice too. And if you tell
me all these "blanks" are just reworked, doctored, new clean sponge
installed, Canon cartridges, I will either scream, commit suicide, pull
out my remaining hair, or run naked down the street hollering "I can't
take this guy any longer, he's driving me insane!"

-Taliesyn

"Michael Johnson, PE" wrote in message
...

Counting dots and counting dots for determining ink level are two
different statements. If it uses dot counts to determin ink levels then
the printer shouldn't know when a 1/2 or 3/4 filled cartridge was
installed and would therefor not indicate levels accurately when a
cartridge is empty since it hadn't sprayed the prerequisit number of dots.
It seems to me that the Canon printers rely on the prism reading to
determin ink levels. How about a link to one of those newsgroup threads
or forums?


For the sake of saving bandwidth and not repeating myself for those that
comprehend I have explained this to you several times. The dot count does
not start until AFTER the prism is exposed and low ink level is indicated.
It is not active during a 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 5/8 or any other level prior to
that. The ink level syatem also only indicates full, low and empty and none
of the fractions you wish to keep tossing around.
I know how it works, have tried to explain it to you, but you seem set on
believiving what you want. Try google after you figure it out or pay to get
yourself some service manulas and learn about the products you are trying to
act so knowlegable about.



As for your further statement, Remove a cart from your printer and place
an 'empty' cart in its place and close the printer. This will (of course)
result in an ink out error for that color. Now open the printer and place
a half full cart (or at least where prism is completely covered) in that
same slot. Close the cover and after initializing, the status monitor
will show a full tank. Why, because the light from the optical sensor no
longer reflects back through the prism, so it logically assumes you
placed a full cart in to replace the empty. There are three detected
levels Full, Low and Empty.

I could remove a low cart and stick it back into the head carriage and it
wouldn't know what had just happened. The carriage moves to the center
position when the cover is opened and I doubt it has the ability to know
what cart was removed and immeadiately reinstalled.


That is why I said place an empty cart in there. When you open the cover it
assumes a cartridge change and the optical sensor checks ink levels when the
cover is again closed. It is quite simple. I thought you would have picked
up on this by now.


And yes, you do use ink when you remove a cart to inspect it. Normal
operation of the printer when you open the cover and reseat a tank is to
do a cleaning on the printhead which uses (while very small) some ink.
Continuously checking ink levels visually as you suggest would in fact
result in loss of ink. If the low ink level has been indicated, why on
earth would you need to open the top and remove the tank to inspect the
level????

It uses a little ink every time it is powered on and off too. I doubt a
cart check uses much ink. Also, I don't check a cart's level until the
low ink warning shows. I never said I contunuously check them.

I did not say it used a lot and in fact specifically stated it used a small
amount. You on the other hand stated it used NONE which is incorrect.

"Taliesyn" wrote in message
...
PC Medic wrote:

"Taliesyn" wrote in message
...

Well, as stupid as I am for being led on... I looked at four brands
of cartridges (only one made by Canon) in my repertoire, turning over
the yellow ones (most translucent) and lo and behold!... they all have a
prism, the little triangular piece of plastic at the bottom of the
cartridge. Okay, so I am sane and I do know what I'm talking about, and
my story is blatantly correct as posted. Perhaps I shop at better dealers
;-)



Perhaps your carts are made by one of the many that purchase and reuse
empties to refill with there own ink.

I have seen many of these and they do a damn good job of placing a new
cap and all on the cart to appear as it is manufactured new by them.
Refilling them in this manner is one way they are able to cut costs.



First you can't seem to locate the prism and then all cartridges
with a prism look the same to you.

Anyone with even half a brain can see the difference between a Canon
made cartridge and a (non-Canon) generic. The 3 others I have are made
of rather cheap-looking plastic, sloppily finished, yet all slightly
different from each other in design, material, and finish. In other
words, they were all made by different manufacturers. I have another
one, a rather nice one that I bought new (virgin). Empty. They call them
"blanks". The sponge is pure white. Never used.... Did I mention they
were new? Yes, and they come with the invisible prism that you can't
seem to locate with a radar detector. These have the rather neat idea of
having a built in plastic screw for the fill hole at the top. Obviously,
it's not a Canon made cartridge. Alotofthing also sells never used brand
new cartridges. These are different from my other blanks. They have
small square orange caps with 4 hooks that latch onto 4 small holes
(indentations) on the sides of the cartridges. Very handy, no need for
rubber bands to hold the cap on. They're quite nice too. And if you tell
me all these "blanks" are just reworked, doctored, new clean sponge
installed, Canon cartridges, I will either scream, commit suicide, pull
out my remaining hair, or run naked down the street hollering "I can't
take this guy any longer, he's driving me insane!"


You promise?!