It is all over for teh US, Osama has won? The pitfalls of the US SS (Homeland security)

John Larkin wrote:

[snip]
Time was, Europe was the center of science and industry. Then America
got in on the act. Now China, India, Brazil, and other places are
learning to use technology, create wealth, and move up from
impoverished agrarian societies.

learning ..., we sillies gave it to them in the hope of quick cheap gains.

Africa and the Middle East are next.

be patient.

If that means that America is "loosing its edge", so what? Most people
here have everything they could reasonably need, and more.

America benefits, morally and materially, from a healthy, democratic,
competitive world. Some people, including Cheney I suspect, understand
this.

Rene

On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:10:14 GMT) it happened maxfoo
wrote in
:

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:23:30 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Apr 2004 10:40:53 -0500) it happened chrisv
wrote in :

What are you babbling about?
Read the link, you have to register to nytimes, but it is free.

I wouldn't read that trash if they paid me to register.
Well, from a technical point of view, the reporting is not at all that bad,
rather good I would say.

On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:10:31 GMT) it happened "Tom Del Rosso"
wrote in
:

"Jan Panteltje" wrote in
message ...
http://www.commondreams.org/
picture top left, why this is forbidden to show?

Duh, probably for the same reason it was forbidden to show the bodies
left over from Operation Market Garden. The American people might have
lost interest in liberating your country.

Some Americans used to think Europeans were ungrateful. Now some of us
think you're unworthy.
You are still stuck in that American superiority complex.
I judge you by what you do NOW.
Killing civilians all over the world,
Why not sit on one of your nukes and detonate?
For sure you Americans are so strong you are immune.

You would not even have had car tires without stealing the German patent on
vulcanizing rubber.

On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Apr 2004 10:33:55 -0700) it happened John Larkin
wrote in
:

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:17:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Apr 2004 08:36:43 -0700) it happened John Larkin
wrote in
:

America benefits, morally and materially, from a healthy, democratic,
competitive world. Some people, including Cheney I suspect, understand
this.

John

Well said, John.
Indeed US could benefit from some morale, and democracy would help them too.

Good grief, I've lived here for some years and the US is more liberal,
more accepting, and more democratic than it has ever been. While
France wallows in anti-muslim and anti-Jewish racism, I live in a city
that has no racial majority, is 20% gay, whose high schools and
colleges are majority asian, has three Spanish-language and two asian
television stations (plus one more I can't figure out, Croatian or
something) and everybody around here gets along great. Given all the
immigration and change the US is going through, we're not doing bad at
all. Morale is fine.

John
Good to hear that, San Fransisco?

"Jan Panteltje" wrote in
message ...

You are still stuck in that American superiority complex.
I judge you by what you do NOW.

No, you asked why we made a certain thing illegal, as if we never had
done the same thing before, and I pointed out that we had.


Killing civilians all over the world,

We did that also -- and a lot more of it -- while we were driving the
Wermacht out of your kitchen. Selective indignation.


You would not even have had car tires without stealing the German
patent on
vulcanizing rubber.

Are you trying to make me laugh? (You did make me smile.) Did
everybody else in the world pay a royalty? When was this, the 1890s?
(...Looking it up...) I see that the process was improved in Germany in
1932. Is that the patent you mean? There was another just before WWI.
Why are you defending pre-war German industrialization of all things?

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:13:11 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Apr 2004 10:33:55 -0700) it happened John Larkin
wrote in
:

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:17:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Apr 2004 08:36:43 -0700) it happened John Larkin
m wrote in
:

America benefits, morally and materially, from a healthy, democratic,
competitive world. Some people, including Cheney I suspect, understand
this.

John

Well said, John.
Indeed US could benefit from some morale, and democracy would help them too.

Good grief, I've lived here for some years and the US is more liberal,
more accepting, and more democratic than it has ever been. While
France wallows in anti-muslim and anti-Jewish racism, I live in a city
that has no racial majority, is 20% gay, whose high schools and
colleges are majority asian, has three Spanish-language and two asian
television stations (plus one more I can't figure out, Croatian or
something) and everybody around here gets along great. Given all the
immigration and change the US is going through, we're not doing bad at
all. Morale is fine.

