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The true cost of printing ink ?



 
 
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  #81  
Old July 31st 07, 06:28 AM posted to comp.periphs.printers
Frank
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 68
Default Ray.....Please share your experience with aftermarket ink.

measekite wrote:



wrote:



I have a Canon IP5000. I have tried a number of aftermarket inks.
While the color match is not too bad I have yet to find one that has
fade resistance of the Canon product. I refill for my non critical
work. Can you tell me of a bulk ink that has fade resistance that is
comparable to Canon?- Hide quoted text -




Ray,
Please tell me your results on which aftermaket ink you actually
tried. I want to know how your aftermarket ink result were. I'm
specifially looking for comparing OEM ink with aftermarket for PHOTOS
only.

I know somebody who tried Hobbicolors and they have very easy system
with virgin catridges included, excellent price, excellent customer
service, however the photos make a person with black hair look like
grey hair. I'm looking for another vendor. Right now I'm leaning
towards somebody who sells Image Specialist.

Stan



If you want the very best aftermarket ink then look at Pantone. Their
ink may be as close in quality to Canon as there is.






So you think canon is the best ink?
Of course you do. So why don't any...any...of the real professional
photographers use it, huh?
Well measher****head...you stupid moron...care to answer that question?
Frank
  #82  
Old July 31st 07, 01:42 PM posted to comp.periphs.printers
Gary Tait
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 127
Default The true cost of printing ink ?

"Red Fox" wrote in
:


But you knew they were dinky when you bought your printer didn't you?


I didn't see the cartridge before I bought the printer and I did not
mind a dinky cartridge - it's the high cost for that cartridge that
bugged me.


You should have also researched the cost of replacement ink cartridges when
you bought the printer, and realised that the larger the ink-tak, the
better the value, as is the head-in-printer systems.
  #83  
Old July 31st 07, 08:25 PM posted to comp.periphs.printers
Ron Baird
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 66
Default Ray.....Please share your experience with aftermarket ink.

Yes, I 'hear' but the paragraph below your reference seems to indicate otherwise?
"measekite" wrote in message . net...


Ray wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 00:13:52 -0000, wrote:

I have a Canon IP5000. I have tried a number of aftermarket inks.
While the color match is not too bad I have yet to find one that has
fade resistance of the Canon product. I refill for my non critical
work. Can you tell me of a bulk ink that has fade resistance that is
comparable to Canon?- Hide quoted text -
Ray,
Please tell me your results on which aftermaket ink you actually
tried. I want to know how your aftermarket ink result were. I'm
specifially looking for comparing OEM ink with aftermarket for PHOTOS
only.

I know somebody who tried Hobbicolors and they have very easy system
with virgin catridges included, excellent price, excellent customer
service, however the photos make a person with black hair look like
grey hair. I'm looking for another vendor. Right now I'm leaning
towards somebody who sells Image Specialist.

Stan



I do a fair amount of printing and in an effort to keep down printing
costs I have tried aftermarket ink. I noticed that photographs that I
printed and hung on the wall unprotected started looking pretty bad in
a couple of months.
I have done the same thing with my Canon IP4000 using OEM ink. My prints, some hanging in a kitchen and others in a bright room show no sign of fading in over 6 months.

Being a retired engineer I enjoy testing. I
bought G&G, Atlas Copy, MIS, and Inktec ink. The control were BCI6
and CLI8 ink from Canon. I printed color stripes at 25, 50, 75, and
100% saturation of cyan, magenta, yellow and black on Epson, Canon,
Costco, and Kodak paper. Gray scale provides a quick check for color
match. Since below 80% gray is printed with color ink, the closer it
is to gray the better the match.

The printed samples were exposed to a 5 watt UV lamp for up to 4 hours
with half of each sample exposed. The other half was protected. The
worst samples were almost colorless after 4 hours. I then compared
the samples to check relative fading. The Canon CLI8 ink was less
than twice as fade resistant as compared to the BCI6. The next best


performer was MIS which faded about 20 times faster than the CLI8 ink.
Why do many know it alls deny these facts.

