SATA JBODs for backup-to-disk

We know there are a lot of vendors offering SATA JBODs with either FC or
Ultra320 interfaces. They all pretty much offer hot-swap drives, but I
haven't seen any that package the individual drives in such a way that
they're designed to be portable/modular. You remove a bare drive in some
type of convenience tray, but not something protective that would facilitate
vault storage.

Has anyone seen any SATA JBODs where the drives are packaged in removable
cartridges that might be suitable for storage outside the JBOD?

Thanks!

David Boyer wrote:
We know there are a lot of vendors offering SATA JBODs with either FC or
Ultra320 interfaces. They all pretty much offer hot-swap drives, but I
haven't seen any that package the individual drives in such a way that
they're designed to be portable/modular. You remove a bare drive in some
type of convenience tray, but not something protective that would facilitate
vault storage.

Has anyone seen any SATA JBODs where the drives are packaged in removable
cartridges that might be suitable for storage outside the JBOD?



ProStor Systems in Colorado are doing something along those lines (see
www.prostorsytems.com) I think the reason you don't tend to see it as a
common feature is that for most backup-to-disk applications it would be
of dubious utility since each backup set spans multiple disks in order
to achieve the required throughput, so can't just pull a disk and take
them somewhere else to read the data, you'd have to pull the entire
stripe. In addition, most people who want long term archive storage are
still going with tape even if they use D2D for their frontline backup
application.

--
Nik Simpson

Previously David Boyer wrote:
We know there are a lot of vendors offering SATA JBODs with either FC or
Ultra320 interfaces. They all pretty much offer hot-swap drives, but I
haven't seen any that package the individual drives in such a way that
they're designed to be portable/modular. You remove a bare drive in some
type of convenience tray, but not something protective that would facilitate
vault storage.

Has anyone seen any SATA JBODs where the drives are packaged in removable
cartridges that might be suitable for storage outside the JBOD?

First, JBOD is about the least suitable option for backup. Loose one disk
and loose everything.

Second, why not use eSATA disks directly?

Arno

"Arno Wagner" wrote in message
...
Previously David Boyer wrote:
We know there are a lot of vendors offering SATA JBODs with either FC or
Ultra320 interfaces. They all pretty much offer hot-swap drives, but I
haven't seen any that package the individual drives in such a way that
they're designed to be portable/modular. You remove a bare drive in some
type of convenience tray, but not something protective that would
facilitate
vault storage.

Has anyone seen any SATA JBODs where the drives are packaged in removable
cartridges that might be suitable for storage outside the JBOD?

First, JBOD is about the least suitable option for backup. Loose one disk
and loose everything.


If you lose one disk, you shouldn't lose everything IF the JBOD is
configured properly. You can usually use mirroring, RAID 5, RAID 6, and RAID
10, and any other methods you would use to survive one or more disk
failures. Depending on the JBOD vendor, the array config is stored on each
of the physical disks, so you can remove a disk or diskset and pop it in a
year later and have it back online just by installing the drives. We've been
doing backups to a 6TB SATA JBOD for nearly two years, and it works great.
The problem with our JBOD is that drives are hot-swappable, but aren't
otherwise designed to be modular.

Second, why not use eSATA disks directly?


eSATA disks are also an option we're looking at.

Arno

Previously David Boyer wrote:
"Arno Wagner" wrote in message
...
Previously David Boyer wrote:
We know there are a lot of vendors offering SATA JBODs with either FC or
Ultra320 interfaces. They all pretty much offer hot-swap drives, but I
haven't seen any that package the individual drives in such a way that
they're designed to be portable/modular. You remove a bare drive in some
type of convenience tray, but not something protective that would
facilitate
vault storage.

Has anyone seen any SATA JBODs where the drives are packaged in removable
cartridges that might be suitable for storage outside the JBOD?

First, JBOD is about the least suitable option for backup. Loose one disk
and loose everything.


If you lose one disk, you shouldn't lose everything IF the JBOD is
configured properly. You can usually use mirroring, RAID 5, RAID 6, and RAID
10, and any other methods you would use to survive one or more disk
failures.

JBOD is a RAID mode. It just places the individual disks sectors one
after another and supports differently sized disks. JBOD is not
RAID 1/5/10 or any other redundant RAID level. JBOD is sometimes
called APPEND mode (e.g. by the Linux LVM).

Depending on the JBOD vendor, the array config is stored on each
of the physical disks, so you can remove a disk or diskset and pop it in a
year later and have it back online just by installing the drives. We've been
doing backups to a 6TB SATA JBOD for nearly two years, and it works great.
The problem with our JBOD is that drives are hot-swappable, but aren't
otherwise designed to be modular.

