Power Supply

I guess you don't know how to read. I wasn't flaming the enermax

Quote:

The enermax wasn't a bad unit

Unquote

The 600W POS (as you put it) is working fine with a 450+watt load as
calculated from the website you provided. Not bad for 24$


"Philip Callan" wrote in message
news:VyZXb.525591$ts4.337603@pd7tw3no...
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Leadfoot wrote:
| "Darkfalz" wrote in message
|
|Any good brand 300-400 watt should be fine. A good brand 250 watt will
|perform better than a generic 400 watt, so obviously the most important
|thing is to get a reputable brand (AOpen, Antec etc.).
|
|
| Bull****!!!
|
| I just went from an enermax EG-431 (79$ 2-3 years ago) that was
choking when
| I ran 3dmark03 with an 2500xp being run as a 3200xp on an NF-7S to a 25$
| 600W power supply that runs 3dmark03 just fine at 11X200. Looped for 8
| hours straight in test mode. The enermax wasn't a bad unit, its 15
amps on
| the 12v line simply wasn't enough. 24 amps with the Lead Power did the
| trick. having a 9800, 3 7200rpm HD, 2 dvd's and 4 80mm fans with some
other
| misc stuff didn't help.
|
| http://tinyurl.com/2czrp


Hmm, 2-3 years ago with processors and video cards pulling what they do,
no wonder it was adequate (but its still crap compared to a brand name)

First off your EG-431, is probably a lesser quality variant of this one
(the EG451P-VE)

http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.c...eid=409&page=4

Older review (which is very favorable, but compared to todays PSU , and
the new ATX specification, its a DOG)

The important part is he

Operation Temperature

~ 0oC~25oCfor full rating of load,
~ decrease to zero Watts O/P at 70oC

Okay, that particular PSU does not use seperate voltage regulation on
each channel, so a heavy pull on your 12v rail will drag your others
down, and lower their true output you get that?

It will give that 15A on your 12v rail when its at 25 degrees Celsius.
Have you felt 25C ? its COOL, seeing as your body temp is like 37C, when
was (other than in the 15 seconds AFTER a POST) the last time you ever
had COOL air coming from your PSU? Every degree of heat it rises, it
LOSES efficiency, until it finally cant provide any of the rails proper
current, let along all of them.

Then go he

http://www.jscustompcs.com/power_supply/

Fire in your CPU/RAM/HD settings (I didnt know your RAM or extra
peripherals except the FANS, but I came up with 353W as your recommended
PSU.

That 4 year old powersupply, from the Celeron / Pentium 2 era, trying to
power a r9800 and a 2500xp (overclocked even! more draw on the rails)

No wonder you had problems.

The Enermax PSU has 0 problems, other than it was designed for far less
hungry devices and motherboards than todays computers, you putting a PSU
that couldnt realistically provide the current you needed, does not mean
that your POS 600w generic is better than an Enermax.

Philip
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Leadfoot wrote:

| I guess you don't know how to read. I wasn't flaming the enermax
|
| Quote:
|
| The enermax wasn't a bad unit
|
| Unquote
|
| The 600W POS (as you put it) is working fine with a 450+watt load as
| calculated from the website you provided. Not bad for 24$

I guess you suffer the syndrome you accuse me of:

Quote:

| Older review (which is very favorable, but compared to todays PSU , and
| the new ATX specification, its a DOG)

or

| The Enermax PSU has 0 problems, other than it was designed for far less
| hungry devices and motherboards than todays computers, you putting a PSU
| that couldnt realistically provide the current you needed, does not mean
| that your POS 600w generic is better than an Enermax.

I never said you were flaming the enermax, but when "Darkfalz" wrote:

| |Any good brand 300-400 watt should be fine. A good brand 250 watt will
| |perform better than a generic 400 watt, so obviously the most important
| |thing is to get a reputable brand (AOpen, Antec etc.).

You cried "Bull****" and then went on to describe how you took a 3yr old
+ powersupply with an inadequate 12v rail, tried to hook a newer spec
system drying far more load, and had problems, but when switching to
your generic 600w PSU, everything was fine.