John
Good to hear that, San Fransisco?

Right. I admit that parts of the USA, "flyover territory" as the
coasties call it, are still lily-white, but most of the big cities are
very racially/socially/sexually mixed, and all sorts of people are
making it in business, professions, arts and producing all sorts of
interesting babies. It's an amazing change from when I was a kid and
we had separate drinking fountains for blacks and whites. I recently
read that North Africans make up a sizable percentage of the French
population, but none of the top 500 or something of company CEOs are
from that group. Silicon Valley ain't like that!

Really, the USA, especially the coasts, are astonishing social
laboratories that have to be seen to be believed. For this many
different people to get along as well as they do is amazing, maybe
unprecedented.

Some European countries have birth rates as low as 1.2 per couple, far
below maintenance rates. As the European population ages, retires
younger, and lives longer, there won't be enough working youngsters to
sustain the retirees, so you'll have to breed like crazy (but it's too
late already) or import a lot of people with funny skin colors. It
will be interesting to see how this shapes up.

John

"chrisv" wrote in message
...
"Tom Del Rosso" wrote:

The necessity of overthrowing
the Baathists was recognised by President Clinton, who wasn't known
for
ties to the oil industry.

I just hope that we have not effectively replaced them with a radical
Muslim government.

The Iraqis aren't so inclined. The Iranian goverment is trying to
establish one, but if we can help Iraq hold on until they have a
government of their own, then they can prevent that from ever happening.


--
-Reply in group, but if emailing add 2 more zeros-
-and remove the obvious-

"John Larkin" wrote in
message ...

Really, the USA, especially the coasts, are astonishing social
laboratories that have to be seen to be believed. For this many
different people to get along as well as they do is amazing, maybe
unprecedented.

And people who would be at each other's throats back home get along fine
living next to each other here. Pakistanis and Indians, Peruvians and
Chileans, etc. They sometimes speak ill of each other, but only in
private. There is no public encitement to hostility.


--
-Reply in group, but if emailing add 2 more zeros-
-and remove the obvious-

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:05:44 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/22/opinion/22FRIE.html


Arrgg!! NEVER post a direct link to New York Times, too much of a pain
in the ass to get too.. instead get the Google News link... Here it is
for this article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/22/op...partner=GOOGLE



That'll take you right there without needing to make up some fake info
to clog up NYT's systems.

And now back to our off-topic flame war du jour...

So, had some time while the processor usage is over 100%
and I just have to wait (oops finished now) for the processing.
So I started reading CNN, and was happy to see that at least
SOME people see what I noticed earlier, see above link.

'Brain drain?' no I would call it brain lock!

Now it will all get worse, the US deficit, if nobody
wants to buy US anymore then it is all over.

I'll preface this by saying that I'm a Canadian, and about 10-15 years
ago Canada was going through a lot of the same problems that are
mentioned in this article. All of our top science and engineering
students were going to the States, few businesses were doing any R&D
here in Canada and economically we were running up HUGE deficits.
These sorts of things are not good and they are not something that
will just go away because we want them too.

This caused quite a few problems to the country, to the extent of some
people calling Canada an "Honorary third-world country". The US has
really got to get it's fiscal policy in check or they will end up
having some rather major problems. As a Canadian I don't want this at
all since, whether we like it or not, our economy is strongly tied to
the US economy.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla underscore 20 at yahoo dot ca

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:50:29 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:
Some European countries have birth rates as low as 1.2 per couple, far
below maintenance rates. As the European population ages, retires
younger, and lives longer, there won't be enough working youngsters to
sustain the retirees, so you'll have to breed like crazy (but it's too
late already) or import a lot of people with funny skin colors. It
will be interesting to see how this shapes up.

You make it sound as if this is a new thing, something European
countries have not been experiencing for some years. In the grand
scheme of things though, most of western Europe actually has higher
immigration rates (as a percentage of the population) than the United
States does, and they have for some time.

I can assure you that Europe is certainly not "lily-white", and most
of the larger cities have a very ethnically diverse population. At a
guess I would say that London is possibly the most ethnically diverse
city in the world.. Name any culture and you can probably find a few
hundred thousand people from that culture living in London.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla underscore 20 at yahoo dot ca