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Lengthen the life of Windows 7 using the legal system



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 18th 19, 08:14 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Char Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 213
Default Lengthen the life of Windows 7 using the legal system

On Fri, 18 Jan 2019 10:39:38 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote:

On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 18:01:33 -0600, Char Jackson
wrote:

One might wonder what's obsolete about Windows 7, and who gets to make
the determination in the first place?


It certainly doesn't seem obsolete
to me. In fact, it seems to be much more functional and stable than 10,
although that opinion isn't universal.



I don't agree. In my experience, both Windows 7 and 10 are almost
completely stable. I don't remember any Windows 10 crashes here.


I wasn't referring to crashes. I was referring to having a stable
computing platform that can be counted on to be ready to go when the
user is ready to go. Clearly, Windows 10 misses that mark by a country
mile.

There's a segment of the computing public for which Windows 10 is just
fine. Within that segment, you have people who just don't know any
better, or people who use their computer for non-work activities who, at
the most, are only inconvenienced by the weaknesses of Windows 10. I
might say that they don't really care, or they've otherwise somehow come
to grips with the idea that this is just how it is and how it's going to
be. Kudos to that group, because they've made their lives a bit easier.

But there's another segment of the computing public who need more
platform stability, there's that word again, than Windows 10 can
deliver.

I can't say for sure, but I assume there will come a time, perhaps when
I'm in retirement, where the current behavior of Windows 10 would put me
into the first segment above, but at the moment, still being in the
workforce and needing a computer to do my work, I'm very clearly in the
second segment, where Windows 10 falls very short. Can MS get it to
where it needs to be? I think so, but it's been about a decade now since
they've tried to deliver an OS that does what I need, rather than what
they (MS) want for it. Their goals, and my goals, are slipping further
apart rather than getting closer.

Also in my experience, Windows 10 is just as functional as Windows 7.
Anything that can be done in Windows 7 can also be done in Window 10.


Some days that's true. Other days it's not. From that perspective,
things are much worse now than they were before Windows 10 came onto the
scene. When you're using a computer for work, there are lots of times
when you need it right now, not in 10 minutes or an hour, when it
decides it's ready to be available. You're retired, so maybe none of it
really matters to you. If the computer isn't ready to work, you can get
up and get a cup of coffee. You can go for a walk or run an errand. I,
and others like me who use a computer for work, don't have that luxury.

Fortunately, we still have options. For me, that's Windows 7 and a
highly customized Windows 8.1. Highly customized because it literally
took me two years to get Windows 8.1 tamed to where I could start to
depend on it. I could do it faster now, of course, but back then it was
new and people were in the midst of discovering and remediating the
various weaknesses and shortcomings. Now we're in the same situation
with Windows 10, but so far we're finding that the most egregious
behaviors have no easy remedies.

  #22  
Old January 18th 19, 08:30 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
NY
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11
Default Lengthen the life of Windows 7 using the legal system

"Char Jackson" wrote in message
...
I wasn't referring to crashes. I was referring to having a stable
computing platform that can be counted on to be ready to go when the
user is ready to go. Clearly, Windows 10 misses that mark by a country
mile.


I can't say for sure, but I assume there will come a time, perhaps when
I'm in retirement, where the current behavior of Windows 10 would put me
into the first segment above, but at the moment, still being in the
workforce and needing a computer to do my work, I'm very clearly in the
second segment, where Windows 10 falls very short. Can MS get it to
where it needs to be? I think so, but it's been about a decade now since
they've tried to deliver an OS that does what I need, rather than what
they (MS) want for it. Their goals, and my goals, are slipping further
apart rather than getting closer.

Also in my experience, Windows 10 is just as functional as Windows 7.
Anything that can be done in Windows 7 can also be done in Window 10.


Some days that's true. Other days it's not. From that perspective,
things are much worse now than they were before Windows 10 came onto the
scene. When you're using a computer for work, there are lots of times
when you need it right now, not in 10 minutes or an hour, when it
decides it's ready to be available. You're retired, so maybe none of it
really matters to you. If the computer isn't ready to work, you can get
up and get a cup of coffee. You can go for a walk or run an errand. I,
and others like me who use a computer for work, don't have that luxury.

Fortunately, we still have options. For me, that's Windows 7 and a
highly customized Windows 8.1. Highly customized because it literally
took me two years to get Windows 8.1 tamed to where I could start to
depend on it. I could do it faster now, of course, but back then it was
new and people were in the midst of discovering and remediating the
various weaknesses and shortcomings. Now we're in the same situation
with Windows 10, but so far we're finding that the most egregious
behaviors have no easy remedies.



