Norton Ghost - Clone Won't Work

Bob Davis wrote:

"David Maynard" wrote in message
...


I have noticed that when I restore XP from one of my clones that I always
get a "Windows is installing your new hardware...." window when I boot up
fresh after the restore operation. There is no hint of what hardware it
refers to, but when I reboot again all is back to normal. Does XP see
the C: drive as a new drive?

A new "C" drive is likely what it's "installing."


But if I clone the C: drive that XP hasn't even seen,

I don't understand what "the C: drive that XP hasn't even seen" is. How did
it get to be 'C' if XP hasn't seen it?

then I restore that
clone back to the same C: drive as before at a later date, how would XP know
there was a change?

Well, if XP hadn't even seen the original C drive then the registry had no
entry for it when it was cloned so the restored 'clone' wouldn't have the
'C' drive entry either.

All Ghost operations are performed in PCDOS from a floppy.


If so, how could it? I made a clone from the same drive, then restored
it, so how would it even know the difference?

I don't know if by clone you mean really a clone or a ghost image. And an
image of what and when.


I only clone the entire drive for this machine, no image file is created.

Ok.

XP serializes the drives and partitions so it knows which one is which and
those 'serialized' partitions are what get assigned drive letters. If the
serials don't match then it's going to 'install' the 'new' one and assign
drive letters.


From the time it is cloned 'til restored the drive starts and ends with the
same hardware. In between there is another drive but XP never sees it.
Well, once or twice I plugged it into the mobil rack and pulled a file off
the clone from within XP, but not often.

Then XP saw it

That drive goes in as G:, and I
doubt if any of these drives have been used in this way and then used to
restore the C: drive. When it is cloned again I would think any
manipulation from XP would be eradicated.

I'm not entirely sure about that because the drive serialization is
embedded at the end of the MBR. Fixboot, for example, doesn't remove or
change it but I'm not sure what a ghost clone does. I can imagine ghost
either being 'efficient', and only copying the boot part itself ala
fixboot, or being 'comprehensive' and copying every bit. If it's copying
every bit then the disk ID would change when the drive was put in for 'just
a couple of files' and then the clone back would alter the original drive's
ID so it no longer matched the clone's registry.

Frankly, I can also imagine ghost intentionally clearing the drive ID as a
'clone' couldn't possibly be 'the same drive' to begin with.

So it depends on when you made the clone/image, whether the drive had been
previously installed, if it was installed afterwards, and what state it's
in when you 'clone' it back.


All of the cloned drives have been installed on a Windows machine at one
time or another, some as permanent drives.

Then they got given an ID in the MBR.

But when the present C: drive is
cloned onto one of these six drives from PCDOS, XP never sees the receiving
drive and there should be no mutation of the data in either transfer. When
that data is restored to C:, the permanent boot drive containing XP, how
could XP even know another drive has touched it?

I don't have a definitive answer but I think I've shown how the disk and
partition IDs could account for the behavior and that it doesn't take much
to cause it.

"Art" wrote in message
...

I've queried Symantec about this, but have never been given a clear
explanation as to why the above occurs. It's apparent that Ghost is
introducing something on the cloned drive that causes XP to see it as "new
hardware". It's a minor inconvenience and, in my experience, has never had
any effect on the validity of the clone or on XP's Activation process.

That's very interesting. I've noticed this on every restore I've done with
XP, but can't recall if this occurred with Win98SE. The first time it
happened I was very alarmed, at least 'til I safely rebooted without issue.

It'd be revealing if the XP message about new hardware would ID the device
it thinks it's installing. Anyway, my experience jibes with yours, that
nothing goes arwy after that first reboot and all is well.

"David Maynard" wrote in message
...

Bob Davis wrote:

"David Maynard" wrote in message
...

I have noticed that when I restore XP from one of my clones that I
always get a "Windows is installing your new hardware...." window when I
boot up fresh after the restore operation. There is no hint of what
hardware it refers to, but when I reboot again all is back to normal.
Does XP see the C: drive as a new drive?

