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#21
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Motherboard killing my Hard Drives
"Ting Hsu" wrote in message ... On Apr 25, 1:28 pm, Loren Pechtel wrote: Yup, I've had the same thing happen. I pulled a drive out of an old box where it was half of a RAID array--oops, I couldn't read it. I had to put some bits in and fire up the old box to pull the file I wanted. My suggestion on raid is to use the built in Windows 7 or Linux, OS based raid, whenever possible. Since the OS handles the raid, it means that if your machine crashes, you can just pull the drive and put it into another box, and it will be read like any other drive, with very little work. As long as you stick with the same OS, or even an upgraded version of that OS, you are good to go. This is a lot better situation than a hardware raid, where you almost always need compatible hardware to read the raid drives. And sometimes compatible hardware is tough to find, as hardware companies are upgrading their raid hardware on a yearly basis. Seems to me that RAID defeats the whole point of RAID! A member of another group was occasionally offline, when he eventually re-appeared he explained that his RAID controller had died and the computer shop no longer stocked that exact card - so it took him up to weeks to get his PC up and running again! AFAIK - he's abandoned the use of RAID altogether. |
#22
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Motherboard killing my Hard Drives
On 4/26/2013 10:09 AM, Ian Field wrote:
"Ting Hsu" wrote in message ... On Apr 25, 1:28 pm, Loren Pechtel wrote: Yup, I've had the same thing happen. I pulled a drive out of an old box where it was half of a RAID array--oops, I couldn't read it. I had to put some bits in and fire up the old box to pull the file I wanted. My suggestion on raid is to use the built in Windows 7 or Linux, OS based raid, whenever possible. Since the OS handles the raid, it means that if your machine crashes, you can just pull the drive and put it into another box, and it will be read like any other drive, with very little work. As long as you stick with the same OS, or even an upgraded version of that OS, you are good to go. This is a lot better situation than a hardware raid, where you almost always need compatible hardware to read the raid drives. And sometimes compatible hardware is tough to find, as hardware companies are upgrading their raid hardware on a yearly basis. Seems to me that RAID defeats the whole point of RAID! A member of another group was occasionally offline, when he eventually re-appeared he explained that his RAID controller had died and the computer shop no longer stocked that exact card - so it took him up to weeks to get his PC up and running again! AFAIK - he's abandoned the use of RAID altogether. Raid hardware failure was one reason the IP department of the company I worked at had a brand new, but tested, spare raid card and software boxed up and locked inside the server cabinet. Servers they could get in an emergency from other locations in the company, like development labs and such but they wanted a matching raid card on hand to rebuild things with if the worst happened. True, they had off-site backup's of the actual data but that was offline, not online as far as the users were concerned. |
#23
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Motherboard killing my Hard Drives
Ian Field wrote:
"Ting Hsu" wrote in message ... On Apr 25, 1:28 pm, Loren Pechtel wrote: Yup, I've had the same thing happen. I pulled a drive out of an old box where it was half of a RAID array--oops, I couldn't read it. I had to put some bits in and fire up the old box to pull the file I wanted. My suggestion on raid is to use the built in Windows 7 or Linux, OS based raid, whenever possible. Since the OS handles the raid, it means that if your machine crashes, you can just pull the drive and put it into another box, and it will be read like any other drive, with very little work. As long as you stick with the same OS, or even an upgraded version of that OS, you are good to go. This is a lot better situation than a hardware raid, where you almost always need compatible hardware to read the raid drives. And sometimes compatible hardware is tough to find, as hardware companies are upgrading their raid hardware on a yearly basis. Seems to me that RAID defeats the whole point of RAID! A member of another group was occasionally offline, when he eventually re-appeared he explained that his RAID controller had died and the computer shop no longer stocked that exact card - so it took him up to weeks to get his PC up and running again! AFAIK - he's abandoned the use of RAID altogether. Generally, what you need, is the same *brand* of RAID card. It doesn't have to be the same model of controller. For example, on Promise cards, a newer Promise card will recognize the