My Windows 7 PC is staying Win 7 forever. I haven't got the patience to have
to disentangle all the little things that will stop working after the
upgrade (always assuming that the PC actually boots in the first place after
upgrade) and will have to be removed, reinstalled and re-customised. Then
there'll be all the software that is no longer compatible or which gets
forcibly removed with no ability to download and install again (Windows Live
Mail, for example).

In other words, what sits on top of the operating system should require as
little intervention as possible, even if the foundations (the OS) are
removed and a new version installed.

If I go for Win 10, it will be on a brand new PC that I can run side-by-side
with the Win 7 PC, while I'm setting up the Win 10 PC to match the Win 7
one, without the Win 7 stopping working until the Win 10 problems have been
addressed.

Too many upgrades of software (not specifically the OS) stop a valued add-on
from working. I loathe the new UI of Firefox and prefer the older versions
that can be customised with Classic Theme Restorer that (you've guessed it)
is incompatible with new Firefox.

  #23  
Old January 18th 19, 08:59 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Ken Blake[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 27
Default Lengthen the life of Windows 7 using the legal system

On Fri, 18 Jan 2019 13:14:40 -0600, Char Jackson
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Jan 2019 10:39:38 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote:

On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 18:01:33 -0600, Char Jackson
wrote:

One might wonder what's obsolete about Windows 7, and who gets to make
the determination in the first place?


It certainly doesn't seem obsolete
to me. In fact, it seems to be much more functional and stable than 10,
although that opinion isn't universal.



I don't agree. In my experience, both Windows 7 and 10 are almost
completely stable. I don't remember any Windows 10 crashes here.


I wasn't referring to crashes. I was referring to having a stable
computing platform that can be counted on to be ready to go when the
user is ready to go. Clearly, Windows 10 misses that mark by a country
mile.



I wouldn't call that "stability," but if that's what you meant, I'll
respond to it.

In my experience, not only does it not miss the mark by a country
mile, it doesn't miss it by a country inch. It doesn't miss it all. On
both Windows 10 computers here, and all the others I've helped people
on, it's always ready.



There's a segment of the computing public for which Windows 10 is just
fine. Within that segment, you have people who just don't know any
better, or people who use their computer for non-work activities who, at
the most, are only inconvenienced by the weaknesses of Windows 10. I
might say that they don't really care, or they've otherwise somehow come
to grips with the idea that this is just how it is and how it's going to
be. Kudos to that group, because they've made their lives a bit easier.

But there's another segment of the computing public who need more
platform stability, there's that word again, than Windows 10 can
deliver.

I can't say for sure, but I assume there will come a time, perhaps when
I'm in retirement, where the current behavior of Windows 10 would put me
into the first segment above, but at the moment, still being in the
workforce and needing a computer to do my work, I'm very clearly in the
second segment, where Windows 10 falls very short. Can MS get it to
where it needs to be? I think so, but it's been about a decade now since
they've tried to deliver an OS that does what I need, rather than what
they (MS) want for it. Their goals, and my goals, are slipping further
apart rather than getting closer.

Also in my experience, Windows 10 is just as functional as Windows 7.
Anything that can be done in Windows 7 can also be done in Window 10.


Some days that's true. Other days it's not. From that perspective,
things are much worse now than they were before Windows 10 came onto the
scene. When you're using a computer for work, there are lots of times
when you need it right now, not in 10 minutes or an hour, when it
decides it's ready to be available. You're retired, so maybe none of it
really matters to you. If the computer isn't ready to work, you can get
up and get a cup of coffee. You can go for a walk or run an errand. I,
and others like me who use a computer for work, don't have that luxury.




Retired or not, it matters to me just as much as it does to you. But
as I said, my experience is very different from yours.


Fortunately, we still have options. For me, that's Windows 7 and a
highly customized Windows 8.1. Highly customized because it literally
took me two years to get Windows 8.1 tamed to where I could start to
depend on it. I could do it faster now, of course, but back then it was
new and people were in the midst of discovering and remediating the
various weaknesses and shortcomings. Now we're in the same situation
with Windows 10, but so far we're finding that the most egregious
behaviors have no easy remedies.




You and I don't disagree on many things, but this is one where we
clearly do.
  #24  
Old January 19th 19, 10:43 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.comp.freeware,alt.conspiracy
Chris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 22
Default Lengthen the life of Windows 7 using the legal system

Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

Can a class-action suit be filed to US Court to force Micro$oft to
extend its support for Windows 7?


Based on what? It's practically a 10 year old os that had been superseded
twice (three times, if you include 8.1) and Microsoft has very clearly and
in plenty of time announced its EOL.

So not a chance.

As others have said though there's nothing to stop you from continuing to
use it.

