"Backing Up for Small Business"

"Backing Up for Small Business"
https://www.backblaze.com/blog/backi...mall-business/

"Here’s another sobering statistic: Lots of businesses never backup their data. One-third, according to one recent survey. Talk about
flying without a net! What’s worse, almost half of all businesses only have a single copy of their backup data."

Yup. I prefer rotating external USB drives offsite myself.

Lynn

On 9/6/2016 2:52 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
"Backing Up for Small Business"
https://www.backblaze.com/blog/backi...mall-business/

"Here’s another sobering statistic: Lots of businesses never backup
their data. One-third, according to one recent survey. Talk about flying
without a net! What’s worse, almost half of all businesses only have a
single copy of their backup data."

Yup. I prefer rotating external USB drives offsite myself.

I have had friends who use their computer complain to me, because they
know I am a computer programmer, when something crashes or goes wrong
and they lose data. When I mention to them that they should back up
their data to external hard drives I get the blankest stares you can
imagine, even after I explain to them how to do it. Evidently 99% of
computer users have no idea that they can back up their data and later
restore it if they encounter problems. No wonder many businesses do not
backup their data if the average end-user has absolutely no idea that
they can do so to avoid data loss.

One of the very first things new users of computers should both be
taught and be provided with the means to do so, is to backup their data
for subsequent restoration if they have problems. But evidently the vast
majority of those people who sell computers ( or computer parts for
those like me who build them ) do not see this as a monetarily
successful thing to do, so it is not done.


Lynn

Lynn McGuire wrote

"Backing Up for Small Business"
https://www.backblaze.com/blog/backi...mall-business/

"Here’s another sobering statistic: Lots of businesses never backup their
data. One-third, according to one recent survey. Talk about flying without
a net! What’s worse, almost half of all businesses only have a single copy
of their backup data."

Yup. I prefer rotating external USB drives offsite myself.

Me too, but bugger all small businesses do that.

With those there is a lot to be said for cloud
backup which at least happens automatically.

Edward Diener wrote
Lynn McGuire wrote

"Backing Up for Small Business"
https://www.backblaze.com/blog/backi...mall-business/

"Here’s another sobering statistic: Lots of businesses never backup their
data. One-third, according to one recent survey. Talk about flying
without a net! What’s worse, almost half of all businesses only have a
single copy of their backup data."

Yup. I prefer rotating external USB drives offsite myself.

I have had friends who use their computer complain to me, because they
know I am a computer programmer, when something crashes or goes wrong and
they lose data. When I mention to them that they should back up their data
to external hard drives I get the blankest stares you can imagine, even
after I explain to them how to do it. Evidently 99% of computer users have
no idea that they can back up their data and later restore it if they
encounter problems.

That’s not so true now with the best of the smartphones and tablets.

No wonder many businesses do not backup their data if the average end-user
has absolutely no idea that they can do so to avoid data loss.

The average end user does now with their photos and
emails with the best of the smartphones and tablets.

One of the very first things new users of computers should both be taught
and be provided with the means to do so, is to backup their data for
subsequent restoration if they have problems.

Trouble is that hardly any of them will keep doing it whatever
they are taught.

But evidently the vast majority of those people who sell computers ( or
computer parts for those like me who build them ) do not see this as a
monetarily successful thing to do,

Its much more that they realise that no matter how
its taught, its impossible to get them to keep doing it.

so it is not done.

Its not done because they know it doesn’t work.

On 9/8/2016 3:52 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
Edward Diener wrote
Lynn McGuire wrote

"Backing Up for Small Business"
https://www.backblaze.com/blog/backi...mall-business/

"Here’s another sobering statistic: Lots of businesses never backup
their data. One-third, according to one recent survey. Talk about
flying without a net! What’s worse, almost half of all businesses
only have a single copy of their backup data."

Yup. I prefer rotating external USB drives offsite myself.

I have had friends who use their computer complain to me, because they
know I am a computer programmer, when something crashes or goes wrong
and they lose data. When I mention to them that they should back up
their data to external hard drives I get the blankest stares you can
imagine, even after I explain to them how to do it. Evidently 99% of
computer users have no idea that they can back up their data and later
restore it if they encounter problems.

That’s not so true now with the best of the smartphones and tablets.

No wonder many businesses do not backup their data if the average
end-user has absolutely no idea that they can do so to avoid data loss.

The average end user does now with their photos and
emails with the best of the smartphones and tablets.

Photos and emails are just a small subset of data which I regularly
backup. For smartphones there are backup mechanisms to cloud storage
built into most of them. For tablets ( I don't have one ) I would expect
much more data needing to be backed up. With laptops and desktops if
someone isn't backing up their partitions on a regular schedule ( once a
month is my goal ) they could easily lose their data if things go wrong.