A new "C" drive is likely what it's "installing."


But if I clone the C: drive that XP hasn't even seen,

I don't understand what "the C: drive that XP hasn't even seen" is. How
did it get to be 'C' if XP hasn't seen it?

G Sometimes an explanation doesn't materialize like it is envisioned.
Allow me to re-phrase:

The C: drive containing XP (#1) is cloned to another HD (#2), which XP has
never seen, then that clone is restored back to the original C: drive again.
The speculation was that somehow XP knew there was a switch of some sort,
but how could it if it has never "seen" the cloned drive before?
Presumably, the data from #1 is identical to #2, and other than the drive
size nothing is different. Then when it is restored, that identical data is
moved back to #1, which should make things exactly like they were when the
clone was originally performed.

Now, since #1 is not the same size as the group of #2's I have in mobil
racks, and since Ghost is repartitioning and formating on the fly, perhaps
that is a factor in the puzzle. Don't ask me what, though.

Alas, this may be as perplexing as my last attempt to explain this.

Well, if XP hadn't even seen the original C drive then the registry had no
entry for it when it was cloned so the restored 'clone' wouldn't have the
'C' drive entry either.

The original C: has been in the system from the outset.

I'm not entirely sure about that because the drive serialization is
embedded at the end of the MBR. Fixboot, for example, doesn't remove or
change it but I'm not sure what a ghost clone does. I can imagine ghost
either being 'efficient', and only copying the boot part itself ala
fixboot, or being 'comprehensive' and copying every bit. If it's copying
every bit then the disk ID would change when the drive was put in for
'just a couple of files' and then the clone back would alter the original
drive's ID so it no longer matched the clone's registry.

You may have hit on something. Maybe it's the MBR that's triggering this
reaction, which ties into my comments about partitioning and formating
above.

"jimbo" wrote in message
...

Yes, I also got a message about new hardware being detected when I booted
from the cloned HD. But when I changed back to the original HD, there was
no such message.

If you cloned to a new HD, as when you move to a larger drive, I can see
this happening since the new drive will be a different size, presumably
larger. But I get the message when a clone is made, then restored back to
the original drive, which should put things back to the state when the
original cloning occurred.

Bob Davis wrote:

"Art" wrote in message
...


I've queried Symantec about this, but have never been given a clear
explanation as to why the above occurs. It's apparent that Ghost is
introducing something on the cloned drive that causes XP to see it as "new
hardware". It's a minor inconvenience and, in my experience, has never had
any effect on the validity of the clone or on XP's Activation process.


That's very interesting. I've noticed this on every restore I've done with
XP, but can't recall if this occurred with Win98SE.

Win9x doesn't serialize drives, or make any special identification.
Whatever order they're in on the IDE ports is what they are.

The first time it
happened I was very alarmed, at least 'til I safely rebooted without issue.

It'd be revealing if the XP message about new hardware would ID the device
it thinks it's installing. Anyway, my experience jibes with yours, that
nothing goes arwy after that first reboot and all is well.

Bob Davis wrote:

"David Maynard" wrote in message
...


Bob Davis wrote:


"David Maynard" wrote in message
...


I have noticed that when I restore XP from one of my clones that I
always get a "Windows is installing your new hardware...." window when I
boot up fresh after the restore operation. There is no hint of what
hardware it refers to, but when I reboot again all is back to normal.
Does XP see the C: drive as a new drive?

A new "C" drive is likely what it's "installing."


But if I clone the C: drive that XP hasn't even seen,

I don't understand what "the C: drive that XP hasn't even seen" is. How
did it get to be 'C' if XP hasn't seen it?


G Sometimes an explanation doesn't materialize like it is envisioned.
Allow me to re-phrase:

The C: drive containing XP (#1) is cloned to another HD (#2), which XP has
never seen, then that clone is restored back to the original C: drive again.
The speculation was that somehow XP knew there was a switch of some sort,
but how could it if it has never "seen" the cloned drive before?
Presumably, the data from #1 is identical to #2, and other than the drive
size nothing is different. Then when it is restored, that identical data is
moved back to #1, which should make things exactly like they were when the
clone was originally performed.

