Canon Pixma IP4000 cartridge query

PC Medic wrote:
"MB_" wrote in message
...

We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:

Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will the
printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on the
computer?

Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black cartridges:
BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between the two. I assume
if one goes, we have to replace it with the same cartridge. Correct?

Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far cheaper
compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?



The iP4000 uses a combination optical and dot count sensor system for ink
low and ink out warnings.

No point in counting dots with a prism on every cartridge. ALL
cartridges (any brand) that I've ever used, have always had the prism
(just plastic, aint' it?).

It will first warn you when the tank is getting
low and then when the cartridge is empty a second message will indicate this
and the printing will stop until the cartridge is replaced.

I don't know if it stops printing. I doubt it. I've never heard anyone
in this group mention that before.


The two black tanks are to accommodate sharp black text as well as true
black gradient in photos.

The large black is only used for text, the smaller for photos.

My recommendation is stay with the Canon brands. While the inks may cost a
bit more,

A bit? Two complete sets cost the same as an iP4000 in Canada. I can
refill for $5 a set.

the output is more accurate without playing with driver settings
and wasting paper to get it right.

The difference, if there is one, depending on brand used, is negligible.
Regular paper costs almost nothing. Even my best photo paper can be had
for an estimated 7 cents a 4x6 sheet, and the ink costs nothing.

Third party carts also do not contain the
prism required for the ink sensor

Yes, they do. No cartridge dealer would (or should) be so stupid as sell
cartridges without the all important prism in protecting the print head
(printing without ink can burn the print head, so I hear). I doubt any
dealers want the responsibility of burning their customers' printers.

and refilling your own while often successful

Easiest cartridges to fill and little or no worries about air bubbles
blocking flow after you've filled them. I've never, never, ever, had a
cartridge that wouldn't flow right off the bat. Also, these cartridges
should never leak from after refilling like the typical Lexmark and HP
cartridges. If they do leak from the exit hole, you haven't sealed the
fill hole properly. Simple as that.

can also lead to poor image quality and other issues if not done
right.


Not true. There is no real wrong way of filling. As long as you manage
to fill the suggested chamber with ink and seal it air tight after,
that's the whole 'ball game'. That's ALL you need to know. Simply follow
the given instructions (or choose your own from the internet) and fill
with quality refill ink specifically made for your printer type, never
anything labeled "universal" or "works in all printers". These are risky
and can possibly trash your print head, or simply give unsatisfactory
printouts. My preference is any dealer that sells ink made by Formulabs.

-Taliesyn

In article Taliesyn says...
My preference is any dealer that sells ink made by Formulabs.



Informal fade test here
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=12215372

I've been following that thread and I while it is interesting, there are
some inconsistencies. Example, first he states that Formulabs ink is one of
the favorites, then later he slams it. From what I saw of the samples, none
of them seemed any good. The test samples were made using cotton swabs and
that could also have a direct bearing upon the amount of ink deposited on
the paper. Which brands got too much or too little? FWIW. I've been using
Formulabs ink since late 2002 on a variety of papers and with several
different Canon printers. I don't care how my prints are stored, handled or
displayed since any damaged ones can be easily reprinted. However, prints in
excess of two years old have not shown any detectible fading and this
includes ones taped to the refrigerator and ones in my office where the
lights are on 24/7. I've also reprinted some of the older works for
comparison purposes and I could not see any difference. The experiences I've
had with this ink is not unlike that of numerous other posters who've
written about Formulabs ink. Overall, I'd say the user satisfaction with
this brand is very high. Additionally what many users fail to understand is
that fading is dependent upon more than just the ink. Each brand of ink
performs differently with various papers. Some papers are more prone to
fading regardless of the ink brand. Microporous (instant dry) is reported to
fade more rapidly than swellable polymer papers since the SP coating
encapsulates the ink thereby reducing it's exposure to the atmosphere. The
downside to SP papers (i.e. Kodak) is a complete lack of moisture resistance
compared to the microporous papers which can be held under running water
without damage.
--
Ron Cohen

"colinco" wrote in message
...
In article Taliesyn says...
My preference is any dealer that sells ink made by Formulabs.