One of the very first things new users of computers should both be
taught and be provided with the means to do so, is to backup their
data for subsequent restoration if they have problems.

Trouble is that hardly any of them will keep doing it whatever
they are taught.

I think they might if the process were made easy enough and were
automated enough. It's not the time most people would balk at, but the
technology needed to do it. Backup technology from within the major Oss
is still very crude at best. So crude still that I backup all the
partitions on my hard drives from bootable DVDs ( gparted, minitools )
and not from within any particular OS.


But evidently the vast majority of those people who sell computers (
or computer parts for those like me who build them ) do not see this
as a monetarily successful thing to do,

Its much more that they realise that no matter how
its taught, its impossible to get them to keep doing it.

Could be.


so it is not done.

Its not done because they know it doesn’t work.

Human failing should never be an excuse not to create better technology.

"Edward Diener" wrote in message
...
On 9/8/2016 3:52 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
Edward Diener wrote
Lynn McGuire wrote

"Backing Up for Small Business"
https://www.backblaze.com/blog/backi...mall-business/

"Here’s another sobering statistic: Lots of businesses never backup
their data. One-third, according to one recent survey. Talk about
flying without a net! What’s worse, almost half of all businesses
only have a single copy of their backup data."

Yup. I prefer rotating external USB drives offsite myself.

I have had friends who use their computer complain to me, because they
know I am a computer programmer, when something crashes or goes wrong
and they lose data. When I mention to them that they should back up
their data to external hard drives I get the blankest stares you can
imagine, even after I explain to them how to do it. Evidently 99% of
computer users have no idea that they can back up their data and later
restore it if they encounter problems.

That’s not so true now with the best of the smartphones and tablets.

No wonder many businesses do not backup their data if the average
end-user has absolutely no idea that they can do so to avoid data loss.

The average end user does now with their photos and
emails with the best of the smartphones and tablets.

Photos and emails are just a small subset of data which I regularly
backup.

Irrelevant to the situation for the AVERAGE END USER.

For smartphones there are backup mechanisms to cloud storage built into
most of them. For tablets ( I don't have one ) I would expect much more
data needing to be backed up.

You're wrong. Most of the average end users use them just
like they do their smartphones, just with a much bigger
screen and obviously don’t take as many photos with them
because they are rather less portable for that situation.

With laptops and desktops if someone isn't backing up their partitions on
a regular schedule ( once a month is my goal ) they could easily lose
their data if things go wrong.

Like I said, the AVERAGE END USERS doesn’t have a lot to lose
except their photos and those hardly ever originate on the laptop
or desktop and so are backed up by the mechanism used on the
smartphone etc where they were taken.

And most have their emails automatically backed up on the
email server site now too, even if they do email from their
laptop or desktop.

And even with stuff like say school assignments and stuff like that,
its completely trivial to have that completely automatically backed
up using a cloud when they are produced on the laptop or desktop.

One of the very first things new users of computers should both be
taught and be provided with the means to do so, is to backup their data
for subsequent restoration if they have problems.

Trouble is that hardly any of them will keep doing it whatever they are
taught.

I think they might

I know they don’t because I have been trying to do that for decades now.

if the process were made easy enough and were automated enough.

It can't be except with backup to the cloud.

It's not the time most people would balk at, but the technology needed to
do it.

The technology is here now with backup to the cloud.

Backup technology from within the major Oss is still very crude at best.

That's a lie. The problem is that it isnt completely
automatic except with backup to the cloud.

So crude still that I backup all the partitions on my hard drives from
bootable DVDs ( gparted, minitools )

Dinosaur stuff. Anyone with even half a clue does it
to an external hard drive, not bootable DVDs now.

and not from within any particular OS.

And that can't ever be completely automatic.

But evidently the vast majority of those people who sell computers (or
computer parts for those like me who build them ) do not see this as a
monetarily successful thing to do,

Its much more that they realise that no matter how
its taught, its impossible to get them to keep doing it.

Could be.

so it is not done.

Its not done because they know it doesn’t work.

Human failing should never be an excuse not to create better technology.

Better technology has been created, automatic backup to the cloud.

On 9/10/2016 4:17 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Edward Diener" wrote in message
...
On 9/8/2016 3:52 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
Edward Diener wrote
Lynn McGuire wrote

"Backing Up for Small Business"
https://www.backblaze.com/blog/backi...mall-business/

"Here’s another sobering statistic: Lots of businesses never backup
their data. One-third, according to one recent survey. Talk about
flying without a net! What’s worse, almost half of all businesses
only have a single copy of their backup data."

Yup. I prefer rotating external USB drives offsite myself.

I have had friends who use their computer complain to me, because they
know I am a computer programmer, when something crashes or goes wrong
and they lose data. When I mention to them that they should back up
their data to external hard drives I get the blankest stares you can
imagine, even after I explain to them how to do it. Evidently 99% of
computer users have no idea that they can back up their data and later
restore it if they encounter problems.

