Color Laser

I smell a Xerox deal hatching ;-)

Art

Free Printer Guy wrote:

Bill,

How many color prints will you be making per month?

Dennis


Bill Martin -- Remove "NOSPAM" from address wrote:

Anyone have experience and/or recommendations on a relatively cheap
color laser? I'm just looking to print text and color charts -- not
photos or something.

I've owned the black ones in the past. Are the color ones similar or

do

they require more tweaking, cleaning and maintenance than the older
black only? With the black one I could pretty much forget about it

for

the 5,000 pages or so the toner cartridge could print. As opposed to


ink jets where one seems to spend time cleaning them, etc., to keep

them

running well.

Bill

Coup wrote:

On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 12:35:02 GMT, Arthur Entlich
wrote:


Any idea who is making it for Dell?



Art .. you're getting bleary-eyed...lol Reread my #1 below that you
quoted in your question ;-)


I am indeed bleary-eyed... I was up for about 36 hours at that point...
and you are right, I missed it. I read everything but that last
sentence, where you went into them not being Lexmarks.

The Fuji-Xerox printers have received some interest as perhaps a good
association between the two companies and their technologies.

I'm going to have to ask around for some print samples, as good as your
description is, it is hard to qualify an image production device without
seeing output.

I'll have to research it... however, why the heck is it so large? 17" x
17" x 30" high? wow.

Art



I'm sure Dell is not making their own printers, even if they aren't
Lexmarks, someone is making them... Epson, Fuji, Xerox, Minolta, Canon,
Samsung, Brother.. someone...

Art

Coup wrote:

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:11:09 GMT, "Bill Martin -- Remove \"NOSPAM\"
from address" wrote:



Anyone have experience and/or recommendations on a relatively cheap
color laser? I'm just looking to print text and color charts -- not
photos or something.

I've owned the black ones in the past. Are the color ones similar or do
they require more tweaking, cleaning and maintenance than the older
black only? With the black one I could pretty much forget about it for
the 5,000 pages or so the toner cartridge could print. As opposed to
ink jets where one seems to spend time cleaning them, etc., to keep them
running well.

Bill


My post here a few days ago about my Dell 3100cn is relevant:

Refusing to be suckered into the insanity of the ink jet scams as
printer makers dispense rediculously tiny amounts of ink in carts that
are becoming impossible to refill, and having had both Lexmark and
Epson ink jet printers that never stopped clogging because I don't use
them every day....I like many have been watching the low end color
laser market. Several friends went for KonicaMinolta 2300 series
units... the quality of the output is not bad, but they are bulky and
noisy.

I should explain that my use is a mix of colored printing (text, maps
etc.) and some photographic reproduction.. and my own bias is for
matte somewhat understated color, as opposed to the very high gloss
reproduction with colors that many prefer but I find somewhat over
saturated. I realize this plays into the laser category which in fact
tends to produce less vivid photo reproduction. That said:

1. The Dell 3000cn and 3100cn are NOT rebadged Lexmarks. While I
detest Lexmark inkjets, in fact I have both a Lexmark Optra R+ that
has been running for 8 years thru innumerable toner/drum replacements
and just keeps running and an Optra S1650 that has been equally
reliable. In any event these are the first Dells that are rebadged
Fuji-Xerox products... in fact they are the F-X Docuprint C525A.

2. Last week Dell had the 3000cn on sale for $270 with free ground
shipping and will probably have it on sale again.. but the 3100cn is
probably the better buy for reasons to be seen below. The 3000cn is a
PCL6 printer, has 64m ram standard, single MFT 150 sheet tray,
parallel, USB 2.0 and Ethernet inputs. You get Starter toners rated
for 2K Black and 1K color toners. Replacement toner pack (4k Black and
2k color) runs $220, but if ordered 'correctly' was also subject to
the 40% off sale.

3. The 3100cn differs in that you get: Postscript (making it useable
by Macs), the accessory Paper Tray (250 pages), and full toner carts
(4K for Black and all colors). On sale with next day shipping at 30%
off it comes to $384.

4. Dell is very coy about whether both machines can use the same toner
carts (they can). The "Full" color carts for the 3000cn are still
actually only half filled (rated at 2k pages) while the 3100 comes
with really full carts and only on the 3100 page do you see a
replacement pack of all 4 toners rated for 4k at $280 (opposed to the
3000 pack including half filled color toners for $220)

5 Amazing fact: In the Configuration settings for the 3100 you will
find a setting "Allow Non-Dell refilled toner carts". It's not clear
if the Dell carts have chips, but this setting leaves me
speachless...and clearly odds become very good that this printer can
be operated economically... being brand new nobody yet offers toner
for it, but with this feature the odds that someone will get very
good.

