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#82
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The true cost of printing ink ?
"Red Fox" wrote in
: But you knew they were dinky when you bought your printer didn't you? I didn't see the cartridge before I bought the printer and I did not mind a dinky cartridge - it's the high cost for that cartridge that bugged me. You should have also researched the cost of replacement ink cartridges when you bought the printer, and realised that the larger the ink-tak, the better the value, as is the head-in-printer systems. |
#83
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Ray.....Please share your experience with aftermarket ink.
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#84
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Ray.....Please share your experience with aftermarket ink.
Ron Baird wrote: Yes, I 'hear' but the paragraph below your reference seems to indicate otherwise? The Canon factory representative told me never to use Kodak paper in their machine because I would get substandard result. They also told me that if I choose not to use Canon paper I would get great results with Epson paper. Epson is their main competitor, not to mention HP. And the Epson paper has been great. "measekite" <> wrote in message ... Ray wrote: On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 00:13:52 -0000, wrote: I have a Canon IP5000. I have tried a number of aftermarket inks. While the color match is not too bad I have yet to find one that has fade resistance of the Canon product. I refill for my non critical work. Can you tell me of a bulk ink that has fade resistance that is comparable to Canon?- Hide quoted text - Ray, Please tell me your results on which aftermaket ink you actually tried. I want to know how your aftermarket ink result were. I'm specifially looking for comparing OEM ink with aftermarket for PHOTOS only. I know somebody who tried Hobbicolors and they have very easy system with virgin catridges included, excellent price, excellent customer service, however the photos make a person with black hair look like grey hair. I'm looking for another vendor. Right now I'm leaning towards somebody who sells Image Specialist. Stan I do a fair amount of printing and in an effort to keep down printing costs I have tried aftermarket ink. I noticed that photographs that I printed and hung on the wall unprotected started looking pretty bad in a couple of months. I have done the same thing with my Canon IP4000 using OEM ink. My prints, some hanging in a kitchen and others in a bright room show no sign of fading in over 6 months. Being a retired engineer I enjoy testing. I bought G&G, Atlas Copy, MIS, and Inktec ink. The control were BCI6 and CLI8 ink from Canon. I printed color stripes at 25, 50, 75, and 100% saturation of cyan, magenta, yellow and black on Epson, Canon, Costco, and Kodak paper. Gray scale provides a quick check for color match. Since below 80% gray is printed with color ink, the closer it is to gray the better the match. The printed samples were exposed to a 5 watt UV lamp for up to 4 hours with half of each sample exposed. The other half was protected. The worst samples were almost colorless after 4 hours. I then compared the samples to check relative fading. The Canon CLI8 ink was less than twice as fade resistant as compared to the BCI6. The next best performer was MIS which faded about 20 times faster than the CLI8 ink. Why do many know it alls deny these facts. The other inks faded somewhat worse, with different colors fading most. MIS had the best color match, G&G was pretty bad on the cyan. Except for the Kodak paper which did poorly Here that Ron there was not too much difference in the paper. I rated them Canon worst, Costco next, and Epson Premium Glossy the best. So my solution is one printer for throw away's which I refill with MIS ink, and one printer with CLI8 ink for photos. That makes sense. Use low grade ink for stuff you do not care about and the good Canon stuff for photos that are meaningful. As long as the crap ink does not clog your printer. I have prints with the CLI8 ink that have been hung for a year that look as good as recently printed ones and MIS prints of the same vintage that look truly horrible because of fading and color shift. Now that is purtie interesting. From my tests and those posted on Nifty Forum I have not seen any aftermarket ink that is any near as fade resistant as the Canon. I would love to be proven wrong. You will not be. Now that forum is made up of relabelers and their followers. I have the samples that I tested and could post them when I come back from my 6 month vacation in Hawaii. I really believe what you are telling us. |
#85
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The true cost of printing ink ? NOW: unbranded product
I can't and wouldn't even if I could for a number of reasons. 1) I