Informal fade test here
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=12215372

Where did you get those carts and what brand are they? Where do you get
your ink and what brand is it? Any head clogs? How often do you
print? How about fading? Are the colors the same as Canon?

I am afraid of a head clog or a big mess so I begrudgingly use Canon
cart replacements. I also want the max in permanence and true color. I
also want to print b&w without changing carts.

Michael Johnson, PE wrote:

PC Medic wrote:

"MB_" wrote in message
...

We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:

Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will
the printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on
the computer?

Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black
cartridges: BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between
the two. I assume if one goes, we have to replace it with the same
cartridge. Correct?

Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far
cheaper compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?



The iP4000 uses a combination optical and dot count sensor system for
ink low and ink out warnings. It will first warn you when the tank is
getting low and then when the cartridge is empty a second message
will indicate this and the printing will stop until the cartridge is
replaced. You actually get quite a number of pages/photos on a 'Low'
tank.

The two black tanks are to accommodate sharp black text as well as
true black gradient in photos.

My recommendation is stay with the Canon brands. While the inks may
cost a bit more, the output is more accurate without playing with
driver settings and wasting paper to get it right. Third party carts
also do not contain the prism required for the ink sensor and
refilling your own while often successful can also lead to poor image
quality and other issues if not done right.


The BCI-6 compatibles that I use have the prism and work just like the
OEM pieces for monitoring ink. I also think you're giving the 4000
printer more sophistication that it has for monitoring ink level. I
don't think it counts dots and solely relies on the prism reading
which isn't the most accurate. But then it really doesn't matter that
much because the cartridges are clear and the ink level can be
determined by visual inspection.

Taliesyn, you are right on the mark with your comments. I agree completely.
--
Ron Cohen

"Taliesyn" wrote in message
...
PC Medic wrote:
"MB_" wrote in message
...

We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:

Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will the
printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on the
computer?

Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black cartridges:
BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between the two. I assume
if one goes, we have to replace it with the same cartridge. Correct?

Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far
cheaper compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?



The iP4000 uses a combination optical and dot count sensor system for ink
low and ink out warnings.

No point in counting dots with a prism on every cartridge. ALL cartridges
(any brand) that I've ever used, have always had the prism
(just plastic, aint' it?).

It will first warn you when the tank is getting low and then when the
cartridge is empty a second message will indicate this and the printing
will stop until the cartridge is replaced.

I don't know if it stops printing. I doubt it. I've never heard anyone
in this group mention that before.


The two black tanks are to accommodate sharp black text as well as true
black gradient in photos.

The large black is only used for text, the smaller for photos.

My recommendation is stay with the Canon brands. While the inks may cost
a bit more,

A bit? Two complete sets cost the same as an iP4000 in Canada. I can
refill for $5 a set.

the output is more accurate without playing with driver settings and
wasting paper to get it right.

The difference, if there is one, depending on brand used, is negligible.
Regular paper costs almost nothing. Even my best photo paper can be had
for an estimated 7 cents a 4x6 sheet, and the ink costs nothing.

Third party carts also do not contain the prism required for the ink
sensor

Yes, they do. No cartridge dealer would (or should) be so stupid as sell
cartridges without the all important prism in protecting the print head
(printing without ink can burn the print head, so I hear). I doubt any
dealers want the responsibility of burning their customers' printers.

and refilling your own while often successful

Easiest cartridges to fill and little or no worries about air bubbles
blocking flow after you've filled them. I've never, never, ever, had a
cartridge that wouldn't flow right off the bat. Also, these cartridges
should never leak from after refilling like the typical Lexmark and HP
cartridges. If they do leak from the exit hole, you haven't sealed the
fill hole properly. Simple as that.

can also lead to poor image quality and other issues if not done right.


