Powerline Ethernet, inconsistent performance

In article , Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 30/09/2012 3:30 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
NOTE: I omitted the comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips newsgroup originally
in the OP's post from my reply. By name, it doesn't seem a related
newsgroup (and I don't visit that newsgroup to know that it is related).


"Yousuf Khan" wrote:

I've had a powerline ethernet setup for several years at my home. I
usually find their performance more consistent than Wi-Fi, especially
when streaming video. But right now I'm not experiencing usual conditions.

I'm currently using 3 adapters distributed throughout my home. Current
iteration uses all adapters based on the Powerline HD 200Mbps standard.
Usually I'd be getting over 100Mbps on all adapters, occasionally
dropping down to 50Mbps in the worst cases. Nowadays I'm seeing it drop
down to 5Mbps even.

I haven't added too many new electrical appliances my home, as far as I
can tell, but the quality of the electrical lines seems to have gotten
noisier for no apparent reason. What can be done to improve the
situation? The house is 30 years old.


http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/lanwa...omeplug-five-w
ays-to-boost-powerline-network-speed
Section 3
/(You might be able to read this article. I block Facebook crap so
their frame blocks out content in the article.)/

http://www.connectedhome.infopint.co...line-ethernet/
See text following "In order to achieve excellent, stable home
networking performance".


http://support.plasternetworks.com/w...-powerline-iso
lator
"Effects of Noise and Attenuation on the Powerline"

Thanks, but a lot of the articles are about problems with HomePlug
standard, and my adapters all conform to the Powerline HD standard. In
fact, a couple of the articles even talk about replacing the HomePlug
with Powerline adapters as the solution! By that measure, I'm already
running the solution to my problems.

Powerline sends an RF signal over your power lines. Anything else that
injects RF into those same lines can affect your Powerline network.
Maybe your refridgerator compressor kicked in when you noticed the
network degradation. Maybe you got a new electronic gadget and left its
wall wart plugged in all the time. Maybe you added another computer
(see below on PSU capacitors). That doesn't mean just RF sources you
add but from around your residence, too.

Well, things such as the refrigerator have been around for many years.
I'll check the various rechargers (wall warts) to see if they are
plugged in directly (as opposed to through surge protectors).

This problem is not an intermittent fluctuating one, it's now a constant
reduction in speed.


Yousuf Khan



One thing that might cause slowdown is if a HAM radio operator is in the
neighborhood. But if it comes down to it the Amateur radio operator will win
if it comes down to it cause he is liscenced to use the frequencies.

In article ,
GMAN wrote:


[...]

One thing that might cause slowdown is if a HAM radio operator is in the
neighborhood. But if it comes down to it the Amateur radio operator will win
if it comes down to it cause he is liscenced to use the frequencies.

However the majority of hams will help locate and eliminate the
inteference if asked politely. After all, they are probably being hit
by it also.

In the majority of cases, they are not causing the interference.

--
Rich Greenberg Sarasota, FL, USA richgr atsign panix.com + 1 941 378 2097
Eastern time. N6LRT I speak for myself & my dogs only. VM'er since CP-67
Canines: Val,Red,Shasta,Zero,Casey & Cinnar (At the bridge) Owner:Chinook-L
Canines: Red & Max (Siberians) Retired at the beach Asst Owner:Sibernet-L

"GMAN" wrote:

One thing that might cause slowdown is if a HAM radio operator is in the
neighborhood. But if it comes down to it the Amateur radio operator will win
if it comes down to it cause he is liscenced to use the frequencies.

Ham operators can operate from 1 to 1000 watts for transmission power.
CB'ers are supposed to get limited to 5W but I've heard of them punching
out higher. Being next to a group of towers for radio stations isn't so
great, either. Being next to high-power lines with corono discharge
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corona_discharge) can also induce a hum
(usually at twice your line frequency) in your your power lines.