The other inks faded somewhat worse, with different colors fading
most. MIS had the best color match, G&G was pretty bad on the cyan.
Except for the

Kodak paper which did poorly Here that Ron

there was not too much
difference in the paper. I rated them Canon worst, Costco next, and
Epson Premium Glossy the best.

So my solution is one printer for throw away's which I refill with MIS
ink, and one printer with CLI8 ink for photos.
That makes sense. Use low grade ink for stuff you do not care about and the good Canon stuff for photos that are meaningful. As long as the crap ink does not clog your printer.

I have prints with the
CLI8 ink that have been hung for a year that look as good as recently
printed ones and MIS prints of the same vintage that look truly
horrible because of fading and color shift.

Now that is purtie interesting.

From my tests and those posted on Nifty Forum I have not seen any
aftermarket ink that is any near as fade resistant as the Canon. I
would love to be proven wrong.
You will not be. Now that forum is made up of relabelers and their followers.

I have the samples that I tested and could post them when I come back
from my 6 month vacation in Hawaii.

I really believe what you are telling us.

  #84  
Old July 31st 07, 11:48 PM posted to comp.periphs.printers
measekite
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,433
Default Ray.....Please share your experience with aftermarket ink.



Ron Baird wrote:

Yes, I 'hear' but the paragraph below your reference seems to indicate otherwise?


The Canon factory representative told me never to use Kodak paper in their machine because I would get substandard result.  They also told me that if I choose not to use Canon paper I would get great results with Epson paper.  Epson is their main competitor, not to mention HP.  And the Epson paper has been great.


"measekite" <> wrote in message ...



Ray wrote:

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 00:13:52 -0000,
wrote:







I have a Canon IP5000. I have tried a number of aftermarket inks. While the color match is not too bad I have yet to find one that has fade resistance of the Canon product. I refill for my non critical work. Can you tell me of a bulk ink that has fade resistance that is comparable to Canon?- Hide quoted text -



Ray, Please tell me your results on which aftermaket ink you actually tried. I want to know how your aftermarket ink result were. I'm specifially looking for comparing OEM ink with aftermarket for PHOTOS only. I know somebody who tried Hobbicolors and they have very easy system with virgin catridges included, excellent price, excellent customer service, however the photos make a person with black hair look like grey hair. I'm looking for another vendor. Right now I'm leaning towards somebody who sells Image Specialist. Stan



I do a fair amount of printing and in an effort to keep down printing costs I have tried aftermarket ink. I noticed that photographs that I printed and hung on the wall unprotected started looking pretty bad in a couple of months.


I have done the same thing with my Canon IP4000 using OEM ink.  My prints, some hanging in a kitchen and others in a bright room show no sign of fading in over 6 months.


Being a retired engineer I enjoy testing. I bought G&G, Atlas Copy, MIS, and Inktec ink. The control were BCI6 and CLI8 ink from Canon. I printed color stripes at 25, 50, 75, and 100% saturation of cyan, magenta, yellow and black on Epson, Canon, Costco, and Kodak paper. Gray scale provides a quick check for color match. Since below 80% gray is printed with color ink, the closer it is to gray the better the match. The printed samples were exposed to a 5 watt UV lamp for up to 4 hours with half of each sample exposed. The other half was protected. The worst samples were almost colorless after 4 hours. I then compared the samples to check relative fading. The Canon CLI8 ink was less than twice as fade resistant as compared to the BCI6. The next best




performer was MIS which faded about 20 times faster than the CLI8 ink.

Why do many know it alls deny these facts.


The other inks faded somewhat worse, with different colors fading most. MIS had the best color match, G&G was pretty bad on the cyan. Except for the




Kodak paper which did poorly

Here that Ron


there was not too much difference in the paper. I rated them Canon worst, Costco next, and Epson Premium Glossy the best. So my solution is one printer for throw away's which I refill with MIS ink, and one printer with CLI8 ink for photos.