Maybe you mean something else than the Just a Bunch Of Disks RAID
mode here?

Arno

Arno Wagner wrote:
Previously David Boyer wrote:
If you lose one disk, you shouldn't lose everything IF the JBOD is
configured properly. You can usually use mirroring, RAID 5, RAID 6, and RAID
10, and any other methods you would use to survive one or more disk
failures.

JBOD is a RAID mode. It just places the individual disks sectors one
after another and supports differently sized disks. JBOD is not
RAID 1/5/10 or any other redundant RAID level. JBOD is sometimes
called APPEND mode (e.g. by the Linux LVM).

Depending on the JBOD vendor, the array config is stored on each
of the physical disks, so you can remove a disk or diskset and pop it in a
year later and have it back online just by installing the drives. We've been
doing backups to a 6TB SATA JBOD for nearly two years, and it works great.
The problem with our JBOD is that drives are hot-swappable, but aren't
otherwise designed to be modular.

Maybe you mean something else than the Just a Bunch Of Disks RAID
mode here?


To me, JBOD means "Just a Bunch Of Disks". That's a system where each of
the individual disks is visible to the operating system in their raw
individual disk form, rather than visible to the OS as a virtual volume
pre-virtualized by a hardware RAID disk array. JBODs can then be
volumized by software RAID into concats, stripes, mirrors, RAID 5, and
other RAID modes.

Yousuf Khan

Previously Yousuf Khan wrote:
Arno Wagner wrote:
Previously David Boyer wrote:
If you lose one disk, you shouldn't lose everything IF the JBOD is
configured properly. You can usually use mirroring, RAID 5, RAID 6, and RAID
10, and any other methods you would use to survive one or more disk
failures.

JBOD is a RAID mode. It just places the individual disks sectors one
after another and supports differently sized disks. JBOD is not
RAID 1/5/10 or any other redundant RAID level. JBOD is sometimes
called APPEND mode (e.g. by the Linux LVM).

Depending on the JBOD vendor, the array config is stored on each
of the physical disks, so you can remove a disk or diskset and pop it in a
year later and have it back online just by installing the drives. We've been
doing backups to a 6TB SATA JBOD for nearly two years, and it works great.
The problem with our JBOD is that drives are hot-swappable, but aren't
otherwise designed to be modular.

Maybe you mean something else than the Just a Bunch Of Disks RAID
mode here?


To me, JBOD means "Just a Bunch Of Disks". That's a system where each of
the individual disks is visible to the operating system in their raw
individual disk form, rather than visible to the OS as a virtual volume
pre-virtualized by a hardware RAID disk array. JBODs can then be
volumized by software RAID into concats, stripes, mirrors, RAID 5, and
other RAID modes.

Well, then you should adjust your language to the standards that cover
this, unless you want to be misunderstood. JBOD does mean "Just a
Bunch Of Disks", but "Just a Bunch Of Disks" is a RAID mode
also known as SPAN, concat or append mode.

A reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_RAID_levels

Arno

See Nik's reply above? That's what a useful response looks like. He actually
answered the question.

You can cite Wikipedia all day as though it's implicitly authoritative, but
the reality is that numerous vendors are selling JBODs that don't match the
"standard" definition. Maybe they need to consult with wikipedia or Arno
before those items go to market. JBOD seems to be a broad term applied to
multi-disk SAN-type enclosures that aren't being connected to a fabric.

Maybe I should have said "multi drive SATA enclosure" instead of JBOD. Now,
can you answer the question, or is nit-picking pretty much the limit of what
you can contribute?

"Arno Wagner" wrote in message
...
Previously Yousuf Khan wrote:
Arno Wagner wrote:
Previously David Boyer wrote:
If you lose one disk, you shouldn't lose everything IF the JBOD is
configured properly. You can usually use mirroring, RAID 5, RAID 6, and
RAID
10, and any other methods you would use to survive one or more disk
failures.

JBOD is a RAID mode. It just places the individual disks sectors one
after another and supports differently sized disks. JBOD is not
RAID 1/5/10 or any other redundant RAID level. JBOD is sometimes
called APPEND mode (e.g. by the Linux LVM).

Depending on the JBOD vendor, the array config is stored on each
of the physical disks, so you can remove a disk or diskset and pop it
in a
year later and have it back online just by installing the drives. We've
been
doing backups to a 6TB SATA JBOD for nearly two years, and it works
great.
The problem with our JBOD is that drives are hot-swappable, but aren't
otherwise designed to be modular.

Maybe you mean something else than the Just a Bunch Of Disks RAID
mode here?


