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Little warning: USB is broken: USB 2.0/3.0 doesn't work on USB 1.0



 
 
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  #11  
Old January 8th 20, 04:30 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Paul[_28_]
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Posts: 1,467
Default Little warning: USB is broken: USB 2.0/3.0 doesn't work on USB1.0

wrote:
On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 9:14:12 AM UTC+1, Paul wrote:
wrote:
Sigh,

As far as I know nobody made a video about how usb 2.0/3.0 external harddisks and usb sticks can't work on usb 1.0.

The manufacturers kinda implicitely/indirectly mention this but not mentioning usb 1.0 backwards compatibility.

So basically this means the USB STANDARD IS BROKEN and therefore it sucks ballz.

This video shows the mentioning on the packages and websites:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_2xH--E_o0

It also explores wikipedia, there is very little information about WHY it's not backward compatible.

What is even worse about this is:

The usb 2.0 and usb 3.0 plugs will fit in a usb 1.0 port. Making people believe that maybe it will work on computers and windows xp.

I tried this yesterday and windows xp did detect the drive a little bit, but for some reason couldn't read or write or make it show up in windows explorer.

So now I am not sure what is going on.

Is it a windows xp limitation ? Is it a driver issue ? Like many peope might believe, they will start messing around, but what if it can never work ?!?!?!

It wastes their time... and therefore manufacturers and the usb "comitee" that made this standard should be somewhat ashamed of themselfes !

This problem can still be corrected by being HONEST about it and TELLING people STRAIGHT to their FACES why it won't work.

Perhaps these ****ers don't even know WHY it won't work ?! WHAT THE **** MAN ?!.

So let this be a HEADS up in case you think you can use these devices on old computers.

Only if they are not that old and have usb 2.0.... but usb 1.0 computers ?!?!?!?

Not according to them ?! good luck figuring out which usb ports your computer supports ?!

If somebody still knows a hack how to get this working on usb 1.0 ports I still be interested ! =D

Maybe they just disabled it because it might be slow, big mistake...

Slow drives can still be usefull for getting data off of old machines.

Beats unsafe internet connections !

Now you know, somewhat, and knowing somewhat, is HALF the battle G.I. JOEEE ! =D

Bye,
Skybuck.

I got this working by the way.

P4 1.8GHz 845 Northbridge ICH2 Southbridge
2 USB 1.1 ports
512MB RAM

I booted it with BionicPup 32-bit.

http://puppylinux.com/index.html#download

http://distro.ibiblio.org/puppylinux...2-8.0-uefi.iso

I plugged in the USB3 Sandisk Flash, and the
file systems on it mounted.

If I'd used Win98, then without some help, it
wouldn't have worked. I'd need the
Maximus Decim NUSB drivers for USB Mass Storage
class to work. And Maximus doesn't work with
all chipsets either.

You just need the right OS to encourage it to work.
Or have the driver disc from way back when. One
or the other.

The USB3 stick has USB3 pins and USB2 pins.
The USB2 pins contact the USB1.1 jack and
the USB2 pins are the ones that are backward
compatible with USB1.1.

Eventually there will be USB versions that
don't work with USB1.1. I don't own anything
(yet) that doesn't work.

Paul


OK Paul, thanks for trying this out !

I have never heard of puppy linux so this is new ?!


Puppy has been around for a while.

It's a set of distros for low-end machines, and old machines.
It typically uses a 2.6.x kernel or so, and the drivers
are centered around old hardware.

If you run Puppy on a really new machine, there's a good chance
it can't probe any of the hardware, as it isn't set up for that.

The BionicPup uses around 70MB of RAM to draw the desktop,
but the LiveCD also copies the entire CD into RAM (260MB).
And, it uses RAM for the home directory. On my 512MB machine,
I was getting close to being out of memory, because of the
files it was storing.

But if you set up the persistence/Save stuff it wants, it's
less likely to run out of resources on you.

I only used that, so I'd have something to run a USB port with.
Because Win98 out of the box, doesn't do a lot of USB.


I have two questions for you:

How the hell are file systems/sectors/clusters transferred over USB ?!
I am still mystified even after reading usb 3.1 specification.


The size of the quanta USB uses for some things, is very small.

I don't really know what the packet size is for sectors of storage devices.
Whether it chooses to send whole sectors, or chops the sectors up into
multiple packets.

USB2 was polled and centered around a time constant of 125us. This
is a "telecom number". 8KHz was a part of speech processing, and
TDM (time division multiplexing). USB2 uses "slots" for constant bitrate
services. And for things that expect "regular delivery" of stuff.