That makes sense.  Use low grade ink for stuff you do not care about and the good Canon stuff for photos that are meaningful.  As long as the crap ink does not clog your printer.


I have prints with the CLI8 ink that have been hung for a year that look as good as recently printed ones and MIS prints of the same vintage that look truly horrible because of fading and color shift.


Now that is purtie interesting.


From my tests and those posted on Nifty Forum I have not seen any aftermarket ink that is any near as fade resistant as the Canon. I would love to be proven wrong.

You will not be.  Now that forum is made up of relabelers and their followers.


I have the samples that I tested and could post them when I come back from my 6 month vacation in Hawaii.


I really believe what you are telling us.
  #85  
Old August 1st 07, 06:17 AM posted to comp.periphs.printers
Arthur Entlich
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,229
Default The true cost of printing ink ? NOW: unbranded product

I can't and wouldn't even if I could for a number of reasons. 1) I
don't use Canon printers, so I don't know their ink suppliers OEM or 3rd
party.

Also, Canon OEM dye inks were notoriously poor for fading problems for
many years. I don't know if those formulations were improved upon.

As policy, I have stopped providing any recommendations of 3rd party
inks (or OEM for that matter) because many of them are formulated in
varying manufacturing plants, and I have seen enough cases of color
variance and other characteristics from OEM and 3rd party inks made in
different locales that I no longer feel comfortable suggesting brands.

My approach is to suggest that buyers of any ink should ask the vendor
if it is warranted against clogging, color variation and fading in
writing. Buy inks from companies who have a reputation to defend and
who can be harmed by bad publicity due to bad customer service and/or
ink performance.

Art

Ray wrote:

On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 10:16:58 GMT, Arthur Entlich
wrote:


I'm a great believer in empirical results and personal experience, and I
think we are in basic agreement when it comes to inks.

I will say that there are certainly classes of inks which can vary
significantly in performance. Dye inks aren't pigment inks and their
characteristics do show up in matters such as fade resistance, how they
penetrate papers surfaces, if they are waterproof, etc.

Some manufacturers "reverse engineer" inks well, and some are less
capable or willing. I have seen several ink sets recalled for one color
failing (in both OEM and 3rd party), so it isn't always as simple as
following an ingredient list and getting the exact replica, even with
well accomplished reverse engineering, and there are lawsuits sometimes
when OEMs get threatened.

It comes down to finding a quality product line at your price point and
sticking with it as long as it performs.

Art



I have a Canon IP5000. I have tried a number of aftermarket inks.
While the color match is not too bad I have yet to find one that has
fade resistance of the Canon product. I refill for my non critical
work. Can you tell me of a bulk ink that has fade resistance that is
comparable to Canon?

  #86  
Old August 1st 07, 06:29 AM posted to comp.periphs.printers
Arthur Entlich
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,229
Default The true cost of printing ink ? NOW: no-name brands

Just to be pedantic, I'm joking about the pomegranate being grown in
Canada, however, I'm not about the other product.

From some web site:

POMEGRANATE
Punica granatum L.
Punicaceae
Common Names: Pomegranate, Granada (Spanish), Grenade (French).

Related Species: Punica proto-punica.

Origin: The pomegranate is native from Iran to the Himalayas in northern
India and was cultivated and naturalized over the whole Mediterranean
region since ancient times. It is widely cultivated throughout India and
the drier parts of southeast Asia, Malaya, the East Indies and tropical
Africa. The tree was introduced into California by Spanish settlers in
1769. In this country it is grown for its fruits mainly in the drier
parts of California and Arizona.

So, it grows closer to you than I ;-)

Art


Burt wrote:

Art - Grenadine syrup is a product well known to any pub crawler, but I
didn't know that there was a pomegranate soda pop. Glad to see that Canada
is stepping up to the need to provide happy herbs to our North American
continent.

