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#11
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On 21 Jul 2004 13:21:24 -0700, do_not_spam_me wrote:
"Peter Hucker" wrote in message news:opsbhnptolaiowgp@blue... Ok, maybe watercooling the power supply was not a good idea. It certainly kept the power transistors with the big heatsinks cool, but what of the poor little diodes and a transformer, which didn't get the airflow they expected? Been working fine for a few weeks, then suddenly..... about 15 bangs, flashes, sparks etc flew out of it, as though I had lit an entire box of fireworks under the desk. Strangely the PC continued to run while this happened (for about 10 seconds, at which point the PSU gave up and it went off. Fuses all intact! Replaced the PSU, and the PC booted ok! Just one drive of the mirror/stripe appeared to be blank/corrupted, but it's autorebuilding it in the background. http://80.229.155.158/temp/psufail PSUFAIL1.JPG seems to show an LM339, a voltage comparator and not a chip that normally handles high amounts of power. So I believe it failed due to excessive voltage, not heat. That's not to say that the high voltage wasn't caused by excessive heat somewhere else, and the burned capacitor in PSUFAIL3.JPG could indicate that the main transformeer got too hot and saturated, which can cause the current through its coupling capacitor to increase greatly. I'm not sure what PSUFAIL2.JPG is, but it looks like a transformer, and in PSUFAIL4.JPG, it's possible that heavily-burned resistor R7 is either a load resistor (some power supplies won't start without one, and excessive voltage can burn it out) or part of a snubber (filter to eliminate unwanted oscillations -- too much oscillation can burn it out). In the process of testing the water cooling, did you put a temperature probe on each of the power components? This can be risky because of the high voltage, but there are probes with metal exposed only at the tip, or for the more daring a dial thermometer (like a meat thermometer) can be used if it's covered with a few layers of heatshrink tubing. Transformer saturation is a big concern among power supply designers, and heat makes them saturate at lower power levels. I checked the heatsink temperatures with my finger. Didn't think anything else would need it. -- *****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing http://www.petersparrots.com 93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com 1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid An archaeologist is the best husband a woman can have. The older she gets the more interested in her he is. |
#12
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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:32:50 GMT, "rstlne"
wrote: WaterCooling keeps the CPU and what ever else it's connected to cool.. So you dont have 45/50c air feeing the bottom of the heatsink.. Completely untrue. Water cooling keeps ONLY the part under the water block cool. "Almost" every other part of the system (which has heat needing removed) will run hotter because there is the incorrect assumption that water cooling reduces need for aux airflow. Even water cooling a CPU is pointless except very extreme environments or for max o'c. You still need a fan in roughly same area to cool motherboard power regulators. Water cooling CPU will not reduce temp of "what ever else it's connected to" by any significant amount. The only way it could do so would be by reducing heat 'sunk though the CPU pins to the socket, but any other (relatively) temp-sensitive component is far removed from that heat path. For example, you won't find any electrolytic capacitors inside a socket well... not that they'd be needed there, but there are multiple reasons. That means that the PSU shouldnt have required tons of airflow.. It looks to me like the psu just fail'd (short in transformer).. Nope, it is true that PSU might've required "slightly" less airflow but only because it's incoming air was a few degrees cooler, since CPU heat was removed in a path other than drawing that heat(ed air) up though PSU. Lower temp air though PSU means lower volume is needed for same temp drop. |
#13
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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:30:16 GMT, "rstlne"
wrote: "Peter Hucker" wrote in message newspsbhqrth3aiowgp@blue... That's one hell of a failure. I thought I was maybe overloading it, but I'm using 200W peak, and it was a 300W supply. Anyway I've sourced a fanless one for £120.... Yea, I have seen some nice new fanless ones out there in the market.. Tho to be honest I woulda probably been more tempted to just mount a couple of NB coolers on the heatsinks inside the PSU itself (sure it could be done). Nope, there are ZERO nice new fanless ones. The highest quality, best specs and longest lasting PSU are all actively cooled. Effective passive cooling for a modern system will require such large passive 'sinks that it won't come near fitting into a PS/2 size allocation per the PSU casing or system chassis. Best attempt is when huge fins stick out the back of system, but even then there is no chance PSU will last as long unless quite specifically made with different spec and type components inside, which none have been due to greater cost. |
#14
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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:38:08 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
wrote: Yea, I have seen some nice new fanless ones out there in the market.. Tho to be honest I woulda probably been more tempted to just mount a couple of NB coolers on the heatsinks inside the PSU itself (sure it could be done). NB? I DID mount coolers on the heatsinks. But I think more than that needed cooling. Yes, the best solution would've been to simply leave the power supply alone and install a lower flow fan, with rear grill removed, then mod the REST of the system case to provide positive pressurization that forces more air though the power supply. Your conclusion was correct that there's more to cooling a power supply than just keeping the regulators cool. |
#15
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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:25:57 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