Not true. There is no real wrong way of filling. As long as you manage
to fill the suggested chamber with ink and seal it air tight after,
that's the whole 'ball game'. That's ALL you need to know. Simply follow
the given instructions (or choose your own from the internet) and fill
with quality refill ink specifically made for your printer type, never
anything labeled "universal" or "works in all printers". These are risky
and can possibly trash your print head, or simply give unsatisfactory
printouts. My preference is any dealer that sells ink made by Formulabs.

-Taliesyn

Here is my response to a recent post asking a similar question:

"It is an ebay seller. I suggest sending them a message at
and placing an order for the exact number and
color of cartridges you need. Also, you can still pay through Paypal. I
rarely need the same number of each color since our photo printer use
six ink tanks (i9100 & i960) and ordering this way allows me to mix and
match quantities and colors. I got the best price by doing this instead
of bidding through ebay. I order about 50 cartridges at once to keep
the per unit cost low. Here's a link to their ebay listings for Canon
compatible cartridges: http://tinyurl.com/52c6k

Their cartridges have a 25% larger ink reservoir than most others so you
get more prints per cartridge. I can personally confirm the reservoirs
are noticeably larger than OEM Canon cartridges. As for the print
quality, I can't see much, if any, difference from the Canon ink.
Definitely not enough to justify six times the cost."

The only clogging I have had is with the i9100 printer (also have an
i960, MP780, N2000 all using compatibles) but it hasn't been anything
excessive. We might have a minor clog that needs a cleaning cycle to
correct once every 2-3 cartridge sets. I don't attribute this the
cartridges though as this printer has printed thousands of photos of
varying sizes. The other printers work flawlessly with the compatible
carts.

As for longevity I really don't understand where this is such a big
concern unless the prints are for a client. None of our prints have
faded at all. Maybe if I laid them on the dash of the car for weeks on
end it might be a problem. The ones sitting in picture frames and photo
albums are as clear as the day they were printed. The best way to
preserve personal photos (or any for that matter) is to make sure to
keep a copy of the digital image file. That way it will never degrade
and you can print a new one anytime you desire. IMO, print longevity is
determined more by the paper used than the ink.

measekite wrote:
Where did you get those carts and what brand are they? Where do you get
your ink and what brand is it? Any head clogs? How often do you
print? How about fading? Are the colors the same as Canon?

I am afraid of a head clog or a big mess so I begrudgingly use Canon
cart replacements. I also want the max in permanence and true color. I
also want to print b&w without changing carts.

Michael Johnson, PE wrote:

PC Medic wrote:

"MB_" wrote in message
...

We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:

Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will
the printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on
the computer?

Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black
cartridges: BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between
the two. I assume if one goes, we have to replace it with the same
cartridge. Correct?

Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far
cheaper compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?



The iP4000 uses a combination optical and dot count sensor system for
ink low and ink out warnings. It will first warn you when the tank is
getting low and then when the cartridge is empty a second message
will indicate this and the printing will stop until the cartridge is
replaced. You actually get quite a number of pages/photos on a 'Low'
tank.

The two black tanks are to accommodate sharp black text as well as
true black gradient in photos.

My recommendation is stay with the Canon brands. While the inks may
cost a bit more, the output is more accurate without playing with
driver settings and wasting paper to get it right. Third party carts
also do not contain the prism required for the ink sensor and
refilling your own while often successful can also lead to poor image
quality and other issues if not done right.



The BCI-6 compatibles that I use have the prism and work just like the
OEM pieces for monitoring ink. I also think you're giving the 4000
printer more sophistication that it has for monitoring ink level. I
don't think it counts dots and solely relies on the prism reading
which isn't the most accurate. But then it really doesn't matter that
much because the cartridges are clear and the ink level can be
determined by visual inspection.

Hello, Ron!
You wrote on Mon, 14 Feb 2005 05:52:07 GMT:

FWIW, I've not been in this as long as Ron, but agree whole-heartedly with
his observations.

Elaborating a bit on the paper, I was at a friend's house where they had a
picture I had printed on an "off-brand" (i.e. not OD, Canon or Red River)
paper, possible Staples or even Kodak, and it was terribly faded. Similar
time frame prints on my refrigerator still look great after a couple of
years.