I do NOT think Windows 10 is ready for the prime time, it's update is
absolutely as horrifying as a data doomsday.


It's a horrible os, but it does work as well as any windows release.



  #25  
Old January 20th 19, 07:07 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.comp.freeware,alt.conspiracy
Filip454
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Lengthen the life of Windows 7 using the legal system

On 2019-01-19 10:43, Chris wrote:
Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

Can a class-action suit be filed to US Court to force Micro$oft to
extend its support for Windows 7?


Based on what? It's practically a 10 year old os that had been superseded
twice (three times, if you include 8.1) and Microsoft has very clearly and
in plenty of time announced its EOL.

So not a chance.

As others have said though there's nothing to stop you from continuing to
use it.

I do NOT think Windows 10 is ready for the prime time, it's update is
absolutely as horrifying as a data doomsday.


It's a horrible os, but it does work as well as any windows release.




I do not agree at all.

Especially on slower laptops, Windows 10 runs absolutely TERRIBLE -
cheap Pentium laptops for example like HP G4 250. It should not be even
preinstalled on those machines.
  #26  
Old January 20th 19, 07:58 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Paul[_28_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,467
Default Lengthen the life of Windows 7 using the legal system

Filip454 wrote:
On 2019-01-19 10:43, Chris wrote:
Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

Can a class-action suit be filed to US Court to force Micro$oft to
extend its support for Windows 7?


Based on what? It's practically a 10 year old os that had been superseded
twice (three times, if you include 8.1) and Microsoft has very clearly
and
in plenty of time announced its EOL.

So not a chance.

As others have said though there's nothing to stop you from continuing to
use it.

I do NOT think Windows 10 is ready for the prime time, it's update is
absolutely as horrifying as a data doomsday.


It's a horrible os, but it does work as well as any windows release.




I do not agree at all.

Especially on slower laptops, Windows 10 runs absolutely TERRIBLE -
cheap Pentium laptops for example like HP G4 250. It should not be even
preinstalled on those machines.


That can happen if there's no graphics driver.

There's one Intel SOC where it appears the graphics core
was some sort of orphan, and it leaves the bad impression
that Intel doesn't support the driver (as if the single
driver done, was done by some other company).

That particular model of laptop has multiple processor options,
which would make if difficult to research the issue.

Paul
  #27  
Old January 20th 19, 08:47 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.comp.freeware,alt.conspiracy
Chris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 22
Default Lengthen the life of Windows 7 using the legal system

On 20/01/2019 18:07, Filip454 wrote:
On 2019-01-19 10:43, Chris wrote:
Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

Can a class-action suit be filed to US Court to force Micro$oft to
extend its support for Windows 7?


Based on what? It's practically a 10 year old os that had been superseded
twice (three times, if you include 8.1) and Microsoft has very clearly
and
in plenty of time announced its EOL.

So not a chance.

As others have said though there's nothing to stop you from continuing to
use it.

I do NOT think Windows 10 is ready for the prime time, it's update is
absolutely as horrifying as a data doomsday.


It's a horrible os, but it does work as well as any windows release.




I do not agree at all.

Especially on slower laptops, Windows 10 runs absolutely TERRIBLE -
cheap Pentium laptops for example like HP G4 250. It should not be even
preinstalled on those machines.


Windows has never worked well on under-powered (for it's generation)
hardware.

My "works as well as as any windows" is a very back-handed comment. It
means that when it works it works fine, but sometimes it can be crashy
as hell for people for no real reason.

  #28  
Old January 20th 19, 10:04 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Paul[_28_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,467
Default Lengthen the life of Windows 7 using the legal system

Chris wrote:
On 20/01/2019 18:07, Filip454 wrote:
On 2019-01-19 10:43, Chris wrote:
Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

Can a class-action suit be filed to US Court to force Micro$oft to
extend its support for Windows 7?

Based on what? It's practically a 10 year old os that had been
superseded
twice (three times, if you include 8.1) and Microsoft has very
clearly and
in plenty of time announced its EOL.

So not a chance.

As others have said though there's nothing to stop you from
continuing to
use it.

I do NOT think Windows 10 is ready for the prime time, it's update is
absolutely as horrifying as a data doomsday.

It's a horrible os, but it does work as well as any windows release.




I do not agree at all.

Especially on slower laptops, Windows 10 runs absolutely TERRIBLE -
cheap Pentium laptops for example like HP G4 250. It should not be
even preinstalled on those machines.


Windows has never worked well on under-powered (for it's generation)
hardware.

My "works as well as as any windows" is a very back-handed comment. It
means that when it works it works fine, but sometimes it can be crashy
as hell for people for no real reason.