6. 64Meg , standard memory, will not allow for high definition 8x10
images. It uses PC133.. you get one socket.. but oddly it uses SO-DIMM
so you're unlikely to have old stuff lying around.. but at least it's
cheap. I added a 256 Meg stick.. 320 seems enough for anything so
far...

7. The 3100cn is a tank 17" x17" by almost 30" high, it weighs like 75
lbs. It's noisy, but not as noisy as the Minolta 2300 series. Print
speeds are faster than the Minolta on color, text is sharper, but I
use my b&w lasers for text. Photo reproduction, to my eye is sharper
and slightly more vibrant than the Minolta, but will probably
disappoint those who want very vibrant high gloss reproduction. For
reference I'm using Hammermill Ultra Premium Laser (24 lb. 106 Bright)
which is barely above matte and Hammermill Color Copy (28 lb. 98
Bright) which is "mildly glossy".

Overall I'm so far quite satisfied with the 3100cn.. hopefully the
above will help others decide if this printer is of interest to
them...

Well, I think they are called color photocopiers, and they are big and
costly to make, not to mention they don't want to cut into that market,
which is probably were most of the money is.

In general, color photocopiers have less costly toner cartridges, but
the initial cost of the units are considerably higher.

Art

Bill Martin -- Remove "NOSPAM" from address wrote:

I've got to admit the Dell looks like quite a nice printer. If they
also sold it in a multifunction model I'd buy it tomorrow I think.

As it is, I'll anguish over it for awhile until the price comes back
down I suppose.

Thanks for the info Coup.

(Curiously, I don't see anyone selling the color laser engines in a
multifunction format yet. I suppose they want to get some field
experience with the color print engine itself first. Surely they're
bolting parts together in the back room even now though.)

Bill

Arthur Entlich wrote:
Well, I think they are called color photocopiers, and they are big and
costly to make, not to mention they don't want to cut into that market,
which is probably were most of the money is.

In general, color photocopiers have less costly toner cartridges, but
the initial cost of the units are considerably higher.

Art

----------------

A few years back I could have said the same about mono photocopiers.
Big expensive production machines you'd never have on your desk. Now
you do, and given the cheap print engine it's fairly trivial to add a
scanner and fax interface at very moderate extra expense. Which they've
been doing for some time now.

Do you see any reason at all that color laser printers won't follow
exactly the same trajectory? They've already cost/size reduced the
print engine to sit on your desk. Integrating a scanner/fax is
technologically trivial at this point if they see a market for it.

I've got to believe it's on their product road maps. They just need to
get the simple color laser printer out the door first.

Frankly I'd be surprised if color laser multifunctions don't come out
soon and drive the monos off the market.

Bill

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 14:26:08 GMT, Arthur Entlich
wrote:



Coup wrote:

On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 12:35:02 GMT, Arthur Entlich
wrote:


Any idea who is making it for Dell?



Art .. you're getting bleary-eyed...lol Reread my #1 below that you
quoted in your question ;-)


I am indeed bleary-eyed... I was up for about 36 hours at that point...
and you are right, I missed it. I read everything but that last
sentence, where you went into them not being Lexmarks.

The Fuji-Xerox printers have received some interest as perhaps a good
association between the two companies and their technologies.

I'm going to have to ask around for some print samples, as good as your
description is, it is hard to qualify an image production device without
seeing output.

I'll have to research it... however, why the heck is it so large? 17" x
17" x 30" high? wow.

Art

Actually, I was exaggerating it turns out, the 3100cn is 17' x 17" x
22" high. The 3100cn adds the extra paper tray underneath that adds 4"
to it. Adding the available duplexer to it probably creates something
approaching the 30" tower.

Other weirdness (you have to wonder about the though processes that
results in some of this):

The 3000cn is 4" lower, missing the 250 sheet paper tray, but the
3100cn CANNOT BE OPERATED WITHOUT THE TRAY.

The 3100cn is actually about 73 lbs vs 56 for the 3000, virtually the
whole difference is the paper tray which is one hunk of a piece of
mostly metal....so most everything on this printer is built like a
tank... except

The fold out "support/stop flap" on the output tray at the top
couldn't possibly be any thinner or more flimsy plastic... this seems
to be becoming a 'tradition' with just about ever maker of printers...
is there some 'secret protocol' all printer companies have subscribed
to about this sort of thing? God forbid they add 2 oz. to the weight
and make this part out of stamped metal...

In message t, "Bill
Martin -- Remove \"NOSPAM\" from address"
writes

Do you see any reason at all that color laser printers won't follow
exactly the same trajectory? They've already cost/size reduced the
print engine to sit on your desk. Integrating a scanner/fax is
technologically trivial at this point if they see a market for it.

I've got to believe it's on their product road maps. They just need to
get the simple color laser printer out the door first.