metadata on a disk, put there by an older Promise card. So your array will come up, on a newer card. Tomshardware had an article years ago, where they tested that, and found a reasonable level of same-brand compatibility. (One Intel RAID, will recognize another Intel RAID array. A Promise will recognize a Promise. A Promise will not recognize an Intel. That sort of thing.) If the brand of controller is obscure, or the controller company went out of business five years ago, then yes, buying and keeping an identical card, helps. Companies with bottomless pits of money for IT, would buy and keep a replacement RAID card, for each RAID type in service. An example of a situation to be watched, would be if you own an NVidia motherboard, and are using NVRAID. Since NVidia doesn't make desktop chipsets any more, a user having a failure of their NVRAID array, could have a mess to clean up. (Look on Ebay for another motherboard.) You should be able to manually de-interleave a RAID array, so the data should be recoverable. It's not like the data is lost. It's merely inconvenient to restore it. On a RAID 5, you know there are going to be blocks of XOR data, for protection, so there's a pattern to what is on the disks. And the appropriate data recovery software ($$$), can figure it out. The reason the software is ($$$), is because the software company writing such software, can charge what the market will bear. If any form of encryption was involved, then, you'd be screwed. Better have good backups in that case. Paul |
#24
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Motherboard killing my Hard Drives
On Apr 25, 5:01*am, Paul wrote:
tumppiw wrote: On 24.4.2013 1:07, wrote: Over the last several days I lost the ability to boot from three hard drives. When one went down I plugged in another only to have it follow suit. The following is the screen I get when I power on the PC. http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l.../Computer/Driv.... Obviously there is an issue with the motherboard because one can only give coincidence so much credit. Each time it's happened was on "power up" after a previously successful "power off". So it wasn't as if the PC crashed beforehand or exhibited any unusual behavior to signify that the next boot up attempt would fail. Can anyone tell me what the possible problems is and a solution so this system doesn't do the same to the fourth drive I just plugged in? Thanks. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. For some strange reason, you're trying to boot from the network, not from internal disks.. I don't have a second computer, so I can't check how one disabled that function in the BIOS PXE boot code typically runs, if a disk cannot be found. On a good BIOS, you can go into the hardware setup, and disable the boot ROM for the NIC, and stop those messages from appearing. The "disk boot failure", means that none of the devices in the boot order, were located. * * Paul I have no choice but to use this system until I can get another. The drive is still holding, but the PC will sometimes freeze or crash and restart. I then get this 9 out of 10 times: http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ps2d57c187.jpg Though I got this once: http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ps44114a74.jpg I attempted to test the power supply, but for some really strange reason I can't get it to turn on when it is disconnected from the motherboard and drives. I shorted the green "Power-on" pin to the ground next to it by sticking some 18g stranded wire into both, but it still wouldn't turn on. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. |
#25
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Motherboard killing my Hard Drives
Searcher7 wrote:
On Apr 25, 5:01 am, Paul wrote: tumppiw wrote: On 24.4.2013 1:07, wrote: Over the last several days I lost the ability to boot from three hard drives. When one went down I plugged in another only to have it follow suit. The following is the screen I get when I power on the PC. http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l.../Computer/Driv... Obviously there is an issue with the motherboard because one can only give coincidence so much credit. Each time it's happened was on "power up" after a previously successful "power off". So it wasn't as if the PC crashed beforehand or exhibited any unusual behavior to signify that the next boot up attempt would fail. Can anyone tell me what the possible problems is and a solution so this system doesn't do the same to the fourth drive I just plugged in? Thanks. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. For some strange reason, you're trying to boot from the network, not from internal disks.. I don't have a second computer, so I can't check how one disabled that function in the BIOS PXE boot code typically runs, if a disk cannot be found. On a good BIOS, you can go into the hardware setup, and disable the boot ROM for the NIC, and stop those messages from appearing. The "disk boot failure", means that none of the devices in the boot order, were located. Paul I have no choice but to use this system until I can get another. The drive is still holding, but the PC will sometimes freeze or crash and restart. I then get this 9 out of 10 times: http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ps2d57c187.jpg Though I got this once: http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ps44114a74.jpg I attempted to test the power supply, but for some really strange reason I can't get it to turn on when it is disconnected from the motherboard and drives. I shorted the green "Power-on" pin to the ground next to it by sticking some 18g stranded wire into both, but it still wouldn't turn on. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. Verify your pinout. Just in case the colors on the harness are wrong. (20 pin modern - page 30 - pin 14 is PS_ON#, COM on either side) http://www.formfactors.org/developer...X12V_1_3dg.pdf (24 pin modern - page 37 - pin 16 is PS_ON#...) http://www.formfactors.org/developer...public_br2.pdf If a power supply "latches off" on a fault, you would need to flip the switch on the back to the off position, wait 30 seconds, then flip it on again. Then try holding PS_ON# to COM, for as long as you want the PSU to run. If the power supply is latching off, it may be "weak" and need replacement. If I was present in the room, I'd have my multimeter out by now, set to 20V full scale, and would be doing a lap of the main connector pins while the computer is running. Just to see if the voltages are within 5% of nominal. Then, I'd repeat with Prime95 running, to add some electrical load. There are several ways to kill a hard drive. 1) The hard drive has devices across +5 to GND and +12 to GND, to absorb transients (such as disconnecting a drive "hot"). If the power supply goes to 7V and 15V perhaps, those components burn. Too much PSU voltage, will damage a drive. 2) The SATA and IDE, use relatively low voltages for operation. Sending a voltage down the line, outside the allowed range, burns the I/O. So those are ways the disk could get ruined. Using my multimeter, I'm effectively checking for (1). With (2), the motherboard I/O are likely to be ruined, so no further connected hard drives would ever be detected. And yet, if you connect new drives, they are present for a period of time. Thus, I suspect (1). The reason (2) is less common, is the entire motherboard might be ruined by the root cause of such a thing, rather than just blowing out the disk I/O. If it was (2), maybe the motherboard would simply have stopped POSTing entirely. Test with another power supply, if you have any doubts. Check Newegg reviews, to find units with good reports. Paul |
#26
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Motherboard killing my Hard Drives
On Sun, 2 Jun 2013 12:04:14 -0700 (PDT), Searcher7
wrote: I attempted to test the power supply, but for some really strange reason I can't get it to turn on when it is disconnected from the motherboard and drives. I shorted the green "Power-on" pin to the ground next to it by sticking some 18g stranded wire into both, but it still wouldn't turn on. A power supply, simply approached, should be effectively connected to the MB when turned on, with both components being also in excellent working order. Beyond which even 5 years is OK, 10 being an excellent run for your money. (Know someone with a 12 year old computer I built. Once when I tried and warn him, he got ****ed ... 'Are you TELLING me my computer is going to break now?') I know you're not exactly in a rush to drop more money, but when considering either MB or PS, I try and buy the best I can afford. Usually well within budget considerations, discounting for sales, rebates, and such, even if they've been a bit sparse of late with the PC economy the way it is facing a mobile front. And, yes, I do firmly believe I lost one of my three golden 200G Seagates due an ailing ASUS MB. Tremendously robust HDs, although I dicked around with that ASUS too long and got the horns for it to show. Bad power supplies and bad motherboards, when they're bad they can be really bad. Want to hear the saddest song ever sung -- a HD may cost more than to replace both with viable quality sales items. I must have fed that ASUS at least 3 power supplies. Should have known a damn sight better than to keep on doing it. But, like some people, I too was getting by. . . |
#27
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Motherboard killing my Hard Drives
On Sunday, June 2, 2013 3:30:38 PM UTC-4, Paul wrote:
Searcher7 wrote: On Apr 25, 5:01 am, Paul wrote: tumppiw wrote: On 24.4.2013 1:07, wrote: Over the last several days I lost the ability to boot from three hard drives. When one went down I plugged in another only to have it follow suit. The following is the screen I get when I power on the PC. http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l.../Computer/Driv... Obviously there is an issue with the motherboard because one can only give coincidence so much credit. Each time it's happened was on "power up" after a previously successful "power off". So it wasn't as if the PC crashed beforehand or exhibited any unusual behavior to signify that the next boot up attempt would fail. Can anyone tell me what the possible problems is and a solution so this system doesn't do the same to the fourth drive I just plugged in? Thanks. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. For some strange reason, you're trying to boot from the network, not from internal disks.. I don't have a second computer, so I can't check how one disabled that function in the BIOS PXE boot code typically runs, if a disk cannot be found. On a good BIOS, you can go into the hardware setup, and disable the boot ROM for the NIC, and stop those messages from appearing. The "disk boot failure", means that none of the devices in the boot order, were located. Paul I have no choice but to use this system until I can get another. The drive is still holding, but the PC will sometimes freeze or crash and restart. I then get this 9 out of 10 times: http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ps2d57c187.jpg Though I got this once: http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ps44114a74.jpg I attempted to test the power supply, but for some really strange reason I can't get it to turn on when it is disconnected from the motherboard and drives. I shorted the green "Power-on" pin to the ground next to it by sticking some 18g stranded wire into both, but it still wouldn't turn on. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. Verify your pinout. Just in case the colors on the harness are wrong. (20 pin modern - page 30 - pin 14 is PS_ON#, COM on either side) http://www.formfactors.org/developer...X12V_1_3dg.pdf (24 pin modern - page 37 - pin 16 is PS_ON#...) http://www.formfactors.org/developer...public_br2.pdf If a power supply "latches off" on a fault, you would need to flip the switch on the back to the off position, wait 30 seconds, then flip it on again. Then try holding PS_ON# to COM, for as long as you want the PSU to run. If the power supply is latching off, it may be "weak" and need replacement. If I was present in the room, I'd have my multimeter out by now, set to 20V full scale, and would be doing a lap of the main connector pins while the computer is running. Just to see if the voltages are within 5% of nominal. Then, I'd repeat with Prime95 running, to add some electrical load. There are several ways to kill a hard drive. 1) The hard drive has devices across +5 to GND and +12 to GND, to absorb transients (such as disconnecting a drive "hot"). If the power supply goes to 7V and 15V perhaps, those components burn. Too much PSU voltage, will damage a drive. 2) The SATA and IDE, use relatively low voltages for operation. Sending a voltage down the line, outside the allowed range, burns the I/O. So those are ways the disk could get ruined. Using my multimeter, I'm effectively checking for (1). With (2), the motherboard I/O are likely to be ruined, so no further connected hard drives would ever be detected. And yet, if you connect new drives, they are present for a period of time. Thus, I suspect (1). The reason (2) is less common, is the entire motherboard might be ruined by the root cause of such a thing, rather than just blowing out the disk I/O. If it was (2), maybe the motherboard would simply have stopped POSTing entirely. Test with another power supply, if you have any doubts. Check Newegg reviews, to find units with good reports. Paul I know the pinouts are correct. I rechecked several times with the ITX motherboard pinouts in the manual and also online. I'm not sure what "latches off" means, but there is no switch on the back of the power supply. (This is a mini-ITX PC which I've really only been using since January). And I don't see a way to test the power supply with it connected to the motherboard. (And again, I cannot buy any new hardware). I'll take a look at hooking up one of my regular size ATX power supplies to this system for a while to see if it experiences the same symptoms. But since the ITX motherboard has a 20 pin main connector, I'm not sure I can do that. Thanks. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. |
#28
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Motherboard killing my Hard Drives
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#29
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Motherboard killing my Hard Drives
wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2013 3:30:38 PM UTC-4, Paul wrote: Searcher7 wrote: On Apr 25, 5:01 am, Paul wrote: tumppiw wrote: On 24.4.2013 1:07, wrote: Over the last several days I lost the ability to boot from three hard drives. When one went down I plugged in another only to have it follow suit. The following is the screen I get when I power on the PC. http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l.../Computer/Driv... Obviously there is an issue with the motherboard because one can only give coincidence so much credit. Each time it's happened was on "power up" after a previously successful "power off". So it wasn't as if the PC crashed beforehand or exhibited any unusual behavior to signify that the next boot up attempt would fail. Can anyone tell me what the possible problems is and a solution so this system doesn't do the same to the fourth drive I just plugged in? Thanks. Darren Harris State n Island, New York. For some strange reason, you're trying to boot from the network, not from internal disks.. I don't have a second computer, so I can't check how one disabled that function in the BIOS PXE boot code typically runs, if a disk cannot be found. On a good BIOS, you can go into the hardware setup, and disable the boot ROM for the NIC, and stop those messages from appearing. The "disk boot failure", means that none of the devices in the boot order, were located. Paul I have no choice but to use this system until I can get another. The drive is still holding, but the PC will sometimes freeze or crash and restart. I then get this 9 out of 10 times: http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ps2d57c187.jpg Though I got this once: http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...ps44114a74.jpg I attempted to test the power supply, but for some really strange reason I can't get it to turn on when it is disconnected from the motherboard and drives. I shorted the green "Power-on" pin to the ground next to it by sticking some 18g stranded wire into both, but it still wouldn't turn on. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. Verify your pinout. Just in case the colors on the harness are wrong. (20 pin modern - page 30 - pin 14 is PS_ON#, COM on either side) http://www.formfactors.org/developer...X12V_1_3dg.pdf (24 pin modern - page 37 - pin 16 is PS_ON#...) http://www.formfactors.org/developer...public_br2.pdf If a power supply "latches off" on a fault, you would need to flip the switch on the back to the off position, wait 30 seconds, then flip it on again. Then try holding PS_ON# to COM, for as long as you want the PSU to run. If the power supply is latching off, it may be "weak" and need replacement. If I was present in the room, I'd have my multimeter out by now, set to 20V full scale, and would be doing a lap of the main connector pins while the computer is running. Just to see if the voltages are within 5% of nominal. Then, I'd repeat with Prime95 running, to add some electrical load. There are several ways to kill a hard drive. 1) The hard drive has devices across +5 to GND and +12 to GND, to absorb transients (such as disconnecting a drive "hot"). If the power supply goes to 7V and 15V perhaps, those components burn. Too much PSU voltage, will damage a drive. 2) The SATA and IDE, use relatively low voltages for operation. Sending a voltage down the line, outside the allowed range, burns the I/O. So those are ways the disk could get ruined. Using my multimeter, I'm effectively checking for (1). With (2), the motherboard I/O are likely to be ruined, so no further connected hard drives would ever be detected. And yet, if you connect new drives, they are present for a period of time. Thus, I suspect (1). The reason (2) is less common, is the entire motherboard might be ruined by the root cause of such a thing, rather than just blowing out the disk I/O. If it was (2), maybe the motherboard would simply have stopped POSTing entirely. Test with another power supply, if you have any doubts. Check Newegg reviews, to find units with good reports. Paul I know the pinouts are correct. I rechecked several times with the ITX motherboard pinouts in the manual and also online. I'm not sure what "latches off" means, but there is no switch on the back of the power supply. (This is a mini-ITX PC which I've really only been using since January). And I don't see a way to test the power supply with it connected to the motherboard. (And again, I cannot buy any new hardware). I'll take a look at hooking up one of my regular size ATX power supplies to this system for a while to see if it experiences the same symptoms. But since the ITX motherboard has a 20 pin main connector, I'm not sure I can do that. Thanks. Darren Harris Staten Island, New York. There is information on connectors here. http://www.playtool.com/pages/psucon...onnectors.html You can plug a 24 pin supply, into a 20 pin motherboard, like this. Pin 1 aligns with pin 1, and there will be four pins hanging off one end. The plastic latch on the connector, will align with its mate on the motherboard. This