Thanks.

Colonel Blip.
E-mail:

RC I've been following that thread and I while it is interesting, there
RC are some inconsistencies. Example, first he states that Formulabs ink
RC is one of the favorites, then later he slams it. From what I saw of the
RC samples, none of them seemed any good. The test samples were made using
RC cotton swabs and that could also have a direct bearing upon the amount
RC of ink deposited on the paper. Which brands got too much or too little?
RC FWIW. I've been using Formulabs ink since late 2002 on a variety of
RC papers and with several different Canon printers. I don't care how my
RC prints are stored, handled or displayed since any damaged ones can be
RC easily reprinted. However, prints in excess of two years old have not
RC shown any detectible fading and this includes ones taped to the
RC refrigerator and ones in my office where the lights are on 24/7. I've
RC also reprinted some of the older works for comparison purposes and I
RC could not see any difference. The experiences I've had with this ink is
RC not unlike that of numerous other posters who've written about
RC Formulabs ink. Overall, I'd say the user satisfaction with this brand
RC is very high. Additionally what many users fail to understand is that
RC fading is dependent upon more than just the ink. Each brand of ink
RC performs differently with various papers. Some papers are more prone to
RC fading regardless of the ink brand. Microporous (instant dry) is
RC reported to fade more rapidly than swellable polymer papers since the
RC SP coating encapsulates the ink thereby reducing it's exposure to the
RC atmosphere. The downside to SP papers (i.e. Kodak) is a complete lack
RC of moisture resistance compared to the microporous papers which can be
RC held under running water without damage.
RC --
RC Ron Cohen

RC "colinco" wrote in message
RC ...
?? In article Taliesyn says...



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"Michael Johnson, PE" wrote in message
...
PC Medic wrote:
"MB_" wrote in message
...

We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:

Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will the
printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on the
computer?

Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black cartridges:
BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between the two. I assume
if one goes, we have to replace it with the same cartridge. Correct?

Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far
cheaper compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?



The iP4000 uses a combination optical and dot count sensor system for ink
low and ink out warnings. It will first warn you when the tank is getting
low and then when the cartridge is empty a second message will indicate
this and the printing will stop until the cartridge is replaced. You
actually get quite a number of pages/photos on a 'Low' tank.

The two black tanks are to accommodate sharp black text as well as true
black gradient in photos.

My recommendation is stay with the Canon brands. While the inks may cost
a bit more, the output is more accurate without playing with driver
settings and wasting paper to get it right. Third party carts also do not
contain the prism required for the ink sensor and refilling your own
while often successful can also lead to poor image quality and other
issues if not done right.

The BCI-6 compatibles that I use have the prism and work just like the OEM
pieces for monitoring ink. I also think you're giving the 4000 printer
more sophistication that it has for monitoring ink level. I don't think
it counts dots and solely relies on the prism reading which isn't the most
accurate. But then it really doesn't matter that much because the
cartridges are clear and the ink level can be determined by visual
inspection.

If your 'compatibles' have the prism then they are 'Refills' not compatibles
as the cartridge design with the prism is patented by Canon and not licensed
to anyone. I also am giving no more credit than is due with regards to the
iP4000 ink level monitoring. I know you "don't think it counts dots" at any
point, but I happen to 'know' other wise. While you are correct that the
carts are clear and you certainly could visually inspect them each time you
wanted to know the ink level, this certainly would not be convenient and
would waste ink.

In article PC Medic says...
If your 'compatibles' have the prism then they are 'Refills' not compatibles
as the cartridge design with the prism is patented by Canon and not licensed
to anyone.

there are carts with modified design to sidestep the patent issue

"Taliesyn" wrote in message
...
PC Medic wrote:
"MB_" wrote in message
...

We recently got this printer and we like it. We are new to digital
cameras/printing, so we have some elementary questions:

Question: how will we know when one of the cartridges is empty? Will the
printer flash and indicate which cartridge? Will it indicate on the
computer?

