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Motherboard killing my Hard Drives



 
 
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  #31  
Old June 7th 13, 08:59 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Paul
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Posts: 13,364
Default Motherboard killing my Hard Drives

Rodney Pont wrote:
On Fri, 07 Jun 2013 14:19:57 -0400, Paul wrote:

You can plug a 24 pin supply, into a 20 pin motherboard, like this.
Pin 1 aligns with pin 1, and there will be four pins hanging off one
end. The plastic latch on the connector, will align with its mate
on the motherboard. This will not work, if there happens to be an
electrolytic capacitor on the right-hand end of the white connector
(which sometimes happens).


With the PSUs I have the 4 pin bit unclips from the 20 pin bit so that
it converts from 24 to 20 pin if needed and latches back again.


True. I forgot to write that part up :-)

The detachable kind. Mine uses a plastic hinge, rather than
the metal hooks shown here.

http://www.playtool.com/pages/psucon...all20plus4.jpg

Paul
  #32  
Old August 1st 13, 06:27 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
[email protected]
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Posts: 53
Default Motherboard killing my Hard Drives

On Friday, June 7, 2013 3:59:19 PM UTC-4, Paul wrote:
Rodney Pont wrote: On Fri, 07 Jun 2013 14:19:57 -0400, Paul wrote: You can plug a 24 pin supply, into a 20 pin motherboard, like this. Pin 1 aligns with pin 1, and there will be four pins hanging off one end. The plastic latch on the connector, will align with its mate on the motherboard. This will not work, if there happens to be an electrolytic capacitor on the right-hand end of the white connector (which sometimes happens). With the PSUs I have the 4 pin bit unclips from the 20 pin bit so that it converts from 24 to 20 pin if needed and latches back again. True. I forgot to write that part up :-) The detachable kind. Mine uses a plastic hinge, rather than the metal hooks shown here. http://www.playtool.com/pages/psucon...all20plus4.jpg Paul


I actually use an adaptor between the power supply and Mini-ITX motherboard because the cable would not reach.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...rConnector.jpg

The adaptor is a 24 pin so 4 positions are not used.

Anyway I'm getting that screen again: http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ps2d57c187.jpg

And that is what I get no matter what har drive I plug in.

I did figure out how to test the voltages from the power supply. I used the pointing test probes and got the following voltages by sticking them into the insertion side of the power supply connector as it was on connected to the motherboard.

2.377--3.398--GND--5.08--GND--5.07--GND--4.62--GND---12.26
3.390--11.88--GND--0.222-GND--GND---GND 5.08--5.10

The hard drive connector was good also.

I'm guessing the motherboard is toast, because I can't think of anything else to do.

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.
  #33  
Old August 1st 13, 10:04 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,364
Default Motherboard killing my Hard Drives

wrote:
On Friday, June 7, 2013 3:59:19 PM UTC-4, Paul wrote:
Rodney Pont wrote: On Fri, 07 Jun 2013 14:19:57 -0400, Paul wrote: You can plug a 24 pin supply, into a 20 pin motherboard, like this. Pin 1 aligns with pin 1, and there will be four pins hanging off one end. The plastic latch on the connector, will align with its mate on the motherboard. This will not work, if there happens to be an electrolytic capacitor on the right-hand end of the white connector (which sometimes happens). With the PSUs I have the 4 pin bit unclips from the 20 pin bit so that it converts from 24 to 20 pin if needed and latches back again. True. I forgot to write that part up :-) The detachable kind. Mine uses a plastic hinge, rather than the metal hooks shown here.
http://www.playtool.com/pages/psucon...all20plus4.jpg Paul

I actually use an adaptor between the power supply and Mini-ITX motherboard because the cable would not reach.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...rConnector.jpg

The adaptor is a 24 pin so 4 positions are not used.

Anyway I'm getting that screen again: http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ps2d57c187.jpg

And that is what I get no matter what har drive I plug in.

I did figure out how to test the voltages from the power supply. I used the pointing test probes and got the following voltages by sticking them into the insertion side of the power supply connector as it was on connected to the motherboard.

2.377--3.398--GND--5.08--GND--5.07--GND--4.62--GND---12.26
3.390--11.88--GND--0.222-GND--GND---GND 5.08--5.10

The hard drive connector was good also.

I'm guessing the motherboard is toast, because I can't think of anything else to do.

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.