"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:m9jri.17320$fJ5.8277@pd7urf1no...

Why, of course, didn't you know Pomegranate was Canada's number one
agricultural crop after pot? ;-)


Back in the good old days it was called grenadine.

Art


Burt wrote:


Art - this must be a Canadian product. I haven't seen it in SF.

"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:_%Vqi.13434$_d2.2410@pd7urf3no...


LOL. My wife just picked up this soda pop yesterday for the first time
(ours is the one with real sugar) but it does indeed look like magenta
ink!)

Art

Burt wrote:



"Taliesyn" wrote in message
...
(snip)



Same with soft drinks - it's all in your head that "Things go better
with Coke" or Pepsi - at twice the price! The 85 cent (or less!) store
brands are every bit as good. My favorite right now is President's
Choice Pomegranate (diet).


AKA magenta
Burt




-Taliesyn . . . getting hungry, gotta go - NOW!




  #87  
Old August 1st 07, 06:53 AM posted to comp.periphs.printers
Arthur Entlich
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,229
Default The true cost of printing ink ? NOW: unbranded product

The fade resistant ink components are more costly. In fact, the
colorants are the most costly part of the ink, although they don't use a
lot (the colors are highly concentrated).

It wouldn't cost a great deal extra in the big picture to add a more
stable colorant to the inks, but if you are buying low end inks, every
penny saved increases profits and since it isn't obvious right away that
an ink will fade, it isn't given a lot of consideration.

Many of the older inks, even OEM weren't very stable.

Art

Ray wrote:

On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 18:14:13 GMT, "Burt"
wrote:



I have a Canon IP5000. I have tried a number of aftermarket inks.
While the color match is not too bad I have yet to find one that has
fade resistance of the Canon product. I refill for my non critical
work. Can you tell me of a bulk ink that has fade resistance that is
comparable to Canon?


Sign onto the Nifty-stuff forum and look up the fade tests by Grandad35.
These were accelerated fade tests done with continuous exposure to UV light.
None of the ink sets were as resistant to fading as Canon OEM inks. Each
ink set had a particular color that began to fade before the others.
Interesting results and worth the read.



Thank you. Yes it is interesting. It looks like aftermarket ink is
fine for throw away's, but not for anything I want to keep. I wonder
why aftermarket ink manufactures can't make ink that is fade
resistant? It does not seem like rocket science.

  #88  
Old August 1st 07, 07:20 AM posted to comp.periphs.printers
Arthur Entlich
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,229
Default Ray.....Please share your experience with aftermarket ink.

I respect your diligence toward finding some answers about the 3rd party
inks, which unfortunately do not often get proper testing done. I think
you answer "some" of the questions, partly.

The main problem I see with your testing design, beyond that it only
tests for UV lighting and there are many environmental influences, is
the use of a UV lamp. Is it a "black light" or an unfiltered white light
with high UV content (like a sunlamp). Which frequency of UV does it
contain? UV is a pretty wide spectrum, which is why they can be
referred to as long wave and short wave UV.

The other problem is that there is a point that accelerated aging goes
too far, and cannot accurately represent real world conditions.

For instance, exposing a print to 25% humidity for years is way
different than submerging the print in water for a minute.

Exposing a print to 50 degrees F for 10 years isn't the same as exposing
it to 500 degrees for a year. (Most paper ignites at about 450 degrees F).

On a relative basis there may be something to be gleaned from your test,
but I think we need to be careful.

Art



Ray wrote:

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 00:13:52 -0000, wrote:



I have a Canon IP5000. I have tried a number of aftermarket inks.
While the color match is not too bad I have yet to find one that has
fade resistance of the Canon product. I refill for my non critical
work. Can you tell me of a bulk ink that has fade resistance that is
comparable to Canon?- Hide quoted text -



Ray,
Please tell me your results on which aftermaket ink you actually
tried. I want to know how your aftermarket ink result were. I'm
specifially looking for comparing OEM ink with aftermarket for PHOTOS
only.