Also, when replacing the cartridge, I see there are 2 black cartridges:
BCI-3EBK and BCI-6BK. What are the differences between the two. I assume
if one goes, we have to replace it with the same cartridge. Correct?

Finally, any thoughts on replacement brands. Should we use the far
cheaper compatibles or stay with the Canon brand?



The iP4000 uses a combination optical and dot count sensor system for ink
low and ink out warnings.

No point in counting dots with a prism on every cartridge. ALL cartridges
(any brand) that I've ever used, have always had the prism
(just plastic, aint' it?).


Certainly is and were you aware of how the printer functions you would know
that.
You have of course noticed two seperate chambers in these cartridges have
you not? Perhaps you would care to explain your design in how the printer
will not waste the significant amount of ink in the filter side of the
cartridge simply because the prism in the liquid only chamber is now
exposed?

And if ALL your cartridges have prisms, you are buying genuine Canon inks or
refills, not different brand cartridges, just different brand ink inside.

It will first warn you when the tank is getting low and then when the
cartridge is empty a second message will indicate this and the printing
will stop until the cartridge is replaced.

I don't know if it stops printing. I doubt it. I've never heard anyone
in this group mention that before.


I assure you that if you go to print and the ink is empty the printer status
monitor should pop-up a window showing that an ink is empty. Now of course
you can force it to start again, but would not be advisable.


The two black tanks are to accommodate sharp black text as well as true
black gradient in photos.

The large black is only used for text, the smaller for photos.


So you word it differently... does not change what I stated.
We could get technical and say BCI-3eBk is for text and BCI6Bk is for
photos.
But then that would not be 100% accurate either as there are exceptions
based on application, and media type setting in driver.

My recommendation is stay with the Canon brands. While the inks may cost
a bit more,

A bit? Two complete sets cost the same as an iP4000 in Canada. I can
refill for $5 a set.


Now wait, are you refilling or buying 3rd party cartridges. Lets keep your
story straight.
I am not going into the whole cost analysis thing. It has been covered too
many times in this and other forums.

the output is more accurate without playing with driver settings and
wasting paper to get it right.

The difference, if there is one, depending on brand used, is negligible.
Regular paper costs almost nothing. Even my best photo paper can be had
for an estimated 7 cents a 4x6 sheet, and the ink costs nothing.


Negligible to you perhaps. I can assure you it is significant to others.

Third party carts also do not contain the prism required for the ink
sensor

Yes, they do. No cartridge dealer would (or should) be so stupid as sell
cartridges without the all important prism in protecting the print head
(printing without ink can burn the print head, so I hear). I doubt any
dealers want the responsibility of burning their customers' printers.


I see these 3rd party carts all the time without the prism. So your
statement is blatently incorrect. You may want to be sure you are not
confusing ink with cartridges also.

and refilling your own while often successful

Easiest cartridges to fill and little or no worries about air bubbles
blocking flow after you've filled them. I've never, never, ever, had a
cartridge that wouldn't flow right off the bat. Also, these cartridges
should never leak from after refilling like the typical Lexmark and HP
cartridges. If they do leak from the exit hole, you haven't sealed the
fill hole properly. Simple as that.


And others have not been so lucky as you. Note I said it is 'often
successful" as unlike you I am aware there are two sides to this issue.
While they should flow, they do not always, while they should not leak, they
sometimes do.

can also lead to poor image quality and other issues if not done right.


Not true. There is no real wrong way of filling. As long as you manage
to fill the suggested chamber with ink and seal it air tight after,
that's the whole 'ball game'. That's ALL you need to know. Simply follow
the given instructions (or choose your own from the internet) and fill
with quality refill ink specifically made for your printer type, never
anything labeled "universal" or "works in all printers". These are risky
and can possibly trash your print head, or simply give unsatisfactory
printouts. My preference is any dealer that sells ink made by Formulabs.

-Taliesyn

You contradict yourself here, so I will not add to it.