USB3, I don't think it's tied down like that. For one thing, it isn't
polled any more. It's more like it is Interrupt based. It's probably
more like SATA or PCI Express, than it is like USB2.


Maybe it's scsi protocol on top of it, or something microsoft specific ?
You know anything about that ?!


SCSI CDBs (Control and Data Blocks) is the Microsoft method for
anything "foreign".

If there isn't a "native" stack for something, you
instead set your stuff up so it attaches to the SCSI thing instead.

And typical drivers, a few years back, the driver would "install twice".
There were two items in the stack, and one item (typically a "null" item),
interfaces to the SCSI part and received the CDBs. And the other driver
chunk, interfaced to the registers on the foreign hardware. It's
something like that. It's been years since I've had to look at that.


Second question:

How the hell do I mount a VHD in Linux ?! =D

I know Linux does things differently with scripts and automation and downloading software but I kinda like VHD/containers-like-approach for my own data and portability.

I don't get why Linux doesn't seem to support virtual harddisks out of the box, feels very weird and alien to me.

Bye,
Skybuck =D


There is a "not very ripe" solution mentioned here.

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/...-file-in-linux

VHDs come in: Dynamic
Fixed
Differencing Disks

Dynamic means, if a sector contains only 0x00 bytes, no storage space
is used to hold them. This makes dynamic disks "small", when not a
lot of user data is on the disk. It's a "preferred" format in a sense,
because you don't need a lot of space to hold them.

But the problem is, you can't use any Linux tools directly on a
dynamic disk, because "it's full of holes".

Now, if you use a converter, and convert Dynamic to Fixed, the
file becomes "full sized". A 127GB disk image now takes... 127GB
of storage space. No matter whether it's got one file or
ten thousand files in it. "Fixed" VHDs are not very efficient.

But, on the positive side, every sector that exists on a physical
disk, would be represented on a Fixed virtual disk.

You can use "-o loop" and do a loopback mount on /dev/sda1
inside the Fixed VHD if you want. All that you need is
the offset. The file system header (the first sector), has
the size information, so the file system mounter knows what
to do. You must specify the offset value. With a hex editor,
you step out to that offset value, and verify that "NTFS"
or whatever string the file system uses, is present, as proof
you're pointed at the correct sector.

----- like a real disk ----
+------------+-----+-----------------------+
| VHD header | MBR | /dev/sda1 | Fixed VHD is "flat" and ready to go
+------------+-----+-----------------------+
^
+----- Need this address, to do "-o loop" mount
"NTFS" string should be in this sector, for example

But it isn't exactly convenient to "expand" a disk like that.
If the disk was large, you could spend half the day doing
something like this. Whereas the StackOverflow method is a
more intelligent method - even if the software isn't finished.

*******

You can see the release number listed here, is 1.40. Softwares
get numbers greater than 0.99, when they're "release quality",
so maybe the current version works better or something. Anything
is possible with free software. And you exist in the ecosystem,
to test this stuff and raise bug reports :-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libguestfs

Paul
  #12  
Old January 8th 20, 05:30 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
[email protected]
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Posts: 533
Default Little warning: USB is broken: USB 2.0/3.0 doesn't work on USB 1.0

Maybe it's scsi protocol on top of it, or something microsoft specific ?
You know anything about that ?!


SCSI CDBs (Control and Data Blocks) is the Microsoft method for
anything "foreign".


OK Very nice ! You continue to amaze me with your knowledge or knowledge finding skills ! =D

I did a sniff with wireshark and usbcap and there indeed seems to be some SCSI CDB involved.

And this link learns me mo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCSI_command

In the bottom is a SCSI commands reference manual:

https://www.seagate.com/files/static...100293068j.pdf

Linking to this PDF, first time I tried to download it, somehow an 404 error, but second time it worked.

At page 37 it starts explaining CDB.

At the next page I can already see how this is probably working.

There are 8 bytes for a logical block address.

So apperently this technology is at least 64 bit, and can probably at least achieve 2^64 file sizes, so that's roughly 16 exabyte if I recall correctly, probably a bit larger if multiplied by sector or max block size or whatever the "grain size" is

So this is somewhat re-assuring and amazing, so basically these old systems should be able to "scale up" and use super large harddisks, now and in the future, any device basically that can use USB and SCSI CDB, so that is pretty amazing !

Bye for now,
Skybuck.
  #13  
Old January 8th 20, 05:35 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
[email protected]
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Posts: 533
Default Little warning: USB is broken: USB 2.0/3.0 doesn't work on USB 1.0

Oh now that I take a closer look at that table and read page 43 where logical block address is explained.

The previous tables 2,3,4 and such work as follows:

Horizontally bits
Vertically bytes.

However Table 5 shows the 16 byte command.

Byte 2 to byte 9 being the logical block address.

(9-2)+1 = 8 bytes for addressing, so it's still 64 bit.

If this 16 byt command is supported and probably is in hardware and software, so this is quite cool =D Though this is an assumption for now =D

Bye,
Skybuck =D
  #14  
Old January 8th 20, 05:48 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
[email protected]
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Posts: 533
Default Little warning: USB is broken: USB 2.0/3.0 doesn't work on USB 1.0

I checked in wireshark/sniffer and SCSI is indeed being used and the Logical Block Addresses are indeed 64 bits.

Big SMILE =D thanks to BIG NUMBERS LOL ! =D

Bye,
Skybuck =D
  #15  
Old January 8th 20, 05:50 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
[email protected]
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Posts: 533
Default Little warning: USB is broken: USB 2.0/3.0 doesn't work on USB 1.0

One more thing, there are different wiki's, this one has even more/better story/information, explaining how it works basically:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCSI

Bye,
Skybuck.
  #16  
Old January 8th 20, 06:03 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
[email protected]
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Posts: 533
Default Little warning: USB is broken: USB 2.0/3.0 doesn't work on USB 1.0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libguestfs

I don't think this can work on my DreamPC cpu which is this one (manchester):

http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/K8/AMD...800BVBOX).html

This libguestfs is a KVM module for Linux at least so the wiki says

Then this links states what is needed for KVM:

http://www.linux-kvm.org/page/FAQ#Wh..._to_use_KVM.3F

"
What do I need to use KVM?

You will need an x86 machine running a recent Linux kernel on an Intel processor with VT (virtualization technology) extensions, or an AMD processor with SVM extensions (also called AMD-V). Xen has a complete list of compatible processors. For Intel processors, see also the IntelĀ® Virtualization Technology List.
"

However maybe I mis-interpret this because the next paragraph reads:

"
Are 64-bit processors supported under KVM?

Yes they are supported and will allow you to run 32-bit and 64-bit guests.

See also Can KVM run a 32-bit guest on a 64-bit host? What about PAE? below..
"

However the rest of the page goes on about AMD-V and such.

So little bit confused if it will work,but for now my hunch is probably not, unless there is some software emulation or exception for 64 bit processor, but I don't think this is going to work

And that makes this option useless for me and my older computers

Very maybe toshiba laptop has support for this, icore5 maybe ? Hmmm don't know.

I think this is a bad idea to have a solution that requires specialized instructions and does not support general/generic instructions.

Bye for now,
Skybuck.
  #17  
Old January 9th 20, 04:47 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Paul[_28_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,467
Default Little warning: USB is broken: USB 2.0/3.0 doesn't work on USB1.0

wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libguestfs

I don't think this can work on my DreamPC cpu which is this one (manchester):

http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/K8/AMD...800BVBOX).html

This libguestfs is a KVM module for Linux at least so the wiki says

Then this links states what is needed for KVM:

http://www.linux-kvm.org/page/FAQ#Wh..._to_use_KVM.3F

"
What do I need to use KVM?

You will need an x86 machine running a recent Linux kernel on an Intel processor with VT (virtualization technology) extensions, or an AMD processor with SVM extensions (also called AMD-V). Xen has a complete list of compatible processors. For Intel processors, see also the IntelĀ® Virtualization Technology List.
"

However maybe I mis-interpret this because the next paragraph reads:

"
Are 64-bit processors supported under KVM?

Yes they are supported and will allow you to run 32-bit and 64-bit guests.

See also Can KVM run a 32-bit guest on a 64-bit host? What about PAE? below.
"

However the rest of the page goes on about AMD-V and such.

So little bit confused if it will work,but for now my hunch is probably not, unless there is some software emulation or exception for 64 bit processor, but I don't think this is going to work

And that makes this option useless for me and my older computers

Very maybe toshiba laptop has support for this, icore5 maybe ? Hmmm don't know.

I think this is a bad idea to have a solution that requires specialized instructions and does not support general/generic instructions.

Bye for now,
Skybuck.


That's why we have you as the experimenter.

"libguestfs"

https://media.fromthegrapevine.com/a...crop-scale.jpg

Paul
 




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