Implying that the 600w was better than the Enermaxx

Thats the part I was contesting.

Generic PSU's will not perform better than their Brand counterparts *of
the same Wattage*

Simply because the machine 'runs' is not enough to say that its 'fine'

Consider why Generic PSU's simply add up their maximum load which it
cant realistically sustain for *ANY* period of time, since as soon as
they break 25C they start to degrade in performance, and no longer
output the W advertised, if they ever did. Brand PSU's are starting to
provide seperate voltage regulation for EACH rail (3.3/5v/12v) so that
large draws on any one rail it doesnt destabilize the other rails.

In probably 95% of generic PSU's, the 3.3 and 5v lines are together and
although their voltage 'ripple' may stay within ATX boundaries, its
5/10% are a far cry from the tolerated 3/5% on Brand PSU's (Antec,
Enermax, PP&C, Thermaltake etc)

I just dont like people *ever* giving the advice to get a Generic PSU,
since its one of the most critical parts in a system, and especially not
these ones adertised using stupid wattages.

A good power supply should perform within regulation under maximum load
conditions (that means that even when I pull its maximum rated wattage
from it, it should still not vary the rails beyond ATX tolerances)

That PSU is 600w in a fairy tale world where nothing exceeds 25C and
doesnt ask it to provide 600w true output for more than a few seconds
before dying.

Brand PSU's are always rated to what their TRUE Maximum Output Wattage
is (not theoretical) (sustained for 15-30 minutes depending on
manufacturer) and *THEN* under-rated, ie, if it pushes 395w, its not a
400w its a 330w, if it pushes 500, its sold as 425 or something, by
doing this, the assure that even under maximum RATED load, your voltage
regulation is still within tolerances.

As with most 'Generic' products, you get what you pay for.

Personally I think the idea of trusting a few hundred dollars worth of
hardware or more to a TWENTY-FOUR dollar PSU is asking for trouble.
You should consider running MBM or the like, and logging your voltages
for a few days, during all sorts of tasks, and watch for ripples.

Philip
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"Philip Callan" wrote in message
news:gu3Yb.530752$ts4.251398@pd7tw3no...
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Leadfoot wrote:

| I guess you don't know how to read. I wasn't flaming the enermax
|
| Quote:
|
| The enermax wasn't a bad unit
|
| Unquote
|
| The 600W POS (as you put it) is working fine with a 450+watt load as
| calculated from the website you provided. Not bad for 24$

I guess you suffer the syndrome you accuse me of:

Quote:

| Older review (which is very favorable, but compared to todays PSU , and
| the new ATX specification, its a DOG)

or

| The Enermax PSU has 0 problems, other than it was designed for far less
| hungry devices and motherboards than todays computers, you putting a
PSU
| that couldnt realistically provide the current you needed, does not
mean
| that your POS 600w generic is better than an Enermax.

I never said you were flaming the enermax, but when "Darkfalz" wrote:

| |Any good brand 300-400 watt should be fine. A good brand 250 watt
will
| |perform better than a generic 400 watt, so obviously the most
important
| |thing is to get a reputable brand (AOpen, Antec etc.).

You cried "Bull****" and then went on to describe how you took a 3yr old
+ powersupply with an inadequate 12v rail, tried to hook a newer spec
system drying far more load, and had problems, but when switching to
your generic 600w PSU, everything was fine.

Implying that the 600w was better than the Enermaxx


I was saying bull**** on making sure to buy a brand name PSU at 4 times the
price.


Thats the part I was contesting.

Generic PSU's will not perform better than their Brand counterparts *of
the same Wattage*

Simply because the machine 'runs' is not enough to say that its 'fine'

Consider why Generic PSU's simply add up their maximum load which it
cant realistically sustain for *ANY* period of time, since as soon as
they break 25C they start to degrade in performance, and no longer
output the W advertised, if they ever did. Brand PSU's are starting to
provide seperate voltage regulation for EACH rail (3.3/5v/12v) so that
large draws on any one rail it doesnt destabilize the other rails.

In probably 95% of generic PSU's, the 3.3 and 5v lines are together and
although their voltage 'ripple' may stay within ATX boundaries, its
5/10% are a far cry from the tolerated 3/5% on Brand PSU's (Antec,
Enermax, PP&C, Thermaltake etc)

About 90% or more of the branded PSU's have the 3.3 and 5V lines together
also. I think you can count the number where all three are separate on one
hand and usuallly it's the top end of the product line. They get quite
expensive



I just dont like people *ever* giving the advice to get a Generic PSU,
since its one of the most critical parts in a system, and especially not
these ones adertised using stupid wattages.

A good power supply should perform within regulation under maximum load
conditions (that means that even when I pull its maximum rated wattage
from it, it should still not vary the rails beyond ATX tolerances)

That PSU is 600w in a fairy tale world where nothing exceeds 25C and
doesnt ask it to provide 600w true output for more than a few seconds
before dying.

My system is at 32C at the moment. I don't think I'm going to draw more
than 540W (600W- 10%) until AMD reaches the K10 generation (assuming AMD64
=K8) and I'm not really interested in trying to get 600W out of it. As long
as it handles 450-500W for the very low price of TWENTY-FOUR DOLLARS. I'm
happy




Brand PSU's are always rated to what their TRUE Maximum Output Wattage
is (not theoretical) (sustained for 15-30 minutes depending on
manufacturer) and *THEN* under-rated, ie, if it pushes 395w, its not a
400w its a 330w, if it pushes 500, its sold as 425 or something, by
doing this, the assure that even under maximum RATED load, your voltage
regulation is still within tolerances.

As with most 'Generic' products, you get what you pay for.

Personally I think the idea of trusting a few hundred dollars worth of
hardware or more to a TWENTY-FOUR dollar PSU is asking for trouble.
You should consider running MBM or the like, and logging your voltages
for a few days, during all sorts of tasks, and watch for ripples.

Ahh you want me to use MBM in conjuction with the motherboard sensor to
determine what the regulation/ripple is of the power supply??? I have my
doubts about your technical ability if you really believe this

You don't do a SERIOUS test of a PSU with a motherboard sensor. You use a
voltmeter. Even better would be an Oscilloscope. I COULD do a voltmeter test
if I feel like spending the time to set it up and write down the results

But just to humor you I did a run of 3DMark03 with the MBM log turned on.
The highest percentage I got for regulation (12/3.3/5vdc) was 1.6%. I would
have liked to have done this over an extended period of time but there is a
limit of 1000 entries in the MBM log. I set it for 6 seconds Formula used
was Vhigh - Vlow / VAvg

I've erased the results but I can redo and post it someplace it if you'd
like and change the test conditions if you have a suggestion that makes
sense to me.

Anyway I'll laugh all the way to the bank

BTW the temp inside my case is about 32 C. Even though its February its a
little hot here in Phoenix.








Philip
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Leadfoot wrote:

| I was saying bull**** on making sure to buy a brand name PSU at 4
times the
| price.

Where did this 4x figure come from? it wasnt in the OP.

Okay, you obviously believe that paying 1000 dollars for a car that gets
you from A to B provided you have no more than # number of friends, and
provided the road is perfectly smooth, as opposed to paying 3-4000 for a
Truck that not only carries you, but 8 of your friends, up the side of a
mountain and through the mud.

| About 90% or more of the branded PSU's have the 3.3 and 5V lines together
| also. I think you can count the number where all three are separate
on one
| hand and usuallly it's the top end of the product line. They get quite
| expensive

Its usually the 'top' end of the product line since its what all QUALITY
~ psu's should start doing, especially given that a lot of newer devices
can really yank the heck out of a rail and destabilize the rest.

Its called Quality. You end up paying for it.

| My system is at 32C at the moment. I don't think I'm going to draw more
| than 540W (600W- 10%) until AMD reaches the K10 generation (assuming
AMD64
| =K8) and I'm not really interested in trying to get 600W out of it.
As long
| as it handles 450-500W for the very low price of TWENTY-FOUR DOLLARS. I'm
| happy


Ok, so your saying for $24 bucks, that your happy with your 600 W PSU,
provided you dont pull more than 450-500W from it (thats called
OVERRATING the PSU) I never said you couldnt be happy, I just asked that
you stop saying that people should buy Generic.

For the cost of my Sonata case (170CAN) I got a TruePower 380S in it, I
briefly contemplated replacing with a higher 'wattage' but after looking
into it, I found that unlike the 600w that is adequate to 450-500, my
380w is good to about 430w under max load. I'm quite happy with my PSU
as well.

| Ahh you want me to use MBM in conjuction with the motherboard sensor to
| determine what the regulation/ripple is of the power supply??? I have my
| doubts about your technical ability if you really believe this

Your welcome to doubt my ability, thats the benefit of a medium where I
can say something, and your not REQUIRED to believe me.

|
| You don't do a SERIOUS test of a PSU with a motherboard sensor. You use a
| voltmeter. Even better would be an Oscilloscope. I COULD do a
voltmeter test
| if I feel like spending the time to set it up and write down the results

I didnt equate it with a 'serious' test, just a fairly simple test that
anyone (*without* a voltmeter or oscilliscope) could do, I wasnt aware
you were that technically competent. And yes I know you are going to get
fluctuations simply beause of trace resistance, and that they arent the
most accurate. But in areas when taxing the system loads a rail to high,
~ its surely sensitive enough to determine the drop out on other rails.

| But just to humor you I did a run of 3DMark03 with the MBM log turned on.
| The highest percentage I got for regulation (12/3.3/5vdc) was 1.6%.
I would
| have liked to have done this over an extended period of time but
there is a
| limit of 1000 entries in the MBM log. I set it for 6 seconds Formula
used
| was Vhigh - Vlow / VAvg

I'm glad to hear it, I wasnt posting expecting you to come back saying
'OMG you were dead on" you'd said that you weren't having problems, so I
didnt expect you to come back with odd figures or anything, I was just
letting you know that although wattage/load may *NOT* be major factors
to you, ripple *should* be something your concerned with.

Philip
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On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 23:16:51 +0000, Philip Callan wrote:

Leadfoot wrote:

My system is at 32C at the moment. I don't think I'm going to draw
more than 540W (600W- 10%) until AMD reaches the K10 generation
(assuming AMD64=K8) and I'm not really interested in trying to get 600W
out of it. As long as it handles 450-500W for the very low price of
TWENTY-FOUR DOLLARS. I'm happy

Ok, so your saying for $24 bucks, that your happy with your 600 W PSU,
provided you dont pull more than 450-500W from it (thats called
OVERRATING the PSU) I never said you couldnt be happy, I just asked that
you stop saying that people should buy Generic.

Sorry, but I would also say buy generic. But I would also say always buy
bigger than what you think you need, generic or not. I'm not sure, but
genereics may or may not have a bigger failure rate, but it isn't twice as
high, and nowhere near the 3-6 times more you will pay for name brand.

I'm happy with all my cheapass PSU's Ive bought over the last 5 years for
personal use. They are ALL still running, except one that burned up in a
fire (not started by computer:-)). Over the last 10 years I've probably
built more than 100 systems and generic PSU's was the least of my
problems. So yes, I say buy generic too.

--
Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

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Wes Newell wrote:

|
| Sorry, but I would also say buy generic. But I would also say always buy
| bigger than what you think you need, generic or not. I'm not sure, but
| genereics may or may not have a bigger failure rate, but it isn't twice as
| high, and nowhere near the 3-6 times more you will pay for name brand.


Well, at least this one contains some good advice 'But I would also say
always buy bigger than what you think you need, generic or not'

I dont know where the 'twice as high' MTBF comes into play, I never made
that claim. And as for the 3-6 times figure, yes, you *could*
theoretically pay 6 times more for a Brand PSU vs a Generic.

Like that $24 600w vs a *REAL* 550w like this:

|
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduc...=BROWSE&depa=1

for woo, $100 US, so 4x the cost of a cheap PSU, maybe twice the cost of
a middle-line.

Philip
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i suppose you missed this one:
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProduc...103-438&depa=1

only $250!
660W

"Philip Callan" wrote in message
news:XDdYb.536092$ts4.384514@pd7tw3no...
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Wes Newell wrote:

|
| Sorry, but I would also say buy generic. But I would also say always buy
| bigger than what you think you need, generic or not. I'm not sure, but
| genereics may or may not have a bigger failure rate, but it isn't twice
as
| high, and nowhere near the 3-6 times more you will pay for name brand.


Well, at least this one contains some good advice 'But I would also say
always buy bigger than what you think you need, generic or not'

I dont know where the 'twice as high' MTBF comes into play, I never made
that claim. And as for the 3-6 times figure, yes, you *could*
theoretically pay 6 times more for a Brand PSU vs a Generic.

Like that $24 600w vs a *REAL* 550w like this:

|

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduc...=BROWSE&depa=1

for woo, $100 US, so 4x the cost of a cheap PSU, maybe twice the cost of
a middle-line.

Philip
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KJ wrote:

| i suppose you missed this one:
|
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProduc...103-438&depa=1
|
| only $250!
| 660W
|

No I didn't. But comparing Price differences between a BRAND PSU, that
actually delivers the advertised wattage, and can do so for extended
periods, without ripple, is unfair.

That 24$ 600w would be sold by most Brand companies as a 400w or 380w at
most. It cant realistically provide 600w, even the person using it said
as much, that they fell 'safe' about it provided he doesnt pull more
than the 450-500w he currently consumes.

Please stop comparing the price of a 1965 Corvair to a 2004 BMW, they
arent the same magnitude of quality.
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Hi Leadfoot,
I wish you luck but a $25 600W PS is like putting a junk yard engine in an
Indy 500 car s. The power supply is the heart of a good system. One
should *never* compromise on the PS.
--
Tally Ho!
Ed
"Leadfoot" wrote in message
news:KZXXb.4483$hE.2344@fed1read07...

"Darkfalz" wrote in message
...
"TboXx" wrote in message
m...
I know this is a motherboard forum but im guessing you all would know
if
your here anyway. Is there an easy way to tell what watt power supply
i
should get? or any site you could direct me to,
Thanks

Any good brand 300-400 watt should be fine. A good brand 250 watt will
perform better than a generic 400 watt, so obviously the most important
thing is to get a reputable brand (AOpen, Antec etc.).

Bull****!!!

I just went from an enermax EG-431 (79$ 2-3 years ago) that was choking
when
I ran 3dmark03 with an 2500xp being run as a 3200xp on an NF-7S to a 25$
600W power supply that runs 3dmark03 just fine at 11X200. Looped for 8
hours straight in test mode. The enermax wasn't a bad unit, its 15 amps
on
the 12v line simply wasn't enough. 24 amps with the Lead Power did the
trick. having a 9800, 3 7200rpm HD, 2 dvd's and 4 80mm fans with some
other
misc stuff didn't help.

http://tinyurl.com/2czrp

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Philip Callan wrote:

| KJ wrote:
|
| | i suppose you missed this one:
| |
|
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProduc...103-438&depa=1
| |
| | only $250!
| | 660W
| |
|
| No I didn't. But comparing Price differences between a BRAND PSU, that
| actually delivers the advertised wattage, and can do so for extended
| periods, without ripple, is unfair.
|

I should qualify this, 'without *ATX specification acceptable or BETTER*
ripple'

| That 24$ 600w would be sold by most Brand companies as a 400w or 380w at
| most. It cant realistically provide 600w, even the person using it said
| as much, that they fell 'safe' about it provided he doesnt pull more
| than the 450-500w he currently consumes.
|
| Please stop comparing the price of a 1965 Corvair to a 2004 BMW, they
| arent the same magnitude of quality.
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