don't use Canon printers, so I don't know their ink suppliers OEM or 3rd party. Also, Canon OEM dye inks were notoriously poor for fading problems for many years. I don't know if those formulations were improved upon. As policy, I have stopped providing any recommendations of 3rd party inks (or OEM for that matter) because many of them are formulated in varying manufacturing plants, and I have seen enough cases of color variance and other characteristics from OEM and 3rd party inks made in different locales that I no longer feel comfortable suggesting brands. My approach is to suggest that buyers of any ink should ask the vendor if it is warranted against clogging, color variation and fading in writing. Buy inks from companies who have a reputation to defend and who can be harmed by bad publicity due to bad customer service and/or ink performance. Art Ray wrote: On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 10:16:58 GMT, Arthur Entlich wrote: I'm a great believer in empirical results and personal experience, and I think we are in basic agreement when it comes to inks. I will say that there are certainly classes of inks which can vary significantly in performance. Dye inks aren't pigment inks and their characteristics do show up in matters such as fade resistance, how they penetrate papers surfaces, if they are waterproof, etc. Some manufacturers "reverse engineer" inks well, and some are less capable or willing. I have seen several ink sets recalled for one color failing (in both OEM and 3rd party), so it isn't always as simple as following an ingredient list and getting the exact replica, even with well accomplished reverse engineering, and there are lawsuits sometimes when OEMs get threatened. It comes down to finding a quality product line at your price point and sticking with it as long as it performs. Art I have a Canon IP5000. I have tried a number of aftermarket inks. While the color match is not too bad I have yet to find one that has fade resistance of the Canon product. I refill for my non critical work. Can you tell me of a bulk ink that has fade resistance that is comparable to Canon? |
#86
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The true cost of printing ink ? NOW: no-name brands
Just to be pedantic, I'm joking about the pomegranate being grown in
Canada, however, I'm not about the other product. From some web site: POMEGRANATE Punica granatum L. Punicaceae Common Names: Pomegranate, Granada (Spanish), Grenade (French). Related Species: Punica proto-punica. Origin: The pomegranate is native from Iran to the Himalayas in northern India and was cultivated and naturalized over the whole Mediterranean region since ancient times. It is widely cultivated throughout India and the drier parts of southeast Asia, Malaya, the East Indies and tropical Africa. The tree was introduced into California by Spanish settlers in 1769. In this country it is grown for its fruits mainly in the drier parts of California and Arizona. So, it grows closer to you than I ;-) Art Burt wrote: Art - Grenadine syrup is a product well known to any pub crawler, but I didn't know that there was a pomegranate soda pop. Glad to see that Canada is stepping up to the need to provide happy herbs to our North American continent. "Arthur Entlich" wrote in message news:m9jri.17320$fJ5.8277@pd7urf1no... Why, of course, didn't you know Pomegranate was Canada's number one agricultural crop after pot? ;-) Back in the good old days it was called grenadine. Art Burt wrote: Art - this must be a Canadian product. I haven't seen it in SF. "Arthur Entlich" wrote in message news:_%Vqi.13434$_d2.2410@pd7urf3no... LOL. My wife just picked up this soda pop yesterday for the first time (ours is the one with real sugar) but it does indeed look like magenta ink!) Art Burt wrote: "Taliesyn" wrote in message ... (snip) Same with soft drinks - it's all in your head that "Things go better with Coke" or Pepsi - at twice the price! The 85 cent (or less!) store brands are every bit as good. My favorite right now is President's Choice Pomegranate (diet). AKA magenta Burt -Taliesyn . . . getting hungry, gotta go - NOW! |
#87
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The true cost of printing ink ? NOW: unbranded product
The fade resistant ink components are more costly. In fact, the
colorants are the most costly part of the ink, although they don't use a lot (the colors are highly concentrated). It wouldn't cost a great deal extra in the big picture to add a more stable colorant to the inks, but if you are buying low end inks, every penny saved increases profits and since it isn't obvious right away that an ink will fade, it isn't given a lot of consideration. Many of the older inks, even OEM weren't very stable. Art Ray wrote: On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 18:14:13 GMT, "Burt" wrote: I have a Canon IP5000. I have tried a number of aftermarket inks. While the color match is not too bad I have yet to find one that has fade resistance of the Canon product. I refill for my non critical work. Can you tell me of a bulk ink that has fade resistance that is comparable to Canon? Sign onto the Nifty-stuff forum and look up the fade tests by Grandad35. These were accelerated fade tests done with continuous exposure to UV light. None of the ink sets were as resistant to fading as Canon OEM inks. Each ink set had a particular color that began to fade before the others. Interesting results and worth the read. Thank you. Yes it is interesting. It looks like aftermarket ink is fine for throw away's, but not for anything I want to keep. I wonder why aftermarket ink manufactures can't make ink that is fade resistant? It does not seem like rocket science. |
#88
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Ray.....Please share your experience with aftermarket ink.