wrote: What do you mean no need for extra cooling? I was trying to use no fans! Water cooling does not eliminate the need for fans, only reduces amount of flow needed. Noise of water cooler eclipses that fan flow noise difference to the extent that water cooling does not make a system quieter except if compared to a very poorly implemented air-cooling design. In other words, with same or less time and less expense and risk the air-cooled solution is quieter, more dependable, cheaper, safer. Whole world doesn't use fans on a lark. |
#16
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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:06:24 GMT, kony wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:30:16 GMT, "rstlne" wrote: "Peter Hucker" wrote in message newspsbhqrth3aiowgp@blue... That's one hell of a failure. I thought I was maybe overloading it, but I'm using 200W peak, and it was a 300W supply. Anyway I've sourced a fanless one for £120.... Yea, I have seen some nice new fanless ones out there in the market.. Tho to be honest I woulda probably been more tempted to just mount a couple of NB coolers on the heatsinks inside the PSU itself (sure it could be done). Nope, there are ZERO nice new fanless ones. The highest quality, best specs and longest lasting PSU are all actively cooled. Effective passive cooling for a modern system will require such large passive 'sinks that it won't come near fitting into a PS/2 size allocation per the PSU casing or system chassis. Best attempt is when huge fins stick out the back of system, but even then there is no chance PSU will last as long unless quite specifically made with different spec and type components inside, which none have been due to greater cost. Some I saw said 3 year warranty :-) And the thermaltake (I think) ones have a thing out the back. -- *****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing http://www.petersparrots.com 93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com 1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid If god had meant us to travel economy class, he would have made us narrower. |
#17
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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:10:30 GMT, kony wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:38:08 +0100, "Peter Hucker" wrote: Yea, I have seen some nice new fanless ones out there in the market.. Tho to be honest I woulda probably been more tempted to just mount a couple of NB coolers on the heatsinks inside the PSU itself (sure it could be done). NB? I DID mount coolers on the heatsinks. But I think more than that needed cooling. Yes, the best solution would've been to simply leave the power supply alone and install a lower flow fan, with rear grill removed, then mod the REST of the system case to provide positive pressurization that forces more air though the power supply. Your conclusion was correct that there's more to cooling a power supply than just keeping the regulators cool. The rest of the system does not have fans! And even a low speed one in the PSU would be irritating. -- *****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing http://www.petersparrots.com 93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com 1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid Save the whales. Collect the whole set. |
#18
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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:14:53 GMT, kony wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:25:57 +0100, "Peter Hucker" wrote: What do you mean no need for extra cooling? I was trying to use no fans! Water cooling does not eliminate the need for fans, only reduces amount of flow needed. Noise of water cooler eclipses that fan flow noise difference to the extent that water cooling does not make a system quieter except if compared to a very poorly implemented air-cooling design. In other words, with same or less time and less expense and risk the air-cooled solution is quieter, more dependable, cheaper, safer. Whole world doesn't use fans on a lark. The water cooler is completely silent. And no I don't need fans. The mac cube was designed without fans. -- *****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing http://www.petersparrots.com 93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com 1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid Windows 95: n. 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
#19
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"kony" wrote Nope, there are ZERO nice new fanless ones. Is this nice? http://thermaltake.com/purepower/w00...fanlesspfc.htm And this (not a psu) ? http://thermaltake.com/coolers/cl-p0...fanless103.htm -- Ed Light Smiley :-/ MS Smiley :-\ Send spam to the FTC at Thanks, robots. |
#20
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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:28:32 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
wrote: Your conclusion was correct that there's more to cooling a power supply than just keeping the regulators cool. The rest of the system does not have fans! And even a low speed one in the PSU would be irritating. What is irritating about a fan you can't hear? Comparing water cooling to worst-possible scenarios for fan cooling is pointless, we could as easily compare to worst-case scenarios with water pumps. I did not claim you should use a high RPM fan. Personally, I have no systems here nor that i've sold in past few years that have even a single fan over 3000RPM and usually quite below that. Once exception being video card fans, IF the warranty on the card needs preserved, if that is more important to owner than noise reduction of card then stock cooling solution must be retained. First thing i do on cards I buy for my own use is replace stock fan'sink after confirming card works properly, not defective/DOA. Bottom line is that unless system is very _highly_ overclocked, water cooling is the noiser way to cool a system. Pump creates as much noise as very low RPM fan (like a panaflo or papst), then either giant passive radiator is used or fan is still needed on radiator, plus motherboard power regulation still needs airflow. As incredible as it may seem, with a good 'normal' heatsink you have same need for low RPM fan near that heatsink whether there is a water block on CPU or not. You can operate without fan but temps go up, in a region with a very clear temp vs lifespan degradation (capacitors). |
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