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Hard Disk Slow Down After Image Recovery



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 24th 17, 10:21 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
John B. Smith
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Posts: 163
Default Hard Disk Slow Down After Image Recovery

Today my XP went off the tracks. I think it booted normally but when I
used Agent and Eudora to get hearders and check mail at the same time,
something got messed up bigtime. Agent seemed to freeze, but did work
after a while. Tried a reboot, things got stalled when my bat was
saving email. I finally pushed the Start Button to turn off. On reboot
things were REALLY messed up and Avast anti-virus refused to work. My
last Macrium backup was August 28, but it would have to do. And it
did, though I worked thru it painfully slow as I haden't done it in a
long time. Imaged the backup back on in 20 minutes. Took a long bootup
but everything looked normal. Messed a while with my saved email
rescuing stuff. I do have a bat but I don't trust it. Core Temp
reported 6% usage on both cores all the time???. Anyway, I thought I
better do a fresh Macrium backup. Got it started and saw the estimated
end time was 5 hours! HD Tune then said my 500G drive was running xfer
speedof 3 megabytes/sec! The 1 gig drive was its usual 170MB/sec.
Rebooted and all was ok.

Finally my question is why was the 500g boot drive running so slow on
its first boot after the recovery? Is that typical?
  #2  
Old September 24th 17, 10:49 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Flasherly[_2_]
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Posts: 2,407
Default Hard Disk Slow Down After Image Recovery

On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 17:21:55 -0400, John B. Smith
wrote:

Today my XP went off the tracks. I think it booted normally but when I
used Agent and Eudora to get hearders and check mail at the same time,
something got messed up bigtime. Agent seemed to freeze, but did work
after a while. Tried a reboot, things got stalled when my bat was
saving email. I finally pushed the Start Button to turn off. On reboot
things were REALLY messed up and Avast anti-virus refused to work. My
last Macrium backup was August 28, but it would have to do. And it
did, though I worked thru it painfully slow as I haden't done it in a
long time. Imaged the backup back on in 20 minutes. Took a long bootup
but everything looked normal. Messed a while with my saved email
rescuing stuff. I do have a bat but I don't trust it. Core Temp
reported 6% usage on both cores all the time???. Anyway, I thought I
better do a fresh Macrium backup. Got it started and saw the estimated
end time was 5 hours! HD Tune then said my 500G drive was running xfer
speedof 3 megabytes/sec! The 1 gig drive was its usual 170MB/sec.
Rebooted and all was ok.

Finally my question is why was the 500g boot drive running so slow on
its first boot after the recovery? Is that typical?


Something's off with those transfer speeds. Not that 170MB/sec is par
here, but by binary transfers of the OS, I regularly run at least a
couple times a month, take 45 seconds for close to a gigabyte over a
compressed Windows' image. Probably half your speeds when favoring
various SSD involvements with mechanical drives.

(I practice installing programs elsewhere, not on the same partitions
as the OS.)

You need to establish what's affecting the HDD. Whether software
drivers are off and settings wrong. I wouldn't necessarily suspect
cabling, ports, to the MB's controller chip. Nor the HDD,
particularly. Testing them may be involved, however. Also, it may
involve an OS reinstall if your imagery methods aren't proving to be
helpful. (I'm using imaging software from the mid-90s, and it's
always been a prime and crucial aspect to my ordering of dedicated
backups for the OS.)
  #3  
Old September 24th 17, 10:54 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Flasherly[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,407
Default Hard Disk Slow Down After Image Recovery

On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 17:49:05 -0400, Flasherly
wrote:

(I'm using imaging software from the mid-90s, and it's
always been a prime and crucial aspect to my ordering of dedicated
backups for the OS.)


I perform Windows OS imagery backups viz a boot arbitrator, booting
into an old DOS OS system, from the 90's, on its own partition. I'm
getting then the so-called "native" transfer throughput speeds from
the MB.
  #4  
Old September 24th 17, 11:44 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Paul[_28_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,467
Default Hard Disk Slow Down After Image Recovery

John B. Smith wrote:
Today my XP went off the tracks. I think it booted normally but when I
used Agent and Eudora to get hearders and check mail at the same time,
something got messed up bigtime. Agent seemed to freeze, but did work
after a while. Tried a reboot, things got stalled when my bat was
saving email. I finally pushed the Start Button to turn off. On reboot
things were REALLY messed up and Avast anti-virus refused to work. My
last Macrium backup was August 28, but it would have to do. And it
did, though I worked thru it painfully slow as I haden't done it in a
long time. Imaged the backup back on in 20 minutes. Took a long bootup
but everything looked normal. Messed a while with my saved email
rescuing stuff. I do have a bat but I don't trust it. Core Temp
reported 6% usage on both cores all the time???. Anyway, I thought I
better do a fresh Macrium backup. Got it started and saw the estimated
end time was 5 hours! HD Tune then said my 500G drive was running xfer
speedof 3 megabytes/sec! The 1 gig drive was its usual 170MB/sec.
Rebooted and all was ok.