That’s not so true now with the best of the smartphones and tablets.

No wonder many businesses do not backup their data if the average
end-user has absolutely no idea that they can do so to avoid data loss.

The average end user does now with their photos and
emails with the best of the smartphones and tablets.

Photos and emails are just a small subset of data which I regularly
backup.

Irrelevant to the situation for the AVERAGE END USER.

For smartphones there are backup mechanisms to cloud storage built
into most of them. For tablets ( I don't have one ) I would expect
much more data needing to be backed up.

You're wrong. Most of the average end users use them just
like they do their smartphones, just with a much bigger
screen and obviously don’t take as many photos with them
because they are rather less portable for that situation.

With laptops and desktops if someone isn't backing up their partitions
on a regular schedule ( once a month is my goal ) they could easily
lose their data if things go wrong.

Like I said, the AVERAGE END USERS doesn’t have a lot to lose
except their photos and those hardly ever originate on the laptop
or desktop and so are backed up by the mechanism used on the
smartphone etc where they were taken.

And most have their emails automatically backed up on the
email server site now too, even if they do email from their
laptop or desktop.

And even with stuff like say school assignments and stuff like that,
its completely trivial to have that completely automatically backed
up using a cloud when they are produced on the laptop or desktop.


Your assumption is that everyone should accept cloud storage, even
though it is not under their own control. I would argue that end-users
would be more comfortable if they could backup to some local device,
like an external hard drive. Or merely that they can be given a choice.

One of the very first things new users of computers should both be
taught and be provided with the means to do so, is to backup their
data for subsequent restoration if they have problems.

Trouble is that hardly any of them will keep doing it whatever they
are taught.

I think they might

I know they don’t because I have been trying to do that for decades now.

if the process were made easy enough and were automated enough.

It can't be except with backup to the cloud.

I don't see that.


It's not the time most people would balk at, but the technology needed
to do it.

The technology is here now with backup to the cloud.

Backup technology from within the major Oss is still very crude at best.

That's a lie. The problem is that it isnt completely
automatic except with backup to the cloud.

So crude still that I backup all the partitions on my hard drives from
bootable DVDs ( gparted, minitools )

Dinosaur stuff. Anyone with even half a clue does it
to an external hard drive, not bootable DVDs now.

You misread what I wrote. I use bootable DVDs to bring up gparted and/or
minitools from the DVD so I can backup my partitions to external drives.


and not from within any particular OS.

And that can't ever be completely automatic.

You are right, but since the major OSs offer no easy solution for the
way I want to backup my data, I choose to do it that way.

Now let's take a major OS, Windows for example. Does Windows have an
automatic solution built into the OS by which I tell it to to backup my
current partitions to an external drive from snapshots it automatically
takes while I go on with my work ? How about Linux ? How about the Mac ?
Why is this technology so hard to accomplish and automate. And why can't
I conversely restore whatever files I want from the latest automatic
backups previously backed up to external storage in an automated way ?
Again this is not "rocket science" technology.

These are the practical things that should be built into major operating
systems instead of the plethora of bells and whistles always being
thrown at the end-user to "sell" the product.

What I am claiming is that the computer manufacturers and the OS vendors
are not looking out for the AVERAGE END USER, in this respect. Even
given your understandable feeling that the average end user is not a
very knowledgable or efficient user of computer systems, I still see no
technological reason why backup/restore systems of all/any data within
the partitions of an OS can't be automated as part of OS technology,
whether that backup occurs to the cloud on some Internet server or to an
end-user's local devices.


But evidently the vast majority of those people who sell computers
(or computer parts for those like me who build them ) do not see
this as a monetarily successful thing to do,

Its much more that they realise that no matter how
its taught, its impossible to get them to keep doing it.

Could be.

so it is not done.

Its not done because they know it doesn’t work.

Human failing should never be an excuse not to create better technology.

Better technology has been created, automatic backup to the cloud.

I don't agree this is better technology because I do not think that
backing up one's own sensitive data to some server on the Internet over
which I have no control is the best solution. It's a solution but I do
not see it as the only one or even the optimal one for all end-users. If
I have private, sensitive data on my local computer, and almost every
one has such data in some form or another, I may not feel good about
that data being in the cloud server.

"Edward Diener" wrote in message
...
On 9/10/2016 4:17 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Edward Diener" wrote in message
...
On 9/8/2016 3:52 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
Edward Diener wrote
Lynn McGuire wrote

"Backing Up for Small Business"
https://www.backblaze.com/blog/backi...mall-business/

"Here’s another sobering statistic: Lots of businesses never backup
their data. One-third, according to one recent survey. Talk about
flying without a net! What’s worse, almost half of all businesses
only have a single copy of their backup data."

Yup. I prefer rotating external USB drives offsite myself.