So, let's redraw the pinout and your voltage measurements.
Pin 1 is upper left. Pin 18 is blank (no pin).

Name Name
---- ----
2.377 3.3V X X 3.3V 3.390
3.398 3.3V X X -12V -11.88
GND COM X X COM GND
5.08 +5V X X PS_ON# 0.222 (logic low, is OK)
GND COM X X COM GND
5.07 +5V X X COM GND
4.62 PWR_OK X X -- used to be a -5V pin here (no pin now)
??? +5VSB X X +5V 5.08
12.26 +12V X X +5V 5.10

Page 30 from one of these copies of the spec. The primary site
(first link) doesn't seem to be working right.

http://www.formfactors.org/developer...X12V_1_3dg.pdf

http://web.archive.org/web/200905292...X12V_1_3dg.pdf

*******

The 2.377 reading is wrong. Check why that is happening.
Maybe you meant 3.377 ?

Note that, power supplies use "remote feedback" on one of
the 3.3V pins. On the end of the main power cable, on the
supply, you may see two wires entering a single pin. The
thinner wire, caries a "copy" of the voltage level, back
to the supply. That is how the supply measures the 3.3V more
carefully, to make sure it is adjusted right.

When you add an adapter cable on the end of a supply, it
does not properly extend the sense wire back to the supply.
And what that means, is any 3.3V drop in the extension cable,
is not compensated for by the supply. This isn't normally
a big deal, as long as the extension cable uses a decent
heavy gauge wire.

You have two 3.3V pins, where the readings are great. Only
one of the pins is way off. Take another reading. Only
if that 2.377 reading is actual, do you have a problem.
Normally, all the 3.3V pins are joined to a common copper
plane on the motherboard, so the voltages can't differ all
that much, unless a pin is snapped off.

The 4.62V on PWK_OK, is a logic level coming out of an IC.
So it doesn't have to be exactly 5V in practice. Similarly,
the PS_ON# is 0.222V, and that is a valid logic low going from
the motherboard back to the PSU. Since the PSU is running,
that looks good. In some cases, if you had around 1.2V on
PS_ON#, it is possible for an ATX power supply to be "half-on",
in which case the outputs will deliver less than the normal
flow of current (supply is "weak"). And a bad level on
PS_ON# can do that. This is because the PSU does not use
a conventional logic IC to check the level on PS_ON#,
and it's likely to be some kind of transistor circuit with
poor logic characteristics. You need good clean levels on
PS_ON#, because the power supply won't be using a Schmidt
Trigger on its end.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmidt_trigger

So the problem might not be power. As long as that 2.377
is a typing error :-)


Paul

  #34  
Old August 2nd 13, 04:55 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
[email protected]
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Posts: 53
Default Motherboard killing my Hard Drives