Finally my question is why was the 500g boot drive running so slow on
its first boot after the recovery? Is that typical?


Is your 500GB drive on IDE (ribbon cable) ?

The IDE drives went up to 750GB. That's the largest
disk they made for IDE. My collection of disks, my
largest IDE drive is 250GB.

I picked IDE because it has the same sort of domain
validation as SCSI drives use. A SCSI drive can "gear down"
if errors are detected. This is intended to improve data
transfer error rate, at the expense of transfer speed.
It's a "safety feature" for unattended operation in a server room.
The driver does the magic, and not the disk itself.

Microsoft decided it would be fun to do that for IDE too.

The IDE one gears down, again and again, until it is in a slow PIO mode.

I've not heard of any attempt to do that for SATA.

*******

The "Workaround" section, half way down this page, recommended
uninstalling the boot drive in Device Manager.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-ca/...-out-or-crc-er

devmgmt.msc

Expand the IDE ATA/ATAPI Controllers node.

Double-click the controller for which you want
to restore the typical DMA transfer mode.

Click the Driver tab.
Click Uninstall.

When the process completes, restart your computer. When
Windows restarts, the hard disk controller is re-enumerated and
the transfer mode is reset to the default value for each device
that is connected to the controller.

*******

I can't imagine how Agent and Eudora got into one anothers road.
Maybe in fact, with both running, Avast had to scan the files
both of those were opening and Avast was a little busy too ?

*******

You should check the SMART statistics for the drive,
and see if the Reallocation thing has gone non-zero.
In this example, Reallocated has 9 errors. The tool used
here, is free for download.

http://atm.cyberec.com/~hello/pictures/Clipboard01.jpg

http://www.hdtune.com/files/hdtune_255.exe

If you do the math, and use the predicted percentage,
that field goes up to around 5000 errors or so. And
we have no way of knowing, how that relates to real allocations.
That statistic is "thresholded". When the disk is new, the
manufacturer doesn't want you to know how many errors are
present from the factory. There are actually *always*
allocation errors from the factory. The hard drive has
an acceptance criterion, and the number of errors might
be 100000 for acceptance. When you see 5000 in that SMART
display, the total number of reallocated sectors might be
105,000. But because this is not documented, you're on
your own in terms of interpretation. The people who
invented the SMART interface, don't go into the details
of running a disk business, and they aren't about to
explain "thresholding" to the public :-)

My theory:

0 ..100000 Show 0 in SMART Display
100001..105000 Show 1..5000 in SMART Display
Like "9" in the example picture above.

The thresholding prevents the user from seeing the
errors when the drive is new. This prevents "cherry picking"
by returning drives at retail, until a "low number" drive
is spotted and kept. By having the field be zero when
the drive is new, nobody suspects a thing...

The behavior of my Seagate drives is pretty strange. I
got a growing defect situation over a period of
a couple days, and I thought for sure "this drive is
going to die". I've been using that drive, and a couple
others that show 200-300 in the display, and those
drives are *still* working today as scratch drives
for experiments. They just won't die. So on the one hand,
if the value in that field grows rapidly, I replace
with a fresh drive. But if the drive has a change of
heart, it might actually last a long long time. The
counts never drop, but they can stop increasing too.

HTH,
Paul
  #5  
Old September 26th 17, 03:45 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
John B. Smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 163
Default Hard Disk Slow Down After Image Recovery

On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 18:44:45 -0400, Paul
wrote:

John B. Smith wrote:
Today my XP went off the tracks. I think it booted normally but when I
used Agent and Eudora to get hearders and check mail at the same time,
something got messed up bigtime. Agent seemed to freeze, but did work
after a while. Tried a reboot, things got stalled when my bat was
saving email. I finally pushed the Start Button to turn off. On reboot
things were REALLY messed up and Avast anti-virus refused to work. My
last Macrium backup was August 28, but it would have to do. And it
did, though I worked thru it painfully slow as I haden't done it in a
long time. Imaged the backup back on in 20 minutes. Took a long bootup
but everything looked normal. Messed a while with my saved email
rescuing stuff. I do have a bat but I don't trust it. Core Temp
reported 6% usage on both cores all the time???. Anyway, I thought I
better do a fresh Macrium backup. Got it started and saw the estimated
end time was 5 hours! HD Tune then said my 500G drive was running xfer
speedof 3 megabytes/sec! The 1 gig drive was its usual 170MB/sec.
Rebooted and all was ok.

Finally my question is why was the 500g boot drive running so slow on
its first boot after the recovery? Is that typical?