I know somebody who tried Hobbicolors and they have very easy system
with virgin catridges included, excellent price, excellent customer
service, however the photos make a person with black hair look like
grey hair. I'm looking for another vendor. Right now I'm leaning
towards somebody who sells Image Specialist.

Stan




I do a fair amount of printing and in an effort to keep down printing
costs I have tried aftermarket ink. I noticed that photographs that I
printed and hung on the wall unprotected started looking pretty bad in
a couple of months. Being a retired engineer I enjoy testing. I
bought G&G, Atlas Copy, MIS, and Inktec ink. The control were BCI6
and CLI8 ink from Canon. I printed color stripes at 25, 50, 75, and
100% saturation of cyan, magenta, yellow and black on Epson, Canon,
Costco, and Kodak paper. Gray scale provides a quick check for color
match. Since below 80% gray is printed with color ink, the closer it
is to gray the better the match.

The printed samples were exposed to a 5 watt UV lamp for up to 4 hours
with half of each sample exposed. The other half was protected. The
worst samples were almost colorless after 4 hours. I then compared
the samples to check relative fading. The Canon CLI8 ink was less
than twice as fade resistant as compared to the BCI6. The next best
performer was MIS which faded about 20 times faster than the CLI8 ink.
The other inks faded somewhat worse, with different colors fading
most. MIS had the best color match, G&G was pretty bad on the cyan.
Except for the Kodak paper which did poorly there was not too much
difference in the paper. I rated them Canon worst, Costco next, and
Epson Premium Glossy the best.

So my solution is one printer for throw away's which I refill with MIS
ink, and one printer with CLI8 ink for photos. I have prints with the
CLI8 ink that have been hung for a year that look as good as recently
printed ones and MIS prints of the same vintage that look truly
horrible because of fading and color shift.

From my tests and those posted on Nifty Forum I have not seen any
aftermarket ink that is any near as fade resistant as the Canon. I
would love to be proven wrong.

I have the samples that I tested and could post them when I come back
from my 6 month vacation in Hawaii.

  #89  
Old August 1st 07, 07:55 AM posted to comp.periphs.printers
Jerry1111
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 37
Default Ray.....Please share your experience with aftermarket ink.

Arthur Entlich wrote:

The other problem is that there is a point that accelerated aging goes
too far, and cannot accurately represent real world conditions.

For instance, exposing a print to 25% humidity for years is way
different than submerging the print in water for a minute.

Exposing a print to 50 degrees F for 10 years isn't the same as exposing
it to 500 degrees for a year. (Most paper ignites at about 450 degrees F).

On a relative basis there may be something to be gleaned from your test,
but I think we need to be careful.


As long as you look at his results in a comparative way, everything
should be OK - it just tells which ink will last (it doesn't say for how
many years). I was a bit surprised when I saw such big differences
between inks.

--
Jerry1111
  #90  
Old August 1st 07, 03:47 PM posted to comp.periphs.printers
Ray
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13
Default Ray.....Please share your experience with aftermarket ink.

I agree that any form of accelerated life testing is not totally
accurate. But I feel mine has some validity since I got very good
correlation between my simple limited test with "hang it on the wall
and look at in 6 months" test. While all variables were not tested, a
product that does poorly in UV and has superior performance in all
other variables will still be unacceptable. From what I have read
light exposure is probably the dominate, real world, failure mode.

My UV source is a 5 watt broad spectrum lamp. It produces some ozone
as a by product, so the test is a UV / ozone test. While I agree that
humidity vs. running water is not totally valid I did put a sample
under hot (140 degree) running water for a minute. Most of the papers
are micropourous and did well. Kodak paper is a polymer? paper and
the ink tended to run off. There was more variability in paper than
in on the water torture test.