Frankly I'd be surprised if color laser multifunctions don't come out
soon and drive the monos off the market.

I've been looking at this sort of thing and currently I reckon its
cheaper to buy a multifunction A3 (approx 11" x 17") mono and an A3
colour laser for less than the equivalent multifunction colour A3.

--
Timothy Lee http://www.wightproperty.com
tlatwightpropertydotcom

Actually, I do see several reasons they will not be here soon.

First off, color inkjet multifunction machines are very inexpensive to
make, are lightweight, and there target market is low volume users.

Color laser printers are big, and expensive to make. To reduce the
size, and add a scanner will require smaller toner cartridges. For low
volume users, it makes no sense. For larger volume users, the market
provides color photocopiers at considerably higher costs.

I see color photocopiers coming down in cost only if the manufacturers
go to a costly refilling system, like color laser printers. To do so,
requires a large enough demand, because the machines are still costly to
make. If they can't sell a LOT of very overpriced color toner
cartridges, simply put, they cannot afford to lower the cost of the copiers.

Since even relatively small toner cartridges provide thousands of copies
at 5% coverage, for small volume users, the manufacturers would end up
selling these machines at near cost, and never sell refill cartridges.

Large volume users will buy them only because they save money on
consumables, which means the price of the machines have to stay up to
pay for the cost of the machines.

I could be wrong. I never expected inkjet color printing to come to
anything more than a short transition to color laser... obviously that
was way off base. Don't bet the farm on my predictions, but for now, at
least, I think you may not be seeing these all in one color laser based
machines at reasonable costs for years to come.

Art

Bill Martin -- Remove "NOSPAM" from address wrote:

Arthur Entlich wrote:

Well, I think they are called color photocopiers, and they are big and
costly to make, not to mention they don't want to cut into that
market, which is probably were most of the money is.

In general, color photocopiers have less costly toner cartridges, but
the initial cost of the units are considerably higher.

Art


----------------

A few years back I could have said the same about mono photocopiers. Big
expensive production machines you'd never have on your desk. Now you
do, and given the cheap print engine it's fairly trivial to add a
scanner and fax interface at very moderate extra expense. Which they've
been doing for some time now.

Do you see any reason at all that color laser printers won't follow
exactly the same trajectory? They've already cost/size reduced the
print engine to sit on your desk. Integrating a scanner/fax is
technologically trivial at this point if they see a market for it.

I've got to believe it's on their product road maps. They just need to
get the simple color laser printer out the door first.

Frankly I'd be surprised if color laser multifunctions don't come out
soon and drive the monos off the market.

Bill

But then you'd never have to buy a new part... those little flaps are
only available from Dell for $300 each! ;-)

Art


Coup wrote:


The fold out "support/stop flap" on the output tray at the top
couldn't possibly be any thinner or more flimsy plastic... this seems
to be becoming a 'tradition' with just about ever maker of printers...
is there some 'secret protocol' all printer companies have subscribed
to about this sort of thing? God forbid they add 2 oz. to the weight
and make this part out of stamped metal...

Arthur Entlich wrote:
Actually, I do see several reasons they will not be here soon.

First off, color inkjet multifunction machines are very inexpensive to
make, are lightweight, and there target market is low volume users.

Color laser printers are big, and expensive to make. To reduce the
size, and add a scanner will require smaller toner cartridges. For low
volume users, it makes no sense. For larger volume users, the market
provides color photocopiers at considerably higher costs.

Perhaps you're missing the point that cheap color laser printers are
*already* here? As Coup said, on a good sale you can buy one from Dell
for $275. The real question is simply how long it takes to bolt a
scanner on the top of it. They already do it with mono laser
multifunctions.

Bill

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 14:26:08 GMT, Arthur Entlich
wrote:


The Fuji-Xerox printers have received some interest as perhaps a good
association between the two companies and their technologies.

I'm going to have to ask around for some print samples, as good as your
description is, it is hard to qualify an image production device without
seeing output.

I'll have to research it... however, why the heck is it so large? 17" x
17" x 30" high? wow.

Art

I've just installed 3 of the Dell 5100cn which is the bigger brother
of the 3100. The printer is big and bulky but my back is telling me
that it is lighter than an HP4600. Compare to the HP 4500 or even the
HP 4600 the Dell is much more quiet, in fact these were installed as
personal printers which mean they are within 5 feet of the users and
it is even less noisy than an HP4200 it replaced.

If you have ever waited for an 4500 to warm up you'll be delighted
with how fast the Dell came out of power save mode. The first page
came out under 30 seconds. I only printed a couple of test pages and
some web pages so don't have an informed opinion of the output quality
but my quick impression is that the color saturation and glossiness is
more like the 4500, which I prefer, than the 4600.