In the case of ham or CB operators, you'd notice the interference when
they transmit (on), not when they receive (off). Leaving their gear
powered on just means they are receiving, not transmitting. With ham
and CB users, you'd notice the RFI when they transmit, like noise
occasionally showing up on TV when watching broadcast channels. The OP
says it is constant now (well, when he happens to measure but it's
unlikely every time he measures happens to be when a ham/CB user also
happens to be transmitting).

Radio stations are often up 24 hours a day, or they go off-air late at
night or wee morn which is probably also when Yousuf is sleeping and
won't be testing Powerline bandwidth.

Then there's hum because grounding of multiple electric/electronic
devices are at different points in that circuit path. I'm not an
electrician but I would think proper running of the ground line to each
room would go back to the service entry point; however, that means a
device grounded in one room has a length of ground wire from that room
to the service point and then from the service point to some other room
where there is another grounded device. That length of wire has
resistance which incurs an impedance at high frequency. That means
there is a potential difference between those 2 ground devices over that
length of wire. RF transmission with impedance means voltaic difference
over that long grounding path. That's why just 10 feet of wire between
electrical outlets in the same room on the same circuit can induce 400V
difference due to a sharp surge (e.g., lightning strike) and why you
don't interconnect devices hooked up to different surge protectors
connected to different outlets, like hooking up the audio out of your
computer on a surge protector to the audio in of your stereo gear ran to
a different wall outlet. For interconnected electronic devices, you run
them off [the same surge protector to] the same wall outlet. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_hum and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_loop_(electricity). The first
article mentions hum produced due to high current. Maybe Yousuf is
measuring Powerline bandwidth when he happens to be cooking something on
his electric stove.

Note that Powerline transceivers themselves produce noise. To
electronic gear, the RF "noise" riding on the surface of the power wires
represents noise. I've read where Powerline users will notice a
crackling or hum noise in their subwoofers (probably due to poor noise
filtering in the sub's amp but then it's filter might be getting rid of
typical line hum up at 50, 60, 100, or 120 Hz and not trying to filter
out "noise" up at 20-250 kHz). I've had to use line conditioners
(filters) to eliminate noise in electronic gear, so if Yousuf is using
any line conditioners or noise filters then that would affect Powerline
performance. Even if he use a line conditioner on one wall outlet and
had the Powerline on a nearby wall outlet, the noise filtering could be
quelching the noise on the line and not just on its output. Since the
point of a line conditioner or noise filter is to eliminate noise on the
line above the A/C frequency (50-60 Hz), any quelching on the input
side, too, is considered a good thing although a side effect. If you
look at some simple design for a low-end noise filter, like at
http://www.teslacoildesign.com/image..._schematic.gif,
wouldn't the capacitor across the input short out the RF band. That's
on the input side of the noise filter so it's shorting out RF on the
power line. Someone who's an electrical engineer might know better if a
noise filter placed on a wall outlet would result not only in reduced RF
on the output of the noise filter but also in reduced RF on its input
side (i.e., on the power line at the wall outlet). Maybe that's why
leaving a wall wart plugged in causes problems for Powerline
transceivers. While the transformer is a coil that would choke out the
RF noise (Powerline transmission), don't some of these have a cap and
sometimes a resistor in parallel and on the input side of the
transformer? Without that shorting of input RF, wouldn't the
transformer incur more heat due to the impedance of the choke
(transformer) to the RF signal? Maybe they presume RF noise will be low
in power and the transformer can easily handle the added heat
dissipation. I don't know how much power the Powerline (aka Homeplug)
transceivers put on the power lines. From the long-haul description at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_line_communication, RF transmission
power could go up to several hundred watts.

On Mon, 1 Oct 2012 19:08:36 -0700 (PDT), Flasherly
wrote:

Seriously, when I last looked for a breaker I called a place quite a
distance away, a big bunker spread over acres and acres of land in an
industrial area. A private home salvage operation pulling materials
from homes that had been through fire & catastrophe and other acts of
nature. I found a 60-amp 220V to replace the dryer's 30-amp service
for $10, maybe 15 bucks. I like plugging a couple welders into it,
and wasn't in the mood to play the local hardware stores $1000 for a
ef'n fuse or rewire in a separate service.

You must like hot wires!

On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 15:42:37 -0700, Loren Pechtel wrote:

On Mon, 1 Oct 2012 19:08:36 -0700 (PDT), Flasherly
wrote:

Seriously, when I last looked for a breaker I called a place quite a
distance away, a big bunker spread over acres and acres of land in an
industrial area. A private home salvage operation pulling materials
from homes that had been through fire & catastrophe and other acts of
nature. I found a 60-amp 220V to replace the dryer's 30-amp service for
$10, maybe 15 bucks. I like plugging a couple welders into it, and
wasn't in the mood to play the local hardware stores $1000 for a ef'n
fuse or rewire in a separate service.

You must like hot wires!

Or smoking wall framing.

In article , (Rich Greenberg) wrote:
In article ,
GMAN wrote:


[...]

One thing that might cause slowdown is if a HAM radio operator is in the
neighborhood. But if it comes down to it the Amateur radio operator will win
if it comes down to it cause he is liscenced to use the frequencies.

However the majority of hams will help locate and eliminate the
inteference if asked politely. After all, they are probably being hit
by it also.

In the majority of cases, they are not causing the interference.

The main point i was trying to get at is that the consumer who uses a class B
device agrees to and has to accept the fact that their device is succeptible
to and can cause intereference to others.

On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 10:30:57 +0000 (UTC), David wrote:

On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 15:42:37 -0700, Loren Pechtel wrote:

On Mon, 1 Oct 2012 19:08:36 -0700 (PDT), Flasherly
wrote:

Seriously, when I last looked for a breaker I called a place quite a
distance away, a big bunker spread over acres and acres of land in an
industrial area. A private home salvage operation pulling materials
from homes that had been through fire & catastrophe and other acts of
nature. I found a 60-amp 220V to replace the dryer's 30-amp service for
$10, maybe 15 bucks. I like plugging a couple welders into it, and
wasn't in the mood to play the local hardware stores $1000 for a ef'n
fuse or rewire in a separate service.

You must like hot wires!

Or smoking wall framing.

I doubt that's going to be hot enough to smoke. What it might do to
the framing over the years, though...

On Oct 2, 6:42 pm, Loren Pechtel wrote:

You must like hot wires!

Gaseous, too, acetylene and oxygen tanks. Nasty, nasty stuff in the
heat -- leathers and a face mask, banging and chipping on something
before incessantly grinding away in a spray of slag -- almost as much
in itself a process to formed metallurgical substances, by testing
subsequently in stages a shape for strength. Neighbors take one look
at the gear, however, hurry the children inside and act as if I'm all
about decapitating cats. I've no inkling whatsoever why, and it's
utterly pretentious poppy-cock on their part to act that way;- the
only difference between common woodworking garage tools, is they don't
exuberantly throw finished table craft down the driveway, into the
street, to see if it breaks upon impact.

On Oct 3, 6:15 pm, Loren Pechtel wrote:

Or smoking wall framing.

I doubt that's going to be hot enough to smoke. What it might do to
the framing over the years, though...

Conduit. Besides a short run outside at the breaker box, twice up and
down, inside galvanized pipe across 10' linearly from the dryer.
Easily enough physically to grasp for heat, although do have to be
careful of appliance people if there's a great sale w/ free delivery/
setup -- a fit between adjacent 220V compressor, washer, freezer, or W/
H. Neat unless I catch them doing the ol' double-take.

On 01/10/2012 10:19 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
If you're unwilling to route CAT5 cables through your home, you sure you
don't want to go to wifi?

If I was willing to route CAT5 through my house, then I wouldn't have
purchased these powerline adapters, would I?

As for Wi-Fi, there is already Wi-Fi in the house. One of the purposes
of the powerline adapters is to bridge a couple of Wi-Fi routers
together, with one router acting as traditional router, while the other
one is just being used as a repeater. The first router provides Wi-Fi
services to one end of the house, while the other one provides it for
the other end.

Yousuf Khan