Still my quest is to find an aftermarket ink whose performance in the
"hang it on the wall test" comes even close to the Canon Chromalife
100. I do the limited accelerated life testing so I don't have to
wait a year so see the results. With my UV lamp 1 hour equals about 6
months of wall test.

Your constructive criticism is welcomed.

On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 06:20:39 GMT, Arthur Entlich
wrote:

I respect your diligence toward finding some answers about the 3rd party
inks, which unfortunately do not often get proper testing done. I think
you answer "some" of the questions, partly.

The main problem I see with your testing design, beyond that it only
tests for UV lighting and there are many environmental influences, is
the use of a UV lamp. Is it a "black light" or an unfiltered white light
with high UV content (like a sunlamp). Which frequency of UV does it
contain? UV is a pretty wide spectrum, which is why they can be
referred to as long wave and short wave UV.

The other problem is that there is a point that accelerated aging goes
too far, and cannot accurately represent real world conditions.

For instance, exposing a print to 25% humidity for years is way
different than submerging the print in water for a minute.

Exposing a print to 50 degrees F for 10 years isn't the same as exposing
it to 500 degrees for a year. (Most paper ignites at about 450 degrees F).

On a relative basis there may be something to be gleaned from your test,
but I think we need to be careful.

Art



Ray wrote:

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 00:13:52 -0000, wrote:



I have a Canon IP5000. I have tried a number of aftermarket inks.
While the color match is not too bad I have yet to find one that has
fade resistance of the Canon product. I refill for my non critical
work. Can you tell me of a bulk ink that has fade resistance that is
comparable to Canon?- Hide quoted text -


Ray,
Please tell me your results on which aftermaket ink you actually
tried. I want to know how your aftermarket ink result were. I'm
specifially looking for comparing OEM ink with aftermarket for PHOTOS
only.

I know somebody who tried Hobbicolors and they have very easy system
with virgin catridges included, excellent price, excellent customer
service, however the photos make a person with black hair look like
grey hair. I'm looking for another vendor. Right now I'm leaning
towards somebody who sells Image Specialist.

Stan




I do a fair amount of printing and in an effort to keep down printing
costs I have tried aftermarket ink. I noticed that photographs that I
printed and hung on the wall unprotected started looking pretty bad in
a couple of months. Being a retired engineer I enjoy testing. I
bought G&G, Atlas Copy, MIS, and Inktec ink. The control were BCI6
and CLI8 ink from Canon. I printed color stripes at 25, 50, 75, and
100% saturation of cyan, magenta, yellow and black on Epson, Canon,
Costco, and Kodak paper. Gray scale provides a quick check for color
match. Since below 80% gray is printed with color ink, the closer it
is to gray the better the match.

The printed samples were exposed to a 5 watt UV lamp for up to 4 hours
with half of each sample exposed. The other half was protected. The
worst samples were almost colorless after 4 hours. I then compared
the samples to check relative fading. The Canon CLI8 ink was less
than twice as fade resistant as compared to the BCI6. The next best
performer was MIS which faded about 20 times faster than the CLI8 ink.
The other inks faded somewhat worse, with different colors fading
most. MIS had the best color match, G&G was pretty bad on the cyan.
Except for the Kodak paper which did poorly there was not too much
difference in the paper. I rated them Canon worst, Costco next, and
Epson Premium Glossy the best.

So my solution is one printer for throw away's which I refill with MIS
ink, and one printer with CLI8 ink for photos. I have prints with the
CLI8 ink that have been hung for a year that look as good as recently
printed ones and MIS prints of the same vintage that look truly
horrible because of fading and color shift.

From my tests and those posted on Nifty Forum I have not seen any
aftermarket ink that is any near as fade resistant as the Canon. I
would love to be proven wrong.

I have the samples that I tested and could post them when I come back
from my 6 month vacation in Hawaii.

 




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