To me, JBOD means "Just a Bunch Of Disks". That's a system where each of
the individual disks is visible to the operating system in their raw
individual disk form, rather than visible to the OS as a virtual volume
pre-virtualized by a hardware RAID disk array. JBODs can then be
volumized by software RAID into concats, stripes, mirrors, RAID 5, and
other RAID modes.

Well, then you should adjust your language to the standards that cover
this, unless you want to be misunderstood. JBOD does mean "Just a
Bunch Of Disks", but "Just a Bunch Of Disks" is a RAID mode
also known as SPAN, concat or append mode.

A reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_RAID_levels

Arno

Previously David Boyer wrote:
See Nik's reply above? That's what a useful response looks like. He actually
answered the question.

You can cite Wikipedia all day as though it's implicitly authoritative, but
the reality is that numerous vendors are selling JBODs that don't match the
"standard" definition. Maybe they need to consult with wikipedia or Arno
before those items go to market.

Maybe they need to read up waht terms mean before using them.

JBOD seems to be a broad term applied to
multi-disk SAN-type enclosures that aren't being connected to a fabric.

Maybe in marketing-speak. In engineering it has a meaning that is
the one e.g. described in wikipedia. You can also do a google-search
for the term and see what you find there or you can look into
manufacturer documentation.

Maybe I should have said "multi drive SATA enclosure" instead of JBOD.

Now there is a term that actually matches your intention.

Now,
can you answer the question, or is nit-picking pretty much the limit of what
you can contribute?

Term clarification is not nit-picking. It is essential for meaningful
communication. Even more when vendors start to use terms that already
have a different meaning for their own thing, maybe because it sounds
cool.

As to your original question, no, the only variant I know is
using individual eSATA disks, since they are packaged for separate
storage. In principle the external SATA RAID enclosures you are talking
about can all use eSATA instead of internal SATA, since it is identical
on the software side. On the hardware side, you may need to stay within
SATA cable lenght limits (1m) to make it work with internal SATA
controllers.

But quite frankly, as with regard to resonable disk protection
for storege, I am less than impressed with current eSATA enclosures.
The ones I havve seen do not have reasonable shock protection (i.e.
they are pretty equivalent to a bare drive), no moisture seals and
no dust seals.

I think the best option is to use the internal removable bays
and add your own packaging. Depending on what you need an
anti-static bag and two layers of high-quality bubble wrap may be
enough. There are also HDD shiping containers that have 5cm
of foam-rubber in all directions. Combine that with an anti-static
bag and there you go. Yes, I know this is stupid, but there seems
to be no market for what you want. And yes, I agree that this
would be a good idea to have available.

Arno



"Arno Wagner" wrote in message
...
Previously Yousuf Khan wrote:
Arno Wagner wrote:
Previously David Boyer wrote:
If you lose one disk, you shouldn't lose everything IF the JBOD is
configured properly. You can usually use mirroring, RAID 5, RAID 6, and
RAID
10, and any other methods you would use to survive one or more disk
failures.

JBOD is a RAID mode. It just places the individual disks sectors one
after another and supports differently sized disks. JBOD is not
RAID 1/5/10 or any other redundant RAID level. JBOD is sometimes
called APPEND mode (e.g. by the Linux LVM).

Depending on the JBOD vendor, the array config is stored on each
of the physical disks, so you can remove a disk or diskset and pop it
in a
year later and have it back online just by installing the drives. We've
been
doing backups to a 6TB SATA JBOD for nearly two years, and it works
great.
The problem with our JBOD is that drives are hot-swappable, but aren't
otherwise designed to be modular.

Maybe you mean something else than the Just a Bunch Of Disks RAID
mode here?


To me, JBOD means "Just a Bunch Of Disks". That's a system where each of
the individual disks is visible to the operating system in their raw
individual disk form, rather than visible to the OS as a virtual volume
pre-virtualized by a hardware RAID disk array. JBODs can then be
volumized by software RAID into concats, stripes, mirrors, RAID 5, and
other RAID modes.

Well, then you should adjust your language to the standards that cover
this, unless you want to be misunderstood. JBOD does mean "Just a
Bunch Of Disks", but "Just a Bunch Of Disks" is a RAID mode
also known as SPAN, concat or append mode.

A reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_RAID_levels

Arno

Previously David Boyer wrote:
See Nik's reply above? That's what a useful response looks like. He actually
answered the question.

Well, as to that, ProStore simply seems to use 2.5" laptop disks,
which are inherently more robust than 3.5" disks (because of the
intended application). It does not look to me like they actually
add much of value to the bare drive. And of course you take
a performance and a cost and a capacity hit with this approach.

Arno