I've benched hardware under the various OSes, and
there really isn't much difference at the CPU cycle
level. Since Windows 10 "reserves" cycles to remain
responsive, you have to "oversubscribe on threads" to
get 100% of the CPU capability. For example, on a 4 core
CPU, you might use 8 threads in 7ZIP ultra, to drive the
CPU to 100% instead of 85-90%.

By doing some careful benchmarking, on "relatively simple"
architectures, there's no difference. Windows 7 is ahead
by maybe 1%, but it could easily be "poor technique" on
my part or measurement error. I repeated some of my work
three times (cache warmup or whatever), just to make sure
I wasn't doing it wrong. You either cache warmup, or you
reboot before every test sequence to re-establish initial state.

When the CPU arch is "squirrel strange", like on a ThreadRipper
or Epyc, more holes could show through. Embarrassing holes,
that make it apparent the CPU isn't tuned by any OS loaded
on it. When facilities in a CPU are not uniform, this is
what happens. (Even though Microsoft has moaned and groaned
for several of their OSes, that "things were better".)

AMDs next version, the one that uses chiplets, hopes to get
around this issue by making things more symmetric, more of
the time.

On an Intel processor with the dual rotating rings, you
lose around one core of performance due to the bus. A six
core processor gives five cores of thruput. Intel attempted
to fix that using mesh busses (a bus array), but I've not
examined any results on the web to see whether that improved
things or not. And you got "more of your moneys worth".

The interconnect issue was present in previous generations.
A Q6600 which consists of two dual-core dies in the same
CPU package, gives around 3.5 cores of performance out
of a max of 4 cores. This is due to snoop traffic on the
FSB - both cores share the FSB with the Northbridge
connection, and "chit-chat" between processors robs
the design of a bit of performance. Once the memory
controller and PCIe video were brought inside the
CPU, and the CPU consisted of one core, the efficiency
came back.

Usually a 4C8T processor is small enough now, to be
"devoid of squirrels". Anything larger, do the research.

And integrated video is another issue. There is at least
one SOC that had a strange GPU in it, and only one driver
was made for it. Which in a rolling release like Windows 10,
is a liability (since the WDDM version number could be bumped).

Paul
  #29  
Old January 21st 19, 08:08 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Bill[_39_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 38
Default Lengthen the life of Windows 7 using the legal system

Chris wrote:
On 20/01/2019 18:07, Filip454 wrote:
On 2019-01-19 10:43, Chris wrote:
Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

Can a class-action suit be filed to US Court to force
Micro$oft to
extend its support for Windows 7?

Based on what? It's practically a 10 year old os that had been
superseded
twice (three times, if you include 8.1) and Microsoft has very
clearly and
in plenty of time announced its EOL.

So not a chance.

As others have said though there's nothing to stop you from
continuing to
use it.

I do NOT think Windows 10 is ready for the prime time, it's
update is
absolutely as horrifying as a data doomsday.

It's a horrible os, but it does work as well as any windows
release.




I do not agree at all.

Especially on slower laptops, Windows 10 runs absolutely
TERRIBLE - cheap Pentium laptops for example like HP G4 250. It
should not be even preinstalled on those machines.


Windows has never worked well on under-powered (for it's
generation) hardware.

My "works as well as as any windows" is a very back-handed
comment. It means that when it works it works fine, but sometimes
it can be crashy as hell for people for no real reason.


Some of my most "time-consuming" issues/problems that I have
encountered on my pc and laptop over the years, have been caused
by Windows Updates. Recently, I had to learn how to delete my
entire "update history" in order to get Windows to perform an
update. Thank goodness (for me) that many other people
encountered and fixed the problem before I did. I spent about 6
hours trying to fix the problem myself before I went googling for
a solution (my bad). It took a number of hours after that too,
but I didn't stand around and watch.


  #30  
Old January 21st 19, 02:06 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 220
Default Lengthen the life of Windows 7 using the legal system

On Friday, January 18, 2019 at 7:53:08 PM UTC+8, mechanic wrote:

That's really a choice for MSFT. When/if they no longer support a
version - usually after a couple of newer versions have been
released - they are perfectly entitled to label the old version
'obsolete'. Fans of such versions of course may crowd together and
share hints and tips, just like fans of old cars do even after the
original makers went out of business. At the present time we know
MSFT have released win10 versions 1511, 1607, 1703,1709, 1803, 1809
in a semi-annual pattern of feature updates. Hard to keep up for
large user organisations no doubt, but easy enough for individual
home/pro users, just like a stream of service packs. The only hard
choice recently is the move from support for 32 bit machines to a 64
bit focus. That is a hard one when there are significant numbers
still with 32 bit machines.


32-bit? that would go back to Northwood Pentium 4...
Or do you mean with 4 GiB of memory or less?
 




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