I have had friends who use their computer complain to me, because they
know I am a computer programmer, when something crashes or goes wrong
and they lose data. When I mention to them that they should back up
their data to external hard drives I get the blankest stares you can
imagine, even after I explain to them how to do it. Evidently 99% of
computer users have no idea that they can back up their data and later
restore it if they encounter problems.

That’s not so true now with the best of the smartphones and tablets.

No wonder many businesses do not backup their data if the average
end-user has absolutely no idea that they can do so to avoid data
loss.

The average end user does now with their photos and
emails with the best of the smartphones and tablets.

Photos and emails are just a small subset of data which I regularly
backup.

Irrelevant to the situation for the AVERAGE END USER.

For smartphones there are backup mechanisms to cloud storage built
into most of them. For tablets ( I don't have one ) I would expect
much more data needing to be backed up.

You're wrong. Most of the average end users use them just
like they do their smartphones, just with a much bigger
screen and obviously don’t take as many photos with them
because they are rather less portable for that situation.

With laptops and desktops if someone isn't backing up their partitions
on a regular schedule ( once a month is my goal ) they could easily
lose their data if things go wrong.

Like I said, the AVERAGE END USERS doesn’t have a lot to lose
except their photos and those hardly ever originate on the laptop
or desktop and so are backed up by the mechanism used on the
smartphone etc where they were taken.

And most have their emails automatically backed up on the
email server site now too, even if they do email from their
laptop or desktop.

And even with stuff like say school assignments and stuff like that,
its completely trivial to have that completely automatically backed
up using a cloud when they are produced on the laptop or desktop.


Your assumption

No assumption involved at all.

is that everyone should accept cloud storage,

Never said that either. I was JUST pointing out that
if you don’t reliably backup your systems then cloud
backup is a hell of a lot better than not backing up.

even though it is not under their own control.

Irrelevant.

I would argue that end-users would be more comfortable if they could
backup to some local device, like an external hard drive.

But the problem is that very few of them do that reliably.

And it isnt even possible to do that completely
automatically with the external hard drive removed offsite
so that your backup is safe from theft, fire, flood etc.

Only backup to a cloud can ever do that completely automatically.

There are a few situations where something close is
possible completely automatically like with a NAS
that is kept in a fireproof safe for example but that
only works if the fireproof safe can't be flood affected.

Or merely that they can be given a choice.

Nothing else works completely automatically.

One of the very first things new users of computers should both be
taught and be provided with the means to do so, is to backup their
data for subsequent restoration if they have problems.

Trouble is that hardly any of them will keep doing it whatever they
are taught.

I think they might

I know they don’t because I have been trying to do that for decades now.

if the process were made easy enough and were automated enough.

It can't be except with backup to the cloud.

I don't see that.

See above.

It's not the time most people would balk at, but the technology needed
to do it.

The technology is here now with backup to the cloud.

Backup technology from within the major Oss is still very crude at best.

That's a lie. The problem is that it isnt completely
automatic except with backup to the cloud.

So crude still that I backup all the partitions on my hard drives from
bootable DVDs ( gparted, minitools )

Dinosaur stuff. Anyone with even half a clue does it
to an external hard drive, not bootable DVDs now.

You misread what I wrote.

True.

I use bootable DVDs to bring up gparted and/or minitools from the DVD so I
can backup my partitions to external drives.

and not from within any particular OS.

And that can't ever be completely automatic.

You are right, but since the major OSs offer no easy solution for the way
I want to backup my data,

That's a lie.

I choose to do it that way.

Now let's take a major OS, Windows for example. Does Windows have an
automatic solution built into the OS by which I tell it to to backup my
current partitions to an external drive from snapshots it automatically
takes while I go on with my work ?

Doesn’t have to be built in, trivial to add.

How about Linux ?

Yes, it is built in with linux.

How about the Mac ?

Yes, it is built in with that too.

Why is this technology so hard to accomplish and automate.

Wrong. It is in fact trivially easy to do that. The
only difficulty is that there is no way to actually
get the external hard drive offsite automatically.

And why can't I conversely restore whatever files I want from the latest
automatic backups previously backed up to external storage in an automated
way ?

You can with all of those, but there is no point in doing that.

Again this is not "rocket science" technology.

Which is why its been available for decades now.

These are the practical things that should be built into major operating
systems

It is with most of them and trivial to add to those where it isnt.

instead of the plethora of bells and whistles always being thrown at the
end-user to "sell" the product.

There is no instead of.

What I am claiming is that the computer manufacturers and the OS vendors
are not looking out for the AVERAGE END USER, in this respect.

Corse they are. And linux isnt for average end users anyway.

Even given your understandable feeling that the average end user is not a
very knowledgable or efficient user of computer systems, I still see no
technological reason why backup/restore systems of all/any data within the
partitions of an OS can't be automated as part of OS technology, whether
that backup occurs to the cloud on some Internet server or to an
end-user's local devices.