will not work, if there happens to be an electrolytic capacitor on the right-hand end of the white connector (which sometimes happens). http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/24in20.jpg You can also plug a 20 into a 24. Again, pin 1 to pin 1, latches mating. The 24 pin ends up with four pins unconnected, but they are redundant pins. The motherboard still works. Only if a couple 6600 video cards were installed, would there be a problem with too much current flowing in the single yellow wire. Your mini-ITX would not allow that anyway (not enough expansion slots). http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/20in24.jpg When I need to measure voltages on the connector (taking last picture as a reference), if I look down into the back of the power supply connector (black), I will see exposed metal for each crimped pin. Those side-angle photos don't show enough of the back of the connector, to make that apparent. I shove the multimeter probe, into the back of the PSU connector, to take measurements. I sometimes use a needle probe (sewing needle with wire wrapped around the outside to hold it in place), for recessed measurements. So it is possible to get a measurement off the thing. ******* I purchased an extension cable at the computer store, like this. http://www.playtool.com/pages/psucon...o24adapter.jpg Those come in various combinations. 20 to 20. 24 to 20. The 20 to 20 (cost me $8.00), could be used to solve the problem of a capacitor getting in the way of plugging a 24 PSU to a 20 motherboard. The nice cables, will be constructed with proper wire colors, to hint at proper connection. But the one I bought, they didn't bother with proper color coding. And $8 was a bit much for such a thing. It should have been cheaper than that. You can also build your own cables. My one good electronics store in town, used to stock all the parts. That's how I got the connector bits, to build my own load box for PSU testing. ******* A "latching" power supply, is one in which the voltage regulator detects a current flow fault (short circuit), and the regulator shuts off and "remembers" that a fault has occurred. It does this, to prevent fire or damage, and is appropriate for high power devices. It takes electricity to do the "remembering", and completely turning off the flow of power (unplug from wall if need be), will reset the detection feature. There were some other power devices, where "put put" mode is used. The regulating device, retries about once a second, and shuts off immediately if overcurrent is detected again. Circuits that retry, are good for situations where you know there may be a heavy load at startup, which might trigger overcurrent, but you are confident it will resolve itself. A circuit like that, may detect just one overcurrent event at startup, retry, and come all the way up. So that is the other philosophy of design. That was popular with things around the year 2000. If there is a real short circuit, the physical location where the fault is may get warm or hot, from the retries happening once a second. With the power circuit that latches off, things remain ice cold (safe). ******* The pico supplies, use a DC-DC converter on a circuit board, to convert voltage from a wall adapter, into multiple DC voltages for a miniITX board. This could be the style of power source you have for your mini-ITX. These are available, up to about 120 watts. The one pictured here is rated for 80 watts max. http://static.mini-itx.com/store/ima...-picopsu80.jpg You power the input of a pico supply, with a wall adapter like this one. This is rated 110 watts for example, enough to run a pico 80. You are expected to read the voltage rating of the two devices (input range), to make sure you're mating "like with like". http://www.mini-itx.com/store/images/psu.jpg There are some pico supplies, intended for automotive usage, with wide input range, and cutoff to prevent total draining of the car battery. Plenty of fun toys for mini-ITX users, assuming the mini-ITX actually does something useful for them... Paul |
#30
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Motherboard killing my Hard Drives
On Fri, 07 Jun 2013 14:19:57 -0400, Paul wrote:
You can plug a 24 pin supply, into a 20 pin motherboard, like this. Pin 1 aligns with pin 1, and there will be four pins hanging off one end. The plastic latch on the connector, will align with its mate on the motherboard. This will not work, if there happens to be an electrolytic capacitor on the right-hand end of the white connector (which sometimes happens). With the PSUs I have the 4 pin bit unclips from the 20 pin bit so that it converts from 24 to 20 pin if needed and latches back again. -- Regards - Rodney Pont The from address exists but is mostly dumped, please send any emails to the address below e-mail rpont (at) gmail (dot) com |
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