On Thursday, August 1, 2013 5:04:22 PM UTC-4, Paul wrote:
wrote: On Friday, June 7, 2013 3:59:19 PM UTC-4, Paul wrote: Rodney Pont wrote: On Fri, 07 Jun 2013 14:19:57 -0400, Paul wrote: You can plug a 24 pin supply, into a 20 pin motherboard, like this. Pin 1 aligns with pin 1, and there will be four pins hanging off one end. The plastic latch on the connector, will align with its mate on the motherboard. This will not work, if there happens to be an electrolytic capacitor on the right-hand end of the white connector (which sometimes happens). With the PSUs I have the 4 pin bit unclips from the 20 pin bit so that it converts from 24 to 20 pin if needed and latches back again. True. I forgot to write that part up :-) The detachable kind.. Mine uses a plastic hinge, rather than the metal hooks shown here. http://www.playtool.com/pages/psucon...all20plus4.jpg Paul I actually use an adaptor between the power supply and Mini-ITX motherboard because the cable would not reach. http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...rConnector.jpg The adaptor is a 24 pin so 4 positions are not used. Anyway I'm getting that screen again: http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ps2d57c187.jpg And that is what I get no matter what har drive I plug in. I did figure out how to test the voltages from the power supply. I used the pointing test probes and got the following voltages by sticking them into the insertion side of the power supply connector as it was on connected to the motherboard. 2.377--3.398--GND--5.08--GND--5.07--GND--4.62--GND---12.26 3.390--11.88--GND--0.222-GND--GND---GND 5.08--5.10 The hard drive connector was good also. I'm guessing the motherboard is toast, because I can't think of anything else to do. Thanks. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. So, let's redraw the pinout and your voltage measurements.. Pin 1 is upper left. Pin 18 is blank (no pin). Name Name ---- ---- 2.377 3.3V X X 3.3V 3.390 3.398 3.3V X X -12V -11.88 GND COM X X COM GND 5.08 +5V X X PS_ON# 0.222 (logic low, is OK) GND COM X X COM GND 5.07 +5V X X COM GND 4.62 PWR_OK X X -- used to be a -5V pin here (no pin now) ??? +5VSB X X +5V 5.08 12.26 +12V X X +5V 5.10 Page 30 from one of these copies of the spec. The primary site (first link) doesn't seem to be working right. http://www.formfactors.org/developer...X12V_1_3dg.pdf http://web.archive.org/web/200905292...X12V_1_3dg.pdf ******* The 2.377 reading is wrong. Check why that is happening. Maybe you meant 3.377 ? Note that, power supplies use "remote feedback" on one of the 3.3V pins. On the end of the main power cable, on the supply, you may see two wires entering a single pin. The thinner wire, caries a "copy" of the voltage level, back to the supply. That is how the supply measures the 3.3V more carefully, to make sure it is adjusted right. When you add an adapter cable on the end of a supply, it does not properly extend the sense wire back to the supply. And what that means, is any 3.3V drop in the extension cable, is not compensated for by the supply. This isn't normally a big deal, as long as the extension cable uses a decent heavy gauge wire.. You have two 3.3V pins, where the readings are great. Only one of the pins is way off. Take another reading. Only if that 2.377 reading is actual, do you have a problem. Normally, all the 3.3V pins are joined to a common copper plane on the motherboard, so the voltages can't differ all that much, unless a pin is snapped off. The 4.62V on PWK_OK, is a logic level coming out of an IC. So it doesn't have to be exactly 5V in practice. Similarly, the PS_ON# is 0.222V, and that is a valid logic low going from the motherboard back to the PSU. Since the PSU is running, that looks good. In some cases, if you had around 1.2V on PS_ON#, it is possible for an ATX power supply to be "half-on", in which case the outputs will deliver less than the normal flow of current (supply is "weak"). And a bad level on PS_ON# can do that.. This is because the PSU does not use a conventional logic IC to check the level on PS_ON#, and it's likely to be some kind of transistor circuit with poor logic characteristics. You need good clean levels on PS_ON#, because the power supply won't be using a Schmidt Trigger on its end. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmidt_trigger So the problem might not be power. As long as that 2.377 is a typing error :-) Paul


Yes, that should have been 3.377V.

There are no positions that have two leads in the connector.

And the adaopter I have actually has thicker guage leads than the wires comiong from the power supply.

Since this is the Mini-ITX board that has been killing my hard drives I can only assume that it is a problem buried deep in the software/chips, as odd as that sounds. (Unless there are power spikes from the power supply that I'm not catching).

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.
  #35  
Old August 2nd 13, 07:38 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,364
Default Motherboard killing my Hard Drives