That is in fact available right now with both Macs
and iOS devices and is trivial to add to Win systems.

But evidently the vast majority of those people who sell computers (or
computer parts for those like me who build them ) do not see this as a
monetarily successful thing to do,

Its much more that they realise that no matter how
its taught, its impossible to get them to keep doing it.

Could be.

so it is not done.

Its not done because they know it doesn’t work.

Human failing should never be an excuse not to create better technology.

Better technology has been created, automatic backup to the cloud.

I don't agree this is better technology

It is anyway, particularly with fully automatic offsite backup.

because I do not think that backing up one's own sensitive data

Trivial to encrypt that data before it ever leaves your system.

to some server on the Internet over which I have no control is the best
solution.

It is for those who cannot be relied on to reliably
backup their systems, and that is almost all end
users and almost all small business. And it fixes the
difficulty with fully automatic offsite backup too.

It's a solution but I do not see it as the only one or even the optimal
one for all end-users.

Having fun thrashing that straw man ?
I never ever said it was for all end users.

If I have private, sensitive data on my local computer, and almost every
one has such data in some form or another, I may not feel good about that
data being in the cloud server.

Completely trivial to encrypt it before it ever leaves your system.

On 9/11/2016 1:49 AM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Edward Diener" wrote in message
...
On 9/10/2016 4:17 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Edward Diener" wrote in message
...
On 9/8/2016 3:52 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
Edward Diener wrote
Lynn McGuire wrote

"Backing Up for Small Business"
https://www.backblaze.com/blog/backi...mall-business/

"Here’s another sobering statistic: Lots of businesses never backup
their data. One-third, according to one recent survey. Talk about
flying without a net! What’s worse, almost half of all businesses
only have a single copy of their backup data."

Yup. I prefer rotating external USB drives offsite myself.

I have had friends who use their computer complain to me, because
they
know I am a computer programmer, when something crashes or goes wrong
and they lose data. When I mention to them that they should back up
their data to external hard drives I get the blankest stares you can
imagine, even after I explain to them how to do it. Evidently 99% of
computer users have no idea that they can back up their data and
later
restore it if they encounter problems.

That’s not so true now with the best of the smartphones and tablets.

No wonder many businesses do not backup their data if the average
end-user has absolutely no idea that they can do so to avoid data
loss.

The average end user does now with their photos and
emails with the best of the smartphones and tablets.

Photos and emails are just a small subset of data which I regularly
backup.

Irrelevant to the situation for the AVERAGE END USER.

For smartphones there are backup mechanisms to cloud storage built
into most of them. For tablets ( I don't have one ) I would expect
much more data needing to be backed up.

You're wrong. Most of the average end users use them just
like they do their smartphones, just with a much bigger
screen and obviously don’t take as many photos with them
because they are rather less portable for that situation.

With laptops and desktops if someone isn't backing up their partitions
on a regular schedule ( once a month is my goal ) they could easily
lose their data if things go wrong.

Like I said, the AVERAGE END USERS doesn’t have a lot to lose
except their photos and those hardly ever originate on the laptop
or desktop and so are backed up by the mechanism used on the
smartphone etc where they were taken.

And most have their emails automatically backed up on the
email server site now too, even if they do email from their
laptop or desktop.

And even with stuff like say school assignments and stuff like that,
its completely trivial to have that completely automatically backed
up using a cloud when they are produced on the laptop or desktop.


Your assumption

No assumption involved at all.

is that everyone should accept cloud storage,

Never said that either. I was JUST pointing out that
if you don’t reliably backup your systems then cloud
backup is a hell of a lot better than not backing up.

OK, I can understand that.


even though it is not under their own control.

Irrelevant.

I would argue that end-users would be more comfortable if they could
backup to some local device, like an external hard drive.

But the problem is that very few of them do that reliably.

And it isnt even possible to do that completely
automatically with the external hard drive removed offsite
so that your backup is safe from theft, fire, flood etc.

Only backup to a cloud can ever do that completely automatically.

Bringing an external drive from offsite and attaching it to a computer
for backup is not a physically taxing to do.


There are a few situations where something close is
possible completely automatically like with a NAS
that is kept in a fireproof safe for example but that
only works if the fireproof safe can't be flood affected.

Or merely that they can be given a choice.

Nothing else works completely automatically.

One of the very first things new users of computers should both be
taught and be provided with the means to do so, is to backup their
data for subsequent restoration if they have problems.

Trouble is that hardly any of them will keep doing it whatever they
are taught.

I think they might

I know they don’t because I have been trying to do that for decades now.

if the process were made easy enough and were automated enough.

It can't be except with backup to the cloud.

I don't see that.

See above.

It's not the time most people would balk at, but the technology needed
to do it.