I respect your diligence toward finding some answers about the 3rd party
inks, which unfortunately do not often get proper testing done. I think you answer "some" of the questions, partly. The main problem I see with your testing design, beyond that it only tests for UV lighting and there are many environmental influences, is the use of a UV lamp. Is it a "black light" or an unfiltered white light with high UV content (like a sunlamp). Which frequency of UV does it contain? UV is a pretty wide spectrum, which is why they can be referred to as long wave and short wave UV. The other problem is that there is a point that accelerated aging goes too far, and cannot accurately represent real world conditions. For instance, exposing a print to 25% humidity for years is way different than submerging the print in water for a minute. Exposing a print to 50 degrees F for 10 years isn't the same as exposing it to 500 degrees for a year. (Most paper ignites at about 450 degrees F). On a relative basis there may be something to be gleaned from your test, but I think we need to be careful. Art Ray wrote: On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 00:13:52 -0000, wrote: I have a Canon IP5000. I have tried a number of aftermarket inks. While the color match is not too bad I have yet to find one that has fade resistance of the Canon product. I refill for my non critical work. Can you tell me of a bulk ink that has fade resistance that is comparable to Canon?- Hide quoted text - Ray, Please tell me your results on which aftermaket ink you actually tried. I want to know how your aftermarket ink result were. I'm specifially looking for comparing OEM ink with aftermarket for PHOTOS only. I know somebody who tried Hobbicolors and they have very easy system with virgin catridges included, excellent price, excellent customer service, however the photos make a person with black hair look like grey hair. I'm looking for another vendor. Right now I'm leaning towards somebody who sells Image Specialist. Stan I do a fair amount of printing and in an effort to keep down printing costs I have tried aftermarket ink. I noticed that photographs that I printed and hung on the wall unprotected started looking pretty bad in a couple of months. Being a retired engineer I enjoy testing. I bought G&G, Atlas Copy, MIS, and Inktec ink. The control were BCI6 and CLI8 ink from Canon. I printed color stripes at 25, 50, 75, and 100% saturation of cyan, magenta, yellow and black on Epson, Canon, Costco, and Kodak paper. Gray scale provides a quick check for color match. Since below 80% gray is printed with color ink, the closer it is to gray the better the match. The printed samples were exposed to a 5 watt UV lamp for up to 4 hours with half of each sample exposed. The other half was protected. The worst samples were almost colorless after 4 hours. I then compared the samples to check relative fading. The Canon CLI8 ink was less than twice as fade resistant as compared to the BCI6. The next best performer was MIS which faded about 20 times faster than the CLI8 ink. The other inks faded somewhat worse, with different colors fading most. MIS had the best color match, G&G was pretty bad on the cyan. Except for the Kodak paper which did poorly there was not too much difference in the paper. I rated them Canon worst, Costco next, and Epson Premium Glossy the best. So my solution is one printer for throw away's which I refill with MIS ink, and one printer with CLI8 ink for photos. I have prints with the CLI8 ink that have been hung for a year that look as good as recently printed ones and MIS prints of the same vintage that look truly horrible because of fading and color shift. From my tests and those posted on Nifty Forum I have not seen any aftermarket ink that is any near as fade resistant as the Canon. I would love to be proven wrong. I have the samples that I tested and could post them when I come back from my 6 month vacation in Hawaii. |
#89
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Ray.....Please share your experience with aftermarket ink.
Arthur Entlich wrote:
The other problem is that there is a point that accelerated aging goes too far, and cannot accurately represent real world conditions. For instance, exposing a print to 25% humidity for years is way different than submerging the print in water for a minute. Exposing a print to 50 degrees F for 10 years isn't the same as exposing it to 500 degrees for a year. (Most paper ignites at about 450 degrees F). On a relative basis there may be something to be gleaned from your test, but I think we need to be careful. As long as you look at his results in a comparative way, everything should be OK - it just tells which ink will last (it doesn't say for how many years). I was a bit surprised when I saw such big differences between inks. -- Jerry1111 |
#90
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Ray.....Please share your experience with aftermarket ink.