Now, since #1 is not the same size as the group of #2's I have in mobil
racks, and since Ghost is repartitioning and formating on the fly, perhaps
that is a factor in the puzzle. Don't ask me what, though.

Alas, this may be as perplexing as my last attempt to explain this.

Try using the -FDSP switch next time you do a clone backup and the
subsequent restore.

Note: that won't work if you leave the cloned drive installed and boot with
it there. Two drives with the same ID is a no-no.


Well, if XP hadn't even seen the original C drive then the registry had no
entry for it when it was cloned so the restored 'clone' wouldn't have the
'C' drive entry either.


The original C: has been in the system from the outset.


I'm not entirely sure about that because the drive serialization is
embedded at the end of the MBR. Fixboot, for example, doesn't remove or
change it but I'm not sure what a ghost clone does. I can imagine ghost
either being 'efficient', and only copying the boot part itself ala
fixboot, or being 'comprehensive' and copying every bit. If it's copying
every bit then the disk ID would change when the drive was put in for
'just a couple of files' and then the clone back would alter the original
drive's ID so it no longer matched the clone's registry.


You may have hit on something. Maybe it's the MBR that's triggering this
reaction, which ties into my comments about partitioning and formating
above.



Amusing that you snipped out "Frankly, I can also imagine ghost
intentionally clearing the drive ID as a 'clone' couldn't possibly be 'the
same drive' to begin with" because that is probably what's happening in
your case.

http://service1.symantec.com/SUPPORT...98082612540625

-FDSP

Force Disk Signature Preserve. Use to resolve bootup failures after cloning
a disk on a Windows 2000 computer, especially when the disk and controller
are the same in the source and destination computers, but the partition
sizes or layout are different. This switch prevents Ghost from
----------------automatically forcing a disk initialization,
which Ghost does by default-----------------------
when imaging a Windows 2000 disk.



-FDSZ

Force Disk Signature to zero. Use to resolve bootup failures after cloning
a partition on a Windows 2000 computer, especially when the disk and
controller are the same in the source and destination computers, but the
partition sizes or layout are different. This switch configures Ghost to
force a disk initialization.

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:39:07 -0700, jimbo wrote:

jimbo wrote:
Bob Davis wrote:

"jimbo" wrote in message
...


OK, here is the last chapter. Things got much worse, couldn't boot at
all after an aborted atempt at a repair installation. I finally
decided to punt and do a new installation. I never use Win98, so I
decided to just do a new WinXP install on "C". First, I copied all
files on "C" to the new hard drive. Then I changed all jumpers to
cable select and installed the old "C" drive to the master position,
with nothing in slave position. I used a Win98 boot floppy to delete
all partitions, then created one new partition. The new WinXP
installation stalled while searching for devices. So, I basically
gutted my case, one hard drive, one DVD drive, video card, mouse and
keyboard was all that was left. WinXP installed without a problem.



I would keep C: by itself as master (end of cable) on one controller
and put the old drive (master) and DVD (slave) on the other. You
should always keep the devices to a minimum when installing XP, as on
two systems recently I've seen it pick up card readers, etc., as C: and
placing the boot HD as O: or some other unacceptable letter.


Just a few comments. I think Norton Ghost caused most of my problems.



I don't think so, as I've cloned with Ghost dozens (hundreds?) of times
and restored on at least 10 occasions, and never had a glitch.
Admittedly, I've never tried to clone or restore on a dual-boot system,
but I suspect XP was having a drive-letter crisis that lead to your
problems. I think once you get XP running smoothly, if you haven't
already, I'm sure you'll be able to clone the drive reliably. I do it
weekly rotating six drives in mobil racks, and once it a while it has
been a lifesaver when some driver or installation goes awry and there's
no way to otherwise recover.

This happened just recently when horrific noises started coming out of
the PC speaker at shutdown or restart, as if the CPU was overheating
(it wasn't), but happening only sporadically. I couldn't figure it out
so I restored a recent clone and incremental backups I make hourly to
D: through a batch file running via Task Scheduler, and in 15 or 20
minutes was up and running again.


