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  #11  
Old August 18th 15, 11:06 PM posted to comp.periphs.printers,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Tony
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 175
Default printer driver driver

micky wrote:
In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, on Tue, 18 Aug 2015 15:26:23
-0500, Tony lizandtony at orcon dot net dot nz wrote:

micky wrote:
Seems to me, someone should be able to write a printer driver driver,
that will take the output from XP, 7, 8, or 10 and convert it to what
the output from win98 or XP would look like, to be used as input for old
printers. So that old printers -- and other accessories -- could be
used with new versions of windows.

So it woudln't have to be printer-specific,

If this won't work, how come?

It annoys me that not only do they want us to buy a new version of
Windows, which often means a new computer, but then we have to buy new
printers, etc.


Good idea.
Please be aware that when the internals of the OS are upgraded it may be
impossible to remain compatible with older printer drivers without
compromising
the new OS release.


Not without compromisiing some of the new print features**, you mean,
right?

Probably both. For example the interface had to change with improvements like
USB2 and 3 upgrades which required new USB drivers which have to interface with
the OS, it is a very complex environment. There are several examples of
manufacturers not properly implementing USB3 (they don't always work with USB2
connections because of enumeration issues).

Features most people never use, I'll bet. The 82 or so letters,
numbers. and basic punctuation marks are the same from one OS to
another, I woudl think, but if they're not, it would be easy enough to
map one OS to another. Plus another 10 or so printer control
characters. 99.99% of everything I write doesn't use more than that.

Then there is graphics. I don't know how that is controlled, but
mapping one output to the other is bound to be possible.

All has to be compatible. Graphical interfaces are very complex because there
are different ways of providing graphical printing, depending on the type of
printer (there are as you know several diffferent technologies) the driver has
to hndle that which is why the printer manufacturer needs to provide the driver.
**And are they still coming out with new print features? What is left
to have? Maybe 3-D or holograms or human bladder printing, but I'll
never want to use those.

Well, 3D is in its infancy, who knows what will happen but once more the OS
provides the rules for interfacing and the driver needs to meet those rules.
I know that as new OSs are produced there have been changes to the interface,
but you would expect that as things improve, right?

Microsoft does not write the printer drivers anyway, the printer manufacturer
provides them.
Tony


I assume that means that MS releases the format of the output to the
driver, of all the MS programs. Well, iiuc not the MS programs but the
OS itself determines the output to the printer, including what is
generated by non-MS programs. And it's uniform, no matter what program
is doing the printing, right? Otherwise the driver would have to have
spearate sections for different programs that print.

Yes Microsoft publishes a driver interface specification (not sure what they
call it any more) and the printer manufacturers have to comply or risk issues
with their customers.
Software suppliers have to comply with the interface also so that they can
print, in many cases they simply call the OS print routines but in some cases
they cannot do that and write their own routines which must comply with the
interface.
Your proposition is probably possible, I suspect it is more complex than it
appears at first glance and who will do it? It needs to be profitable or open
source!

Tony

  #12  
Old August 18th 15, 11:26 PM posted to comp.periphs.printers,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 115
Default printer driver driver

In message , micky
writes:
[things that let old hardware run under new versions of Windows]
I've never seen what I'm talking about on the web. not even one, let
alone the "some" that you talk about below.

[]
I've seen one for scanners; unfortunately it isn't free, and costs about
the same as a cheap scanner. This is sad, as it's a good product; it's
just made by a small company (Australian, I think) who aren't big enough
to be able to offer it at a lower price. (There is a free "evaluation"
version, but that puts overprinting on the result - it's intended for
you to see if your scanner works with it.)

IIRR, it's called VueScan.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

She's showing her age a little bit. I always say she doesn't have teething
troubles, she has denture troubles! - Timothy West (on their narrowboat!), RT
2014-March
  #13  
Old August 18th 15, 11:32 PM posted to comp.periphs.printers,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
micky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 439
Default printer driver driver

In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, on Tue, 18 Aug 2015 17:06:45
-0500, Tony lizandtony at orcon dot net dot nz wrote:

micky wrote:
In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, on Tue, 18 Aug 2015 15:26:23
-0500, Tony lizandtony at orcon dot net dot nz wrote:

micky wrote:
Seems to me, someone should be able to write a printer driver driver,
that will take the output from XP, 7, 8, or 10 and convert it to what
the output from win98 or XP would look like, to be used as input for old
printers. So that old printers -- and other accessories -- could be
used with new versions of windows.

So it woudln't have to be printer-specific,

If this won't work, how come?

It annoys me that not only do they want us to buy a new version of
Windows, which often means a new computer, but then we have to buy new
printers, etc.


Good idea.
Please be aware that when the internals of the OS are upgraded it may be
impossible to remain compatible with older printer drivers without
compromising
the new OS release.


Not without compromisiing some of the new print features**, you mean,
right?

Probably both. For example the interface had to change with improvements like
USB2 and 3 upgrades which required new USB drivers which have to interface with
the OS, it is a very complex environment. There are several examples of
manufacturers not properly implementing USB3 (they don't always work with USB2
connections because of enumeration issues).

Features most people never use, I'll bet. The 82 or so letters,
numbers. and basic punctuation marks are the same from one OS to
another, I woudl think, but if they're not, it would be easy enough to
map one OS to another. Plus another 10 or so printer control
characters. 99.99% of everything I write doesn't use more than that.

Then there is graphics. I don't know how that is controlled, but
mapping one output to the other is bound to be possible.

All has to be compatible. Graphical interfaces are very complex because there
are different ways of providing graphical printing, depending on the type of
printer (there are as you know several diffferent technologies) the driver has
to hndle that which is why the printer manufacturer needs to provide the driver.
**And are they still coming out with new print features? What is left
to have? Maybe 3-D or holograms or human bladder printing, but I'll
never want to use those.

Well, 3D is in its infancy, who knows what will happen but once more the OS
provides the rules for interfacing and the driver needs to meet those rules.
I know that as new OSs are produced there have been changes to the interface,
but you would expect that as things improve, right?

Microsoft does not write the printer drivers anyway, the printer manufacturer
provides them.
Tony


I assume that means that MS releases the format of the output to the
driver, of all the MS programs. Well, iiuc not the MS programs but the
OS itself determines the output to the printer, including what is
generated by non-MS programs. And it's uniform, no matter what program
is doing the printing, right? Otherwise the driver would have to have
spearate sections for different programs that print.

Yes Microsoft publishes a driver interface specification (not sure what they
call it any more) and the printer manufacturers have to comply or risk issues
with their customers.
Software suppliers have to comply with the interface also so that they can
print, in many cases they simply call the OS print routines but in some cases
they cannot do that and write their own routines which must comply with the
interface.
Your proposition is probably possible, I suspect it is more complex than it
appears at first glance and who will do it? It needs to be profitable or open
source!


I thought about it in the car today and I don't think it could be
profitable, unless it was so good the printer companies were willing to
pay for a license and so not have to write their own drivers for later
OSe. They would of course still have to write the first driver. But
still this idea seems totally out of the question

And I'm not able to do it now. Not because of time but competence.

I had another idea about 8 years ago that I was not competent to do, and
I offerred the idea to a group of people who should have wanted it as
much as I did, and everyone who commented said they saw no need for it.
I don't know why they had so little foresight.

Almost 5 years went by and maybe doing it was in the back of my mind,
but one day I thought I knew how to do it. I got started and had
difficulties with things that should have been easy, but that didn't
bother me too much. It just meant a little extra time. And I was
looking into registering a domain and getting webspace to host it, and
then I thought to, again, see if it existed. I'd looked when I first
had the idea and no one had, but this time it was there.

So I didnt' get the fun of doing or the status of having done it, but I
also don't have to do the maintenance, which might be 40 hours a year
(of actual work, not counting all the inevitable other time spent) , or
pay the cost, which might be $150 a year or more. All in all I'm very
glad someone else did it. . Actually, several people I think, with
more contacts than I have, to collect money and share the work.

Maybe in 5 years I'll decide I can do this. Until then, anyone can
have my idea.

Tony


  #14  
Old August 19th 15, 01:45 AM posted to comp.periphs.printers,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
micky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 439
Default printer driver driver

In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, on Tue, 18 Aug 2015 23:26:22
+0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:

In message , micky
writes:
[things that let old hardware run under new versions of Windows]
I've never seen what I'm talking about on the web. not even one, let
alone the "some" that you talk about below.

[]
I've seen one for scanners; unfortunately it isn't free, and costs about
the same as a cheap scanner. This is sad, as it's a good product; it's
just made by a small company (Australian, I think) who aren't big enough
to be able to offer it at a lower price. (There is a free "evaluation"
version, but that puts overprinting on the result - it's intended for
you to see if your scanner works with it.)

IIRR, it's called VueScan.


Yeah, that's it. https://www.hamrick.com/reg.html

30 or 80 dollars. American dollars afaict. For the extra money you
get flim and slide scanning, OCR of text, and unnamed extra features.
I would think some people would have OCR already, even maybe from the
original ... hmm. This isn't exactly what I had in mind, I think. It
says it replaces the software. I don't know i that makes it more
expensive or less.

But still, they seem to have done it for scanners, which I was also
interested in. . There are a lot more printers and there's a a lot
more printing being done. Maybe greater volume would allow a lower
price, although I can see that printing is a lot more complicated than
scanning.

He says 400,000 people use vuescan.
  #15  
Old August 19th 15, 02:11 AM posted to comp.periphs.printers,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Tony
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 175
Default printer driver driver

micky wrote:
In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, on Tue, 18 Aug 2015 23:26:22
+0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:

In message , micky
writes:
[things that let old hardware run under new versions of Windows]
I've never seen what I'm talking about on the web. not even one, let
alone the "some" that you talk about below.

[]
I've seen one for scanners; unfortunately it isn't free, and costs about
the same as a cheap scanner. This is sad, as it's a good product; it's
just made by a small company (Australian, I think) who aren't big enough
to be able to offer it at a lower price. (There is a free "evaluation"
version, but that puts overprinting on the result - it's intended for
you to see if your scanner works with it.)

IIRR, it's called VueScan.


Yeah, that's it. https://www.hamrick.com/reg.html

30 or 80 dollars. American dollars afaict. For the extra money you
get flim and slide scanning, OCR of text, and unnamed extra features.
I would think some people would have OCR already, even maybe from the
original ... hmm. This isn't exactly what I had in mind, I think. It
says it replaces the software. I don't know i that makes it more
expensive or less.

But still, they seem to have done it for scanners, which I was also
interested in. . There are a lot more printers and there's a a lot
more printing being done. Maybe greater volume would allow a lower
price, although I can see that printing is a lot more complicated than
scanning.

He says 400,000 people use vuescan.

There is a "sort" of standard for scanning called TWAIN which if I recall
correctly stands for Technology Without An Interesting Name!
That probably makes it a little easier for applications like Vue Scan although
I don't know if they use TWAIN.
There is nothing similar for printers so far as I know.
Tony

  #16  
Old August 19th 15, 09:32 AM posted to comp.periphs.printers,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Gernot Hassenpflug[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 44
Default printer driver driver

micky writes:

In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, on Tue, 18 Aug 2015 23:26:22
+0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:

In message , micky
writes:
[things that let old hardware run under new versions of Windows]
I've never seen what I'm talking about on the web. not even one, let
alone the "some" that you talk about below.

[]
I've seen one for scanners; unfortunately it isn't free, and costs about
the same as a cheap scanner. This is sad, as it's a good product; it's
just made by a small company (Australian, I think) who aren't big enough
to be able to offer it at a lower price. (There is a free "evaluation"
version, but that puts overprinting on the result - it's intended for
you to see if your scanner works with it.)


/../

Yeah, that's it. https://www.hamrick.com/reg.html

30 or 80 dollars. American dollars afaict. For the extra money you
get flim and slide scanning, OCR of text, and unnamed extra features.


/../
But still, they seem to have done it for scanners, which I was also
interested in. . There are a lot more printers and there's a a lot
more printing being done. Maybe greater volume would allow a lower
price, although I can see that printing is a lot more complicated than
scanning.


Hi Mick,
VueScan is good stuff, really! I can recommend it even though I don't
use it. Those people work hard to reverse-engineer the scanning
protocols and idiosyncracies of individual scanners.

Under linux and MacOSX we have the SANE project for scanning, and the
gutenprint project for printing. Both provide back-ends, that is,
drivers, for the hardware. Look them up online, both are free software,
and continuously improving and keeping up with the latest devices, while
adding older one as well, best of both worlds.

The SANE project to which I contributed in the past mostly for Canon
devices, has most of the capabilities of VueScan, but OCR is not part of
the project, and unfortunately also still lacking infra-red dust removal
capability for those devices that have it physically (the new PIE
backend has it, so in future other back-ends may be able to implement
such capability also).

The gutenprint project, to which I contribute as maintainer of the Canon
backend, offers varied support for a host of printers from many
different manufacturers, mostly inkjets, and dye-sublimation devices.

Since printers use different print languages and data formats, even a
back-end for one manufacturer has tons of variations to accommodate
differences. And then occasionally one needs to create a new back-end
entirely.

Gutenprint does well for standard text and graphics printing, but has no
calibration for photo printing for different media and resolutions, so
it is up to the user to adjust individual ink densities and so on for
best performance. This is an area where the project could improve, but
also impossible without access to the printer by developers, or some
automated way for users to do themselves.

Gutenprint tries to handle all linux and MacOSX versions as far back as
possible, but because of the idiosyncracies of MacOSX, support for 10.2,
then 10.3 and 10.4, and finally 10.5 had to be dropped, and the latest
version requires 10.6 or later.

Regards,
Gernot Hassenpflug
--
NNTP on Emacs 24.3 from Windows 7
  #17  
Old August 19th 15, 02:17 PM posted to comp.periphs.printers,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
micky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 439
Default printer driver driver

In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, on Wed, 19 Aug 2015 17:32:31
+0900, Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:

micky writes:

In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, on Tue, 18 Aug 2015 23:26:22
+0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:

In message , micky
writes:
[things that let old hardware run under new versions of Windows]
I've never seen what I'm talking about on the web. not even one, let
alone the "some" that you talk about below.
[]
I've seen one for scanners; unfortunately it isn't free, and costs about
the same as a cheap scanner. This is sad, as it's a good product; it's
just made by a small company (Australian, I think) who aren't big enough
to be able to offer it at a lower price. (There is a free "evaluation"
version, but that puts overprinting on the result - it's intended for
you to see if your scanner works with it.)


/../

Yeah, that's it. https://www.hamrick.com/reg.html

30 or 80 dollars. American dollars afaict. For the extra money you
get flim and slide scanning, OCR of text, and unnamed extra features.


/../
But still, they seem to have done it for scanners, which I was also
interested in. . There are a lot more printers and there's a a lot
more printing being done. Maybe greater volume would allow a lower
price, although I can see that printing is a lot more complicated than
scanning.


Hi Mick,
VueScan is good stuff, really! I can recommend it even though I don't
use it. Those people work hard to reverse-engineer the scanning
protocols and idiosyncracies of individual scanners.

Under linux and MacOSX we have the SANE project for scanning, and the
gutenprint project for printing. Both provide back-ends, that is,
drivers, for the hardware. Look them up online, both are free software,
and continuously improving and keeping up with the latest devices, while
adding older one as well, best of both worlds.


Coincidentally -- well not really because I think my excess hardware
from win98 days is what made me think abou this in the first place --
but anyhow, yesterday I listed a flatbed scanner from win98 days on
Freecycle, and within an hour I got someone who said she's interested.

The "ad" said that it only works with a parallel port but I said some
(PCI) are as low as $5.25 and I offered to help install it, because this
scanner is new in the box and I really don't want to see it get scrapped
without ever being used.

Anyhow, though this one only has a parallel port, it does have drivers
for up to win7. Interesting, huh?

I willl tell her or whoever takes it about the software above, for when
they upgrade beyond 7.


The SANE project to which I contributed in the past mostly for Canon
devices, has most of the capabilities of VueScan, but OCR is not part of
the project,


Can't one use separate OCR software?

(I've always wanted to OCR something but in fact I never have a need for
it.)

and unfortunately also still lacking infra-red dust removal
capability for those devices that have it physically (the new PIE
backend has it, so in future other back-ends may be able to implement
such capability also).

The gutenprint project, to which I contribute as maintainer of the Canon
backend, offers varied support for a host of printers from many
different manufacturers, mostly inkjets, and dye-sublimation devices.

Since printers use different print languages and data formats, even a
back-end for one manufacturer has tons of variations to accommodate
differences. And then occasionally one needs to create a new back-end
entirely.

Gutenprint does well for standard text and graphics printing, but has no
calibration for photo printing for different media and resolutions, so
it is up to the user to adjust individual ink densities and so on for
best performance. This is an area where the project could improve, but
also impossible without access to the printer by developers, or some
automated way for users to do themselves.

Gutenprint tries to handle all linux and MacOSX versions as far back as
possible, but because of the idiosyncracies of MacOSX, support for 10.2,
then 10.3 and 10.4, and finally 10.5 had to be dropped, and the latest
version requires 10.6 or later.


Well I hope the old versions are still available, and even my friend has
upgraded to 10.6, for other reasons.

Regards,
Gernot Hassenpflug


  #18  
Old August 19th 15, 03:08 PM posted to comp.periphs.printers,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Peter[_23_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13
Default printer driver driver

On 18/08/2015 17:43, Good Guy wrote:
On 18/08/2015 13:06, micky wrote:
Seems to me, someone should be able to write a printer driver driver,
that will take the output from XP, 7, 8, or 10 and convert it to what
the output from win98 or XP would look like, to be used as input for old
printers. So that old printers -- and other accessories -- could be
used with new versions of windows.

So it woudln't have to be printer-specific,

If this won't work, how come?

It annoys me that not only do they want us to buy a new version of
Windows, which often means a new computer, but then we have to buy new
printers, etc.


Of course there are people writing drivers for old printers for new OS.
The only problem is that they have over-advertised themselves and so
people are wary of them. They stick their Ad in almost anything, even
in articles when you focus on a particular word, something pops up.
People have said enough is enough and so they just ignore them.

Do a search and you will find lots of them but be careful about them.
Some are good and some are pure evil. they will take you and your bank
to cleaners.


Interesting thought, but I'm still using a printer that I bought in the
middle of Windows 98. Works fine in 8.1, and even behaved under 10,
though I upgraded back to 8.1 pretty quickly (another story). It's HP
Deskjet3845
  #19  
Old August 19th 15, 10:01 PM posted to comp.periphs.printers,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 115
Default printer driver driver

In message , Gernot Hassenpflug
writes:
[]
VueScan is good stuff, really! I can recommend it even though I don't
use it. Those people work hard to reverse-engineer the scanning
protocols and idiosyncracies of individual scanners.

Under linux and MacOSX we have the SANE project for scanning, and the
gutenprint project for printing. Both provide back-ends, that is,
drivers, for the hardware. Look them up online, both are free software,
and continuously improving and keeping up with the latest devices, while
adding older one as well, best of both worlds.

[]
Regards,
Gernot Hassenpflug


So what chance (minimal I suspect since Windows and Linux folk on the
whole aren't too fond of each other) of someone writing a TWAIN-to-SANE,
er, driver (translator, whatever), and a Windows driver for *the*
gutenprint "printer" (not unlike the PDF "printer"s)?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Radio 4 is the civilising influence in this country ... I think it is the most
important institution in this country. - John Humphrys, Radio Times
7-13/06/2003
  #20  
Old August 19th 15, 10:06 PM posted to comp.periphs.printers,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 115
Default printer driver driver

In message , micky
writes:
In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, on Wed, 19 Aug 2015 17:32:31
+0900, Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:

[]
The SANE project to which I contributed in the past mostly for Canon
devices, has most of the capabilities of VueScan, but OCR is not part of
the project,


Can't one use separate OCR software?

[]
Yes; I get depressed (or used to) at how many people think OCR is a
function of the scanner. It isn't. Most OCR software (all that I've ever
seen) can take image files as input (albeit sometimes limited to only
the common-with-scanner formats, such as TIFF and PDF), as well as
directly "driving" a scanner. Certainly Omnipage, Abbyy (sp?), and
PagePlus (I think) can.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Radio 4 is the civilising influence in this country ... I think it is the most
important institution in this country. - John Humphrys, Radio Times
7-13/06/2003
 




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