The technology is here now with backup to the cloud.

Backup technology from within the major Oss is still very crude at
best.

That's a lie. The problem is that it isnt completely
automatic except with backup to the cloud.

So crude still that I backup all the partitions on my hard drives from
bootable DVDs ( gparted, minitools )

Dinosaur stuff. Anyone with even half a clue does it
to an external hard drive, not bootable DVDs now.

You misread what I wrote.

True.

I use bootable DVDs to bring up gparted and/or minitools from the DVD
so I can backup my partitions to external drives.

and not from within any particular OS.

And that can't ever be completely automatic.

You are right, but since the major OSs offer no easy solution for the
way I want to backup my data,

That's a lie.

I choose to do it that way.

Now let's take a major OS, Windows for example. Does Windows have an
automatic solution built into the OS by which I tell it to to backup
my current partitions to an external drive from snapshots it
automatically takes while I go on with my work ?

Doesn’t have to be built in, trivial to add.

How would you add it trivially ? Remember I am talking about your
average end-user, not a computer expert ?


How about Linux ?

Yes, it is built in with linux.

Please tell me where it is built-in to Linux.


How about the Mac ?

Yes, it is built in with that too.

Ditto. Please tell me where it is built-in to the Mac.


Why is this technology so hard to accomplish and automate.

Wrong. It is in fact trivially easy to do that. The
only difficulty is that there is no way to actually
get the external hard drive offsite automatically.

And why can't I conversely restore whatever files I want from the
latest automatic backups previously backed up to external storage in
an automated way ?

You can with all of those, but there is no point in doing that.

Again this is not "rocket science" technology.

Which is why its been available for decades now.

These are the practical things that should be built into major
operating systems

It is with most of them and trivial to add to those where it isnt.

instead of the plethora of bells and whistles always being thrown at
the end-user to "sell" the product.

There is no instead of.

What I am claiming is that the computer manufacturers and the OS
vendors are not looking out for the AVERAGE END USER, in this respect.

Corse they are. And linux isnt for average end users anyway.

I agree that Linux in general is still not for your average user. But if
Linux wants to appeal to the average user it should provide an automated
backup solution. Again, if it does, please tell me what it is since this
Linux end-user has never encountered it, neither in KDE, Gnome, or
anywhere else.


Even given your understandable feeling that the average end user is
not a very knowledgable or efficient user of computer systems, I still
see no technological reason why backup/restore systems of all/any data
within the partitions of an OS can't be automated as part of OS
technology, whether that backup occurs to the cloud on some Internet
server or to an end-user's local devices.

That is in fact available right now with both Macs
and iOS devices and is trivial to add to Win systems.

Consider that what you think is trivial may not be so for the average user.

What I called an automated solution is a button on the end-user's OS
desktop which finds my external drive or cloud storage and automatically
starts a process that backs up all my files for possible future
restore(s). In other words something supremely easy to use. I am not
denying that flexible options should not be part of such automated
software since it should, but in its default configuration it should
work automatically. You keep saying that this is provided in Linux and
the Mac, and is trivial to add to Windows, but you are not providing any
details which would be proof of your assertion.


But evidently the vast majority of those people who sell computers
(or computer parts for those like me who build them ) do not see
this as a monetarily successful thing to do,

Its much more that they realise that no matter how
its taught, its impossible to get them to keep doing it.

Could be.

so it is not done.

Its not done because they know it doesn’t work.

Human failing should never be an excuse not to create better
technology.

Better technology has been created, automatic backup to the cloud.

I don't agree this is better technology

It is anyway, particularly with fully automatic offsite backup.

because I do not think that backing up one's own sensitive data

Trivial to encrypt that data before it ever leaves your system.

That is a good point. But I still want the end-user to have a choice of
where automated backup goes, whether locally or in the cloud.


to some server on the Internet over which I have no control is the
best solution.

It is for those who cannot be relied on to reliably
backup their systems, and that is almost all end
users and almost all small business. And it fixes the
difficulty with fully automatic offsite backup too.

It's a solution but I do not see it as the only one or even the
optimal one for all end-users.

Having fun thrashing that straw man ?
I never ever said it was for all end users.

If I have private, sensitive data on my local computer, and almost
every one has such data in some form or another, I may not feel good
about that data being in the cloud server.

Completely trivial to encrypt it before it ever leaves your system.

"Edward Diener" wrote in message
...
On 9/11/2016 1:49 AM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Edward Diener" wrote in message
...
On 9/10/2016 4:17 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"Edward Diener" wrote in message
...
On 9/8/2016 3:52 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
Edward Diener wrote
Lynn McGuire wrote

"Backing Up for Small Business"
https://www.backblaze.com/blog/backi...mall-business/

"Here’s another sobering statistic: Lots of businesses never backup
their data. One-third, according to one recent survey. Talk about
flying without a net! What’s worse, almost half of all businesses
only have a single copy of their backup data."

Yup. I prefer rotating external USB drives offsite myself.

I have had friends who use their computer complain to me, because
they
know I am a computer programmer, when something crashes or goes
wrong
and they lose data. When I mention to them that they should back up
their data to external hard drives I get the blankest stares you can
imagine, even after I explain to them how to do it. Evidently 99% of
computer users have no idea that they can back up their data and
later
restore it if they encounter problems.

That’s not so true now with the best of the smartphones and tablets.

No wonder many businesses do not backup their data if the average
end-user has absolutely no idea that they can do so to avoid data
loss.

The average end user does now with their photos and
emails with the best of the smartphones and tablets.

Photos and emails are just a small subset of data which I regularly
backup.

Irrelevant to the situation for the AVERAGE END USER.

For smartphones there are backup mechanisms to cloud storage built
into most of them. For tablets ( I don't have one ) I would expect
much more data needing to be backed up.

You're wrong. Most of the average end users use them just
like they do their smartphones, just with a much bigger
screen and obviously don’t take as many photos with them
because they are rather less portable for that situation.

With laptops and desktops if someone isn't backing up their partitions
on a regular schedule ( once a month is my goal ) they could easily
lose their data if things go wrong.

Like I said, the AVERAGE END USERS doesn’t have a lot to lose
except their photos and those hardly ever originate on the laptop
or desktop and so are backed up by the mechanism used on the
smartphone etc where they were taken.

And most have their emails automatically backed up on the
email server site now too, even if they do email from their
laptop or desktop.

And even with stuff like say school assignments and stuff like that,
its completely trivial to have that completely automatically backed
up using a cloud when they are produced on the laptop or desktop.


Your assumption

No assumption involved at all.

is that everyone should accept cloud storage,

Never said that either. I was JUST pointing out that
if you don’t reliably backup your systems then cloud
backup is a hell of a lot better than not backing up.

OK, I can understand that.


even though it is not under their own control.

Irrelevant.

I would argue that end-users would be more comfortable if they could
backup to some local device, like an external hard drive.

But the problem is that very few of them do that reliably.

And it isnt even possible to do that completely
automatically with the external hard drive removed offsite
so that your backup is safe from theft, fire, flood etc.

Only backup to a cloud can ever do that completely automatically.

Bringing an external drive from offsite and attaching it to a computer for
backup is not a physically taxing to do.

Correct, but with almost all small business being able to
do that between home and work, hardly anyone ever does
that, even when you carefully explain the advantages of
doing that for protection against fire, flood, theft etc.

With personal systems, it isnt much harder to do that
between home and work, but there are some works
that don’t allow that and even when it is allowed,
very few owners of personal systems ever do that, even
when they do understand the advantages of doing that.

There are a few situations where something close is
possible completely automatically like with a NAS
that is kept in a fireproof safe for example but that
only works if the fireproof safe can't be flood affected.

Or merely that they can be given a choice.

Nothing else works completely automatically.

One of the very first things new users of computers should both be
taught and be provided with the means to do so, is to backup their
data for subsequent restoration if they have problems.

Trouble is that hardly any of them will keep doing it whatever they
are taught.

I think they might

I know they don’t because I have been trying to do that for decades
now.

if the process were made easy enough and were automated enough.

It can't be except with backup to the cloud.

I don't see that.

See above.

It's not the time most people would balk at, but the technology needed
to do it.

The technology is here now with backup to the cloud.

Backup technology from within the major Oss is still very crude at
best.

That's a lie. The problem is that it isnt completely
automatic except with backup to the cloud.

So crude still that I backup all the partitions on my hard drives from
bootable DVDs ( gparted, minitools )

Dinosaur stuff. Anyone with even half a clue does it
to an external hard drive, not bootable DVDs now.

You misread what I wrote.

True.

I use bootable DVDs to bring up gparted and/or minitools from the DVD
so I can backup my partitions to external drives.

and not from within any particular OS.

And that can't ever be completely automatic.

You are right, but since the major OSs offer no easy solution for the
way I want to backup my data,

That's a lie.

I choose to do it that way.

Now let's take a major OS, Windows for example. Does Windows have an
automatic solution built into the OS by which I tell it to to backup
my current partitions to an external drive from snapshots it
automatically takes while I go on with my work ?

Doesn’t have to be built in, trivial to add.

How would you add it trivially ?

Just use a decent backup app.

Remember I am talking about your average end-user, not a computer expert ?

Just as true with those.

How about Linux ?

Yes, it is built in with linux.

Please tell me where it is built-in to Linux.

Plenty of ways to do that with rsynch etc.

How about the Mac ?

Yes, it is built in with that too.

Ditto. Please tell me where it is built-in to the Mac.

Current Macs have a decent backup system built in.

So does Win.

Why is this technology so hard to accomplish and automate.

Wrong. It is in fact trivially easy to do that. The
only difficulty is that there is no way to actually
get the external hard drive offsite automatically.

And why can't I conversely restore whatever files I want from the
latest automatic backups previously backed up to external storage in
an automated way ?

You can with all of those, but there is no point in doing that.

Again this is not "rocket science" technology.

Which is why its been available for decades now.

These are the practical things that should be built into major
operating systems

It is with most of them and trivial to add to those where it isnt.

instead of the plethora of bells and whistles always being thrown at
the end-user to "sell" the product.

There is no instead of.

What I am claiming is that the computer manufacturers and the OS
vendors are not looking out for the AVERAGE END USER, in this respect.

Corse they are. And linux isnt for average end users anyway.

I agree that Linux in general is still not for your average user. But if
Linux wants to appeal to the average user

It doesn’t.

it should provide an automated backup solution.

It does.

Again, if it does, please tell me what it is since this Linux end-user has
never encountered it, neither in KDE, Gnome, or anywhere else.

You just don’t know how to use it to do that.

Even given your understandable feeling that the average end user is
not a very knowledgable or efficient user of computer systems, I still
see no technological reason why backup/restore systems of all/any data
within the partitions of an OS can't be automated as part of OS
technology, whether that backup occurs to the cloud on some Internet
server or to an end-user's local devices.

That is in fact available right now with both Macs
and iOS devices and is trivial to add to Win systems.

Consider that what you think is trivial may not be so for the average
user.

It is for average users with all except Linux.

What I called an automated solution is a button on the end-user's OS
desktop

That's just one way of doing it. And that isnt fully automated in
the sense that the backup happens completely automatically
at the frequency you specify once you have set that up.

which finds my external drive or cloud storage and automatically starts a
process that backs up all my files for possible future restore(s).

In other words something supremely easy to use.

iOS is that in spades, same with the Mac. Not quite as easy
with Win but still very easy for the average user, just type
backup into the text box in the start menu, select the
rather obvious word backup in the list of apps, tell it
what you want to do destination wise with the external
hard drive, tell it how often you want that to happen etc.

With iOS you don’t even have to be aware of when wifi
is available, it will work that out for itself and incrementally
move what has not yet been backed up to the cloud etc.
You don’t even have to specify which cloud, that is fixed.

I am not denying that flexible options should not be part of such
automated software since it should, but in its default configuration it
should work automatically.

Not feasible because some don’t want their stuff backed
up to the cloud for various reasons and there is no way
to ensure that there will always be an external hard drive
with all desktops and laptops etc.

You keep saying that this is provided in Linux and the Mac, and is trivial
to add to Windows, but you are not providing any details which would be
proof of your assertion.

It isnt an assertion, its a fact.

But evidently the vast majority of those people who sell computers
(or computer parts for those like me who build them ) do not see
this as a monetarily successful thing to do,

Its much more that they realise that no matter how
its taught, its impossible to get them to keep doing it.

Could be.

so it is not done.

Its not done because they know it doesn’t work.

Human failing should never be an excuse not to create better
technology.

Better technology has been created, automatic backup to the cloud.

I don't agree this is better technology

It is anyway, particularly with fully automatic offsite backup.

because I do not think that backing up one's own sensitive data

Trivial to encrypt that data before it ever leaves your system.

That is a good point. But I still want the end-user to have a choice of
where automated backup goes, whether locally or in the cloud.

They do. And which cloud to use with all except the built in backup
that iOS has, because that only works with icloud. You are however
free to add completely automatic backup to other clouds if you
prefer them. Completely trivial, just get the app from the store,
pay the operation what they want to charge, have completely
automated backup happen whenever it is possible.

Not much harder to do the backup using itunes,
but that one can't be automated completely
because you do need to physically plug the
idevice into whatever you run itunes on and
that isnt possible with linux.

But the backup of your most important stuff is
completely automatic on iOS when you allow
it to automatically backup your photos to the
cloud and use imessage and email for your
emails and texts and have all the files that
you create in one of the clouds etc.

No specific action at all is required of the user
to have what apps they have got for free or have
paid for kept track of completely automatically
so that if your idevice does die completely,
its completely trivial to replace it and
restore all the apps to the replacement.

to some server on the Internet over which I have no control is the best
solution.

It is for those who cannot be relied on to reliably
backup their systems, and that is almost all end
users and almost all small business. And it fixes the
difficulty with fully automatic offsite backup too.

It's a solution but I do not see it as the only one or even the
optimal one for all end-users.

Having fun thrashing that straw man ?
I never ever said it was for all end users.

If I have private, sensitive data on my local computer, and almost
every one has such data in some form or another, I may not feel good
about that data being in the cloud server.

Completely trivial to encrypt it before it ever leaves your system.