Is your 500GB drive on IDE (ribbon cable) ?


No, it's SATA.


The IDE drives went up to 750GB. That's the largest
disk they made for IDE. My collection of disks, my
largest IDE drive is 250GB.

I picked IDE because it has the same sort of domain
validation as SCSI drives use. A SCSI drive can "gear down"
if errors are detected. This is intended to improve data
transfer error rate, at the expense of transfer speed.
It's a "safety feature" for unattended operation in a server room.
The driver does the magic, and not the disk itself.

Microsoft decided it would be fun to do that for IDE too.

The IDE one gears down, again and again, until it is in a slow PIO mode.

I've not heard of any attempt to do that for SATA.

*******

The "Workaround" section, half way down this page, recommended
uninstalling the boot drive in Device Manager.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-ca/...-out-or-crc-er

devmgmt.msc

Expand the IDE ATA/ATAPI Controllers node.

Double-click the controller for which you want
to restore the typical DMA transfer mode.

Click the Driver tab.
Click Uninstall.

When the process completes, restart your computer. When
Windows restarts, the hard disk controller is re-enumerated and
the transfer mode is reset to the default value for each device
that is connected to the controller.

*******

I'm guess this suggestion doesn't apply to SATA?
Sounds kinda scary as I'm booting both XP and Win7 with Microsoft's
little boot menu - the BCD thing. I'm pretty sure uninstalling the
boot drive would mess that up. Seems like most anything does.

I can't imagine how Agent and Eudora got into one anothers road.
Maybe in fact, with both running, Avast had to scan the files
both of those were opening and Avast was a little busy too ?

*******

You should check the SMART statistics for the drive,
and see if the Reallocation thing has gone non-zero.
In this example, Reallocated has 9 errors. The tool used
here, is free for download.


This seems to look the same in both the 500G and the 1000G drives.

http://atm.cyberec.com/~hello/pictures/Clipboard01.jpg

http://www.hdtune.com/files/hdtune_255.exe

If you do the math, and use the predicted percentage,
that field goes up to around 5000 errors or so. And
we have no way of knowing, how that relates to real allocations.
That statistic is "thresholded". When the disk is new, the
manufacturer doesn't want you to know how many errors are
present from the factory. There are actually *always*
allocation errors from the factory. The hard drive has
an acceptance criterion, and the number of errors might
be 100000 for acceptance. When you see 5000 in that SMART
display, the total number of reallocated sectors might be
105,000. But because this is not documented, you're on
your own in terms of interpretation. The people who
invented the SMART interface, don't go into the details
of running a disk business, and they aren't about to
explain "thresholding" to the public :-)

My theory:

0 ..100000 Show 0 in SMART Display
100001..105000 Show 1..5000 in SMART Display
Like "9" in the example picture above.

The thresholding prevents the user from seeing the
errors when the drive is new. This prevents "cherry picking"
by returning drives at retail, until a "low number" drive
is spotted and kept. By having the field be zero when
the drive is new, nobody suspects a thing...

The behavior of my Seagate drives is pretty strange. I
got a growing defect situation over a period of
a couple days, and I thought for sure "this drive is
going to die". I've been using that drive, and a couple
others that show 200-300 in the display, and those
drives are *still* working today as scratch drives
for experiments. They just won't die. So on the one hand,
if the value in that field grows rapidly, I replace
with a fresh drive. But if the drive has a change of
heart, it might actually last a long long time. The
counts never drop, but they can stop increasing too.

HTH,
Paul



Thanks for the theories guys. I have a little more info. Hard Disk
Sentinel says the 500G drive has
"Problems occurred between the communication of the disk and the host
57338 times."
HD Tune says these are Ultra DMA CRC Error counts.
The 1000G drive is clean of these.
I am suspicious of that SATA cable to the motherboard. I lost my
little workroom and tinkering with my computer mechanically is very
awkward now, so swaping cables is not my favorite thing to do. The
cable looks foolproof, mostly suspicious of the mb connection. I do
have a warning when this is occurring as CoreTemp tells me the 2 cores
are running 5-8% dealing with those errors
while they are happening..
At the moment the thing is running smoothly again.
  #6  
Old September 26th 17, 04:13 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Paul[_28_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,467
Default Hard Disk Slow Down After Image Recovery

John B. Smith wrote:


Thanks for the theories guys. I have a little more info. Hard Disk
Sentinel says the 500G drive has
"Problems occurred between the communication of the disk and the host
57338 times."
HD Tune says these are Ultra DMA CRC Error counts.
The 1000G drive is clean of these.
I am suspicious of that SATA cable to the motherboard. I lost my
little workroom and tinkering with my computer mechanically is very
awkward now, so swaping cables is not my favorite thing to do. The
cable looks foolproof, mostly suspicious of the mb connection. I do
have a warning when this is occurring as CoreTemp tells me the 2 cores
are running 5-8% dealing with those errors
while they are happening..
At the moment the thing is running smoothly again.


If the SATA cable is bent, until it kinks the plastic,
that causes an impedance discontinuity. And that can cause
some slight reflections on the cable. The receiver has the
right resistor value to terminate the diff signaling properly,
but kinking the cable doesn't help.

You can try a nice fresh cable, and see how that works out.

The error counter for cabling problems, doesn't
reset itself. The idea is, you write down 57338 in your
notebook. Check back in a years time. If the number
is still 57338, then the new cable really works :-)

And SATA ports do blow out, because I have a failed one
on this motherboard, where the disk no longer shows up.
Now I'm down to five SATA cables.

Paul
  #7  
Old September 26th 17, 06:30 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Flasherly[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,407
Default Hard Disk Slow Down After Image Recovery

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 10:45:14 -0400, John B. Smith
wrote:

I am suspicious of that SATA cable to the motherboard. I lost my
little workroom and tinkering with my computer mechanically is very
awkward now, so swaping cables is not my favorite thing to do


It gets worse over time. ...first comes leaving them to lie, on their
sides for stability and a wider platform and ease, just to work off;-
then invariable comes an actual side-panel -- why should I bother to
put that back;- I'm only going to be doing something else inside it,
later tomorrow, maybe a day, or two, even a week after.

Why, yes, I decidedly remarked to myself, 'why not,' as I got out my
heaviest-duty metal shears to cut off half a side off of rolled-steel
from the HDD cage, inside one of my cases. (God forbid it wasn't my
premier all-aluminum Antec ... well, at least it hasn't happened yet.)
It's all perfectly justified, you see: I have a garage with no cars
parked inside. Only tools on an entire side-length, beside an empty
car's width, with plenty enough room to work. It's where, on one
wall, I keep a 4ft.x4ft. table with fold-in metal legs. Which I bring
through an adjacent door sometimes to set both computers up, 5x5,
side-by-side. Oh, yeah. It's get-down time.
  #8  
Old September 26th 17, 10:30 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
John B. Smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 163
Default Hard Disk Slow Down After Image Recovery

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 13:30:53 -0400, Flasherly
wrote:

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 10:45:14 -0400, John B. Smith
wrote:

I am suspicious of that SATA cable to the motherboard. I lost my
little workroom and tinkering with my computer mechanically is very
awkward now, so swaping cables is not my favorite thing to do


It gets worse over time. ...first comes leaving them to lie, on their
sides for stability and a wider platform and ease, just to work off;-
then invariable comes an actual side-panel -- why should I bother to
put that back;- I'm only going to be doing something else inside it,
later tomorrow, maybe a day, or two, even a week after.

Yup, that side panel has been off for a LONG time. Years I think. Does
run cooler that way though. Maybe it could have warded off that glass
of tomato juice that spilled in there. went mostly in under the
important stuff (I hope)
My garage is apartment-shared no heat and no security. My living room
table is my only hope for computer work and that's full of junk.

Sounds like I should hunt up a new Sata cable, I think I used all that
came with the case.I wasn't aware they were sensitive to being bent.
Very helpful to know.


Why, yes, I decidedly remarked to myself, 'why not,' as I got out my
heaviest-duty metal shears to cut off half a side off of rolled-steel
from the HDD cage, inside one of my cases. (God forbid it wasn't my
premier all-aluminum Antec ... well, at least it hasn't happened yet.)
It's all perfectly justified, you see: I have a garage with no cars
parked inside. Only tools on an entire side-length, beside an empty
car's width, with plenty enough room to work. It's where, on one
wall, I keep a 4ft.x4ft. table with fold-in metal legs. Which I bring
through an adjacent door sometimes to set both computers up, 5x5,
side-by-side. Oh, yeah. It's get-down time.

  #9  
Old September 27th 17, 01:36 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Flasherly[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,407
Default Hard Disk Slow Down After Image Recovery

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 17:30:24 -0400, John B. Smith
wrote:

My garage is apartment-shared no heat and no security.


Been there. That's what computers did for me: Get me out of paying
for other's money. I didn't start getting ahead until with a
computer, a means and way to track and save money. By a time I'd
actually got there, to pay by in large cash for a house, (a lesser of
significance in an amount I financed, which I hit at extra hard to pay
off quickly, in a matter of a couple years), at which point, I was
more interested in being that other: Someone, in the stock market, who
others could -pay me- Their Money.

That's all it takes in theory, anyway. A willingness to lose the
shirt off your back, and a fair share of arrogance to go up against
others with the hard cash in hand to back it up. I'm lucky. For
some, things can get pretty bad, so I'd have to say it wasn't too
painful to learn what I did.
 




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