wrote:
On Thursday, August 1, 2013 5:04:22 PM UTC-4, Paul wrote:
wrote: On Friday, June 7, 2013 3:59:19 PM UTC-4, Paul wrote: Rodney Pont wrote: On Fri, 07 Jun 2013 14:19:57 -0400, Paul wrote: You can plug a 24 pin supply, into a 20 pin motherboard, like this. Pin 1 aligns with pin 1, and there will be four pins hanging off one end. The plastic latch on the connector, will align with its mate on the motherboard. This will not work, if there happens to be an electrolytic capacitor on the right-hand end of the white connector (which sometimes happens). With the PSUs I have the 4 pin bit unclips from the 20 pin bit so that it converts from 24 to 20 pin if needed and latches back again. True. I forgot to write that part up :-) The detachable kind. Mine uses a plastic hinge, rather than the metal hooks shown here. http://www.playtool.com/pages/psucon...all20plus4.jpg Paul I actually use an adaptor between the power supply and Mini-ITX motherboard because the cable would n
ot reach. http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...rConnector.jpg The adaptor is a 24 pin so 4 positions are not used. Anyway I'm getting that screen again: http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ps2d57c187.jpg And that is what I get no matter what har drive I plug in. I did figure out how to test the voltages from the power supply. I used the pointing test probes and got the following voltages by sticking them into the insertion side of the power supply connector as it was on connected to the motherboard. 2.377--3.398--GND--5.08--GND--5.07--GND--4.62--GND---12.26 3.390--11.88--GND--0.222-GND--GND---GND 5.08--5.10 The hard drive connector was good also. I'm guessing the motherboard is toast, because I can't think of anything else to do. Thanks. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. So, let's redraw the pinout and your voltage measurements. Pin 1 is upper left. Pin 1
8 is blank (no pin). Name Name ---- ---- 2.377 3.3V X X 3.3V 3.390 3.398 3.3V X X -12V -11.88 GND COM X X COM GND 5.08 +5V X X PS_ON# 0.222 (logic low, is OK) GND COM X X COM GND 5.07 +5V X X COM GND 4.62 PWR_OK X X -- used to be a -5V pin here (no pin now) ??? +5VSB X X +5V 5.08 12.26 +12V X X +5V 5.10 Page 30 from one of these copies of the spec. The primary site (first link) doesn't seem to be working right. http://www.formfactors.org/developer...X12V_1_3dg.pdf http://web.archive.org/web/200905292...X12V_1_3dg.pdf ******* The 2.377 reading is wrong. Check why that is happening. Maybe you meant 3.377 ? Note that, power supplies use "remote feedback" on one of the 3.3V pins. On the end of the main power cable, on the supply, you may see two wires entering a single pin. The thinner wire, caries a "copy" of the voltage level, back to the supply. That is how the supply measures the 3.3V more carefully, to make sure
it is adjusted right. When you add an adapter cable on the end of a supply, it does not properly extend the sense wire back to the supply. And what that means, is any 3.3V drop in the extension cable, is not compensated for by the supply. This isn't normally a big deal, as long as the extension cable uses a decent heavy gauge wire. You have two 3.3V pins, where the readings are great. Only one of the pins is way off. Take another reading. Only if that 2.377 reading is actual, do you have a problem. Normally, all the 3.3V pins are joined to a common copper plane on the motherboard, so the voltages can't differ all that much, unless a pin is snapped off. The 4.62V on PWK_OK, is a logic level coming out of an IC. So it doesn't have to be exactly 5V in practice. Similarly, the PS_ON# is 0.222V, and that is a valid logic low going from the motherboard back to the PSU. Since the PSU is running, that looks good. In some cases, if you had around 1.2V on PS_ON#, it is possible for an
ATX power supply to be "half-on", in which case the outputs will deliver less than the normal flow of current (supply is "weak"). And a bad level on PS_ON# can do that. This is because the PSU does not use a conventional logic IC to check the level on PS_ON#, and it's likely to be some kind of transistor circuit with poor logic characteristics. You need good clean levels on PS_ON#, because the power supply won't be using a Schmidt Trigger on its end. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmidt_trigger So the problem might not be power. As long as that 2.377 is a typing error :-) Paul

Yes, that should have been 3.377V.

There are no positions that have two leads in the connector.

And the adaopter I have actually has thicker guage leads than the wires comiong from the power supply.

Since this is the Mini-ITX board that has been killing my hard drives I can only assume that it is a problem buried deep in the software/chips, as odd as that sounds. (Unless there are power spikes from the power supply that I'm not catching).

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.


OK, here's an idea. If the native disk interface is IDE,
connect an IDE to SATA adapter, and use a SATA drive instead.
The adapter then, would "take the abuse" from the motherboard.
See if there is still a problem after doing that.

For example, this one is bidirectional, so you have to
wire it up correctly, to go from IDE motherboard to
SATA hard drive. Using this, is just a means of
digitally isolating the motherboard from the hard drive,
and see if the "damage" source remains the motherboard.
If the adapter is "blown out", then you know there is
something seriously screwy on the IDE cable.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16812186078

Now, this kind of adapter, you can put two of these on an IDE cable.
(The previous one, might only allow one drive per IDE motherboard
connector.) This adapter has a "Master/Slave" jumper, and if using
two adapters, you assign them unique identifiers (one master, the
other slave). If you had a single IDE ribbon, a hard drive and
an optical drive, two of this adapter would allow both to be adapted.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16812200156

If there was a spare PCI slot, you could plug in a PCI to IDE
controller board. As a means of bypassing the motherboard path.
That would be another way to do it. You'd need to install the
driver in the OS, for the card, before moving the cable over
from the motherboard IDE to the card IDE. Then, it should be
able to boot from the storage card.

Paul
 




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