build or buy?

"tweak" wrote in message
...
Mobo's for around 50-70 bucks(MSI socket A's or P3/P4)
My current system cost me about 400 bucks total.
Compaq 7110 cpu(socket a with 1.2 gig cpu and 1gig ram.)
80 gig ata 133 HD with controller.
cd burner and dvd player.
Monitor- sony 17 inch vio with built in stereo and sub channel- 50
bucks clearance price.
I just added a dvd burner for 110 bucks.(Liteon 411S at a clearance
price.)

And I see there's no operating system there, as I already mentioned.

Dude! Don't tell me you actually PAY for an OS!

No, I think you and most of the rest of the people in this thread are
missing the point. The point is what the OP wants, given his priorities.
This is an enthusiast newsgroup. Our priorities are normally going to be
different than the OP's. So based on the question that was asked, rather
than the question you really want to answer, what is your advice? Does this
person sound like someone who wants to install Linux? Does this person
sound like someone who is willing to spend time and/or money to figure out
what to do to get a built-from-scratch system working? Does this person
sound like someone who won't be using Windows? Does this person sound like
someone who is willing to spend a little more to get the exact components
he's searching for?

"JAD" wrote in message
nk.net...
go buy a dell...you can build cheap if that's what you want,, as 'cheap'
as a dell? sure if you want to use 'cheap' peripherals.
Building your own is not 'about' saving, but it can be. Build it as easy
has having some moron put it together? Nope, takes some
shopping...BTW its spelled ****Machine.

My ****Machine has been working great for me. I put in a Ti4200 and more
memory and it plays everything great. It doesn't have the power supply that
I'd buy if I were building from scratch. In fact I doubt it has anything in
it that I'd buy if I were starting from scratch. But then it wouldn't cost
$250 to put together the components that I'd use to start from scratch
either. So let's say you can put together a machine that's "as cheap" as a
Dell. What have you bought? You still have to do the work to put it
together yourself. Then when it doesn't boot when you hit the power button,
what are you gonna do? And I still say that when you add in the cost of
Windows, you really can't beat it. Now if you don't want Windows, then a
Dell is probably not for you anyway. But let's remember who we're giving
advice to - the OP, not a PC enthusiast.

wrote in message
...

Oh for god's sake. You've been playing too much Deus Ex. Dell's support
is
infinitely better than what you'd get if you build your own computer.
You
folks need to get some perspective. The OP came here mentioning only one
priority - price.

He was being brief. I don't have to be. He said:
"I am not an experienced builder, but have been swapping out parts for
years."
Which doesn't sound like someone I'd like to send off to become a
powerless Dell victim. He also said:
"...or, following the advice I culled from
weeks of lurking, buy stuff from newegg and assemble at home."
- I'ts sounds like someone who is genuinly interested, and ready to
take the next step.

Then people tell him he should build because he can get
his exact components (not a priority) and that the computer will be
supported (that's the absolute WORST part about building your own.) I've
built all my computers - never bought a Dell. But I wouldn't recommend
it
for everyone. You do not lose your "rights" to have what you want. You
go
one route or the other depending on your priorities. Each has advantages
and disadvantages. Failure to consider priorities, and Orwellian
paranoid
theories have no place in the discussion.

There is nothing "Orwellian paranoid" in JAD's argument. On the
contrary, I'm convinced everything will come about, eventually.

OK you have a point. But still the main thing I got out of the OP's post
was that even if he were willing to build it with newsgroup help, I still
don't see how that's in line with saving a ton of cash.

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:00:58 -0500, "jeffc"
wrote:


wrote in message

Oh, and never ever buy a Celeron! They're so horribly slow, - it's
outright fraud.

Ridiculous. They perform relative to their price. For example, buying a
computer from Dell, a Celeron version CPU costs $100 less than the
regular
version CPU. That's less than half the price at about 75% of the
performance.

Like the 2.6GHz Celeron at $90 against the 2.6GHz P4C at $163 ?
"about 75% of the performance"? - Is that what you imagine?
- Who's being ridiculous here?

First, I don't "imagine" it, I read the performance reports. Post some
sites that show how far off I am. Second, we're talking about Dell, and
Dell doesn't sell CPUs. Dell sells computers. And from Dell the Celeron is
$100 less than the P4, not $73 less.

wrote in message
...

Easy! Of course you build it! It's lots of fun, and you get exactly
the components you wan't.

Two advantages that he specifically didn't mention, and leaving out the
one
thing he wanted.

True, but intentional, since he probably won't save money on a whole
single system, which we both know. It is however, much cheaper to own
and live with computers, in the long run, if you're a builder.

That might or might not be. For all the talk about how important it is to
be able to swap components, it really doesn't happen that much. Sure,
people add memory and change video cards, but when people want a new CPU,
they always end up getting a new motherboard and memory too. That's because
they don't upgrade every month (it's too expensive and inefficient
time-wise). They upgrade every year or 2, and by that time a whole new wave
of technology has come along. Your argument is valid, but in practice a lot
weaker than most people will admit.

Support for "individual components" means nothing to someone whose
computer
won't boot, or crashes all the time. Try calling your hard drive
manufacturer and see how far you get when you tell him every time you
boot
Windows it crashes. For meaningful support, you buy a full system.
Support
is definitely NOT a reason to put your own computer together.

It definitely is! If you're knowledgable about computers. And he
seemed to be, to me, since he professed to have changed components.
Being able to change the specs of a system is highly desirable. Do
that to some brand name, and the support situation can quickly turn
into a nightmare.

If you're talking about swapping out components later on a Dell, and then
you run into problems, yes you're going to have problems getting support.
And I don't blame them. A Frankenstein system is not what you bought from
them, and they shouldn't have to support it. If you want support for a
system out of the box, you're going to get it. On your homebuilt system, of
course not. Maybe I have the OP wrong - maybe he's willing to take the
plunge. But I certainly don't see any short-term money savings in it, which
is what he seemed to be after.

Listen all this arguing about build or buy depends on wether you want the
cheapest computer you can get or the best computer for the money.

1. A system builder pretty much cannot beat a bottom of the barrel system.
No matter how much you want to you will spend upwards of 600 dollars on
building a system & generally closer to 1000. (Unless you have some unusual
connection) However this system is much better than the 1000 system that you
could get from a large company. And the more you are willing to spend the
greater the return. Ex. my dual Xeon system w/ 1gb ram & 500mb raid array
would cost over $6,500 from dell (I specked it). I built it for about $2500
all with info from the links I provided.

2. Tech support is NOT FREE outside the US. because 1-800 numbers don't
work. Don't know about you but last time I called for tech support I was on
the phone for about 20- 30 min & that adds up in long distance charges.

3. Sorry to break your heart but the average person cannot expect to "Game"
with a $400 dollar machine call Dell they'll recommend a system in the
neighborhood of $1000 and quite likely closer to $2000.

4. Lets face facts. If he can swap out parts he likely has an OS from
Microsoft that he legally owns that he can install on the new machine as
whatever he is going to be replacing will probably be tossed into the
garbage or at least a corner.

And finally 5. People who post to these forums asking if they should Build a
system are generally looking for people to say it isn't that hard if you
think it through. That being said spending a day on the computer looking at
specs & dream systems is not enough to build your own PC. But if someone
lurks in forums, checks out http://www.tomshardware.com/ &
http://www.anandtech.com and other sites for a couple months researching how
to build a system they should not have a problem assembling there own rigs.

X my best advice is to go with parts just shy of cutting edge, they are the
best value.
And buy NAME-BRAND components for your FIRST venture. They may be a couple
dollars more but the odds of some small Taiwanese companies floppy disk
giving you problems is smaller than Sony's.
& if you run into problems post again here. Look how many responses you got
on 1 simple question.
~Eric
"x" wrote in message
...
Am transferred out of USA and want to take a reliable comp to download and
watch movies, game, and email with a bit of work on the side using word
and
excel.

So, do I buy a Dell/Gateway/ etc or, following the advice I culled from
weeks of lurking, buy stuff from newegg and assemble at home, thereby
saving
tons of scarce cash.

I am not an experienced builder, but have been swapping out parts for
years.

Your thoughts please?

on Sat January 31 2004 5:26 am, EWhite decided to enlighten us with:

Listen all this arguing about build or buy depends on wether you want the
cheapest computer you can get or the best computer for the money.

1. A system builder pretty much cannot beat a bottom of the barrel system.
No matter how much you want to you will spend upwards of 600 dollars on
building a system & generally closer to 1000. (Unless you have some
unusual connection) However this system is much better than the 1000
system that you could get from a large company. And the more you are
willing to spend the greater the return. Ex. my dual Xeon system w/ 1gb
ram & 500mb raid array would cost over $6,500 from dell (I specked it). I
built it for about $2500 all with info from the links I provided.

Around Christmas, many retail outlets run "6 hour" sales etc., usually the
day following Thanksgiving. They offered insane deals this year. My brother
and my best friend, Steve, bought an ATi 9600 card for $59, a LiteOn 52X
CD-R/RW for $20, 160GB HD for $69, and even a complete eMachines computer
with monitor for $299. You have to send in multiple rebates to get these
prices, but they're legit.

The downside to building this way is that you must make concessions. You
must use the parts that you can get your hands on. For instance, if you get
a Pacific Digital CD burner, which brands like that usually use a
generation old drive from someone else like Sony, you won't have that
Plextor you've been dying to get. The HDD's offered at that price weren't
SATA and you may even be forced to get drives that don't match your case.
If you're willing to make these compromises, you can build a really nice
system for cheap.

Not everything was purchased at such a bargain. My brother opted for SATA
RAID with (2) 80GB drives and got an Asus P4P800 Deluxe mobo with a P4 3.0C
cpu and some nice Corsair memory. Still, he built a system that nice for
$900. The best things about building for both my brother and Steve was that
they got awesome systems for what they paid, they know everything that went
into the machine, they can, and have, overclock their machines (can't do
that on a Dell, Gateway, HP, Compaq, or any other proprietary system), and
they learned how to build a machine (after I helped them).

2. Tech support is NOT FREE outside the US. because 1-800 numbers don't
work. Don't know about you but last time I called for tech support I was
on the phone for about 20- 30 min & that adds up in long distance charges.

Have second computer handy and get on the internet.

3. Sorry to break your heart but the average person cannot expect to
"Game" with a $400 dollar machine call Dell they'll recommend a system in
the neighborhood of $1000 and quite likely closer to $2000.

Absolutely. $400 will get you little. Even the systems they built couldn't
be serious gaming machines, as the graphics card was a concession. At least
a 9600 Pro card would make it a better game machine. My older 2.6A P4 with
non dual-channel memory, but a GeForce Ti4600 card smokes their 3D
framerates.

4. Lets face facts. If he can swap out parts he likely has an OS from
Microsoft that he legally owns that he can install on the new machine as
whatever he is going to be replacing will probably be tossed into the
garbage or at least a corner.

And finally 5. People who post to these forums asking if they should Build
a system are generally looking for people to say it isn't that hard if you
think it through. That being said spending a day on the computer looking
at specs & dream systems is not enough to build your own PC. But if
someone lurks in forums, checks out http://www.tomshardware.com/ &
http://www.anandtech.com and other sites for a couple months researching
how to build a system they should not have a problem assembling there own
rigs.

X my best advice is to go with parts just shy of cutting edge, they are
the best value.
And buy NAME-BRAND components for your FIRST venture. They may be a
couple dollars more but the odds of some small Taiwanese companies floppy
disk giving you problems is smaller than Sony's.
& if you run into problems post again here. Look how many responses you
got on 1 simple question.

This is excellent advice. Is building hard? No. However, many times you'll
run into a major snag and you'll have to sort it out. I've ran into a major
snag on 2 of the 3 machines I've built. However, through percerverance, I
got it all straightened out and everything is fine. You must be wiling to
put up with this. Also, it takes time to build. The roughest thing, IMO, is
putting all those wires on for the front panel connectors for the HDD
lights, power switch, USB, 1394, etc. They are a PITA.

I researched for 2 months, looking everywhere for reviews. Then, when I
found what I thought I wanted, I went to the newsgroup for that particular
item and saw what everyone was crying about. I originally sought to build
an AMD system for my first build, using an Abit KR7A board. However, people
had lots of problems with sound cards conflictin with the chipset, couldn't
use all 4 slots for memory at the same time, and more. I opted to go for a
P4 system using, what was then, a state-of-the art 845D based board from
Gigabyte, the GA-8IRXP instead. I followed that board in the Gigabyte
newsgroup and found people were having manual overvolt reboot problems.
That was the only problem I found they were having in any numbers. Yes,
some people have problems getting some parts working, but I mean genuine
problems with the boards themselves. I bought the board thinking that
they'd get this sorted out in a BIOS upgrade and I wouldn't OC the board
until then. It took a long time, but they eventually fixed it, but not
without limiting the overvoltage option from the previous 1.85 volts to
1.75 volts. Overall, I think I made a very wise decision. Research pays
off.

I've witnessed many people who built using sub-par boards from companies
like PC Chips have way too many problems for my tastes. It pays to buy from
someone that has a good reputation like Asus, MSI, Gigabyte, Epox, Soyo,
DFI, Chaintech, Abit, and others.



--
Big Daddy Ruel Smith

My SuSE Linux machine uptime:
8:51am up 4 days 23:26, 2 users, load average: 0.04, 0.09, 0.06

My Windows XP machine uptime:
Something less...

I built a barebones system about 13 months ago. ecs k7s5a athlon xp1700
40g etc. It's cost me way more than I expected: probably about $700
now, I'd guess. There's always another part you need, more memory, a
scanner, more software, a joystick.
I got a monitor free: my neighbor got me one they were discarding after
an upgrade where he worked. That dumpster diving can work too: in the
last year I've seen 3 systems next to the garbage cans near me, as I
walk my dog.

Two aspects that have not been discussed yet:

-I decided to build after a local shop guy said he could assemble a
machine in 1-2 hours. I though, "I can do that." But the 2 hours did not
include learning:
Like people have said, a novice will probably spend a LOT of time
researching before he builds. I've got a good job that pays way over $20
an hour. For the value of the time I spent I probably could have bought
a $2000 system. OTOH, it became a hobby, and building teaches you a lot
about computers.
At any rate, everyone's time has a value.

-Didn't the OP say he was going overseas? I'm not sure I want to lug ANY
computer that far.

Pete

"jeffc" wrote in message ...
"tweak" wrote in message
...
Mobo's for around 50-70 bucks(MSI socket A's or P3/P4)
My current system cost me about 400 bucks total.
Compaq 7110 cpu(socket a with 1.2 gig cpu and 1gig ram.)
80 gig ata 133 HD with controller.
cd burner and dvd player.
Monitor- sony 17 inch vio with built in stereo and sub channel- 50
bucks clearance price.
I just added a dvd burner for 110 bucks.(Liteon 411S at a clearance
price.)

And I see there's no operating system there, as I already mentioned.

Dude! Don't tell me you actually PAY for an OS!

No, I think you and most of the rest of the people in this thread are
missing the point. The point is what the OP wants, given his priorities.
This is an enthusiast newsgroup. Our priorities are normally going to be
different than the OP's. So based on the question that was asked, rather
than the question you really want to answer, what is your advice? Does this
person sound like someone who wants to install Linux? Does this person
sound like someone who is willing to spend time and/or money to figure out
what to do to get a built-from-scratch system working? Does this person
sound like someone who won't be using Windows? Does this person sound like
someone who is willing to spend a little more to get the exact components
he's searching for?

I think we need to ask the OP. Everyone is going answer the above in
different ways.

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 12:48:07 -0600 (CST), (P T)
wrote:

I built a barebones system about 13 months ago. ecs k7s5a athlon xp1700
40g etc. It's cost me way more than I expected: probably about $700
now, I'd guess. There's always another part you need, more memory, a
scanner, more software, a joystick.
I got a monitor free: my neighbor got me one they were discarding after
an upgrade where he worked. That dumpster diving can work too: in the
last year I've seen 3 systems next to the garbage cans near me, as I
walk my dog.

Two aspects that have not been discussed yet:

-I decided to build after a local shop guy said he could assemble a
machine in 1-2 hours. I though, "I can do that." But the 2 hours did not
include learning:
Like people have said, a novice will probably spend a LOT of time
researching before he builds. I've got a good job that pays way over $20
an hour. For the value of the time I spent I probably could have bought
a $2000 system. OTOH, it became a hobby, and building teaches you a lot
about computers.
At any rate, everyone's time has a value.

True time is money and up to a certain point it becomes wiser to defer
to an expert.
That said one can only benefit from the knowledge gained in learning
"how to".
This knowledge is priceless when the time comes when you have to deal
with "salespersons".
Since I started learning about computers/hardware several years back
I've aqquired enough expertise where most of the sales crews in the
local computer shoppes won't even come near me when I go in for minor
parts.(If they can't screw you on a complete "system" deal they don't
want to waste the time.)
That's OK, I buy all my hardware from online sources or get it for
free. (Dumpsters are indeed a rich source of parts etc...)


-Didn't the OP say he was going overseas? I'm not sure I want to lug ANY
computer that far.

Traveling? If you have to have a tower system rather than a
laptop.(Cost is usually the biggest factor.) then build small.
I have a tiny IBM vetra mini tower that packs a big punch performance
wise. I use it on site for video work(Capturing directly to the
hardrive for both stills and video.) as well as a controller for sound
system and lights.
I bolted me a handle on the top of the tower and made a rubberized
shock base for the bottom and sides. I even made a small carry case
for it.
I use a small lcd monitor that someone gave me and a small fold up
keyboard with a trackball mouse. It all fits in the carry case along
with the cables.
Certainly not as light as laptop but a workable solution for travel.


Pete