I agree that any form of accelerated life testing is not totally
accurate. But I feel mine has some validity since I got very good correlation between my simple limited test with "hang it on the wall and look at in 6 months" test. While all variables were not tested, a product that does poorly in UV and has superior performance in all other variables will still be unacceptable. From what I have read light exposure is probably the dominate, real world, failure mode. My UV source is a 5 watt broad spectrum lamp. It produces some ozone as a by product, so the test is a UV / ozone test. While I agree that humidity vs. running water is not totally valid I did put a sample under hot (140 degree) running water for a minute. Most of the papers are micropourous and did well. Kodak paper is a polymer? paper and the ink tended to run off. There was more variability in paper than in on the water torture test. Still my quest is to find an aftermarket ink whose performance in the "hang it on the wall test" comes even close to the Canon Chromalife 100. I do the limited accelerated life testing so I don't have to wait a year so see the results. With my UV lamp 1 hour equals about 6 months of wall test. Your constructive criticism is welcomed. On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 06:20:39 GMT, Arthur Entlich wrote: I respect your diligence toward finding some answers about the 3rd party inks, which unfortunately do not often get proper testing done. I think you answer "some" of the questions, partly. The main problem I see with your testing design, beyond that it only tests for UV lighting and there are many environmental influences, is the use of a UV lamp. Is it a "black light" or an unfiltered white light with high UV content (like a sunlamp). Which frequency of UV does it contain? UV is a pretty wide spectrum, which is why they can be referred to as long wave and short wave UV. The other problem is that there is a point that accelerated aging goes too far, and cannot accurately represent real world conditions. For instance, exposing a print to 25% humidity for years is way different than submerging the print in water for a minute. Exposing a print to 50 degrees F for 10 years isn't the same as exposing it to 500 degrees for a year. (Most paper ignites at about 450 degrees F). On a relative basis there may be something to be gleaned from your test, but I think we need to be careful. Art Ray wrote: On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 00:13:52 -0000, wrote: I have a Canon IP5000. I have tried a number of aftermarket inks. While the color match is not too bad I have yet to find one that has fade resistance of the Canon product. I refill for my non critical work. Can you tell me of a bulk ink that has fade resistance that is comparable to Canon?- Hide quoted text - Ray, Please tell me your results on which aftermaket ink you actually tried. I want to know how your aftermarket ink result were. I'm specifially looking for comparing OEM ink with aftermarket for PHOTOS only. I know somebody who tried Hobbicolors and they have very easy system with virgin catridges included, excellent price, excellent customer service, however the photos make a person with black hair look like grey hair. I'm looking for another vendor. Right now I'm leaning towards somebody who sells Image Specialist. Stan I do a fair amount of printing and in an effort to keep down printing costs I have tried aftermarket ink. I noticed that photographs that I printed and hung on the wall unprotected started looking pretty bad in a couple of months. Being a retired engineer I enjoy testing. I bought G&G, Atlas Copy, MIS, and Inktec ink. The control were BCI6 and CLI8 ink from Canon. I printed color stripes at 25, 50, 75, and 100% saturation of cyan, magenta, yellow and black on Epson, Canon, Costco, and Kodak paper. Gray scale provides a quick check for color match. Since below 80% gray is printed with color ink, the closer it is to gray the better the match. The printed samples were exposed to a 5 watt UV lamp for up to 4 hours with half of each sample exposed. The other half was protected. The worst samples were almost colorless after 4 hours. I then compared the samples to check relative fading. The Canon CLI8 ink was less than twice as fade resistant as compared to the BCI6. The next best performer was MIS which faded about 20 times faster than the CLI8 ink. The other inks faded somewhat worse, with different colors fading most. MIS had the best color match, G&G was pretty bad on the cyan. Except for the Kodak paper which did poorly there was not too much difference in the paper. I rated them Canon worst, Costco next, and Epson Premium Glossy the best. So my solution is one printer for throw away's which I refill with MIS ink, and one printer with CLI8 ink for photos. I have prints with the CLI8 ink that have been hung for a year that look as good as recently printed ones and MIS prints of the same vintage that look truly horrible because of fading and color shift. From my tests and those posted on Nifty Forum I have not seen any aftermarket ink that is any near as fade resistant as the Canon. I would love to be proven wrong. I have the samples that I tested and could post them when I come back from my 6 month vacation in Hawaii. |
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