And with 99% of my programs reinstalled, the system is much more
responsive and seems much faster than before this ordeal. So, even
though it was more work than I wanted the results are worth the
effort.



Keep the spyware out with Spybot or AdAware SE, SpywareBlaster, and a
custom HOSTS file (http://www.mvps.org/winhelp2002/hosts.htm), and keep
the registry free of clutter with a cleaner like Registry First Aid
(http://www.rosecitysoftware.com/reg1aid/). That'll help keep things
lean and clean over the long haul that may help you avoid reinstalls of
XP. I've had XP installed here for 15 months without a reinstall and
it runs as fast as it ever did without crashes.





Thanks for the reply. Well, I used Ghost to make a working clone of my
current 40 GB "C" drive to my old, now spare 40 GB drive. Everything
worked perfectly and the clone boots to WinXP just fine. So Ghost works
on a vanilla system with the OS on "C". But Ghost didn't seem to get it
right on my dual boot setup with WinXP on "D" drive. The original clone
with Ghost seemed to be OK, files and directories appeared to be the
same on the clone as on the original "D". But it wouldn't boot to WinXP.

Anyway, I almost never used Win98, so I am better off with Win98 gone
and WinXP as my only OS on "C" drive.

And I use Spybot and Ace Utilities on a regular basis. And I use NOD32
in an active role and Avast! in a passive role and I practice safe Hex.
And I check running applications and services on a regular basis, so my
system stays as clean as I know how to keep it. But despite the
precautions, the system had slowed down significantly since April 2003.

I wonder if all of the Windows updates that I allowed to be installed
since April 2003 had anything to do with the slow down? The current
WinXP is SP1 as installed from the CD.

jimbo

Yes, I also got a message about new hardware being detected when I booted
from the cloned HD. But when I changed back to the original HD, there was
no such message.

And Ace Utilities includes a registry cleaner, and yes, it finds problems
even with the new installation.

Since WinXP always seems to assign the proper drive letter, no matter what
kind of swap I make, it seems unlikely that there is a confusion about
drive letters. I think there is a problem with the fact that "D" drive was
a boot drive when I had the dual boot setup. Ghost may not be cloning the
boot sector, or something else that is required for the WinXP boot from
"D". I know that "C" has the MBR and the boot sector on "C" points to the
other files needed, ntdetect.com, ntldr and boot.ini. But I don't know if
a boot sector on "D" gets called or how WinXP boots when it is installed
on "D".

jimbo


That is what I thought would happen. Although you can make a clone of the
data and partitions on a drive the drive's id is not changed. This
impacts MS top secret formula for piracy protection (ie, forcing repair
installation of XP). There's instructions on the MS support site
describing how to clone drives using sysprep on the drive to be cloned
before making the clone.

jaster wrote:
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:39:07 -0700, jimbo wrote:


jimbo wrote:

Bob Davis wrote:


"jimbo" wrote in message
...



OK, here is the last chapter. Things got much worse, couldn't boot at
all after an aborted atempt at a repair installation. I finally
decided to punt and do a new installation. I never use Win98, so I
decided to just do a new WinXP install on "C". First, I copied all
files on "C" to the new hard drive. Then I changed all jumpers to
cable select and installed the old "C" drive to the master position,
with nothing in slave position. I used a Win98 boot floppy to delete
all partitions, then created one new partition. The new WinXP
installation stalled while searching for devices. So, I basically
gutted my case, one hard drive, one DVD drive, video card, mouse and
keyboard was all that was left. WinXP installed without a problem.



I would keep C: by itself as master (end of cable) on one controller
and put the old drive (master) and DVD (slave) on the other. You
should always keep the devices to a minimum when installing XP, as on
two systems recently I've seen it pick up card readers, etc., as C: and
placing the boot HD as O: or some other unacceptable letter.



Just a few comments. I think Norton Ghost caused most of my problems.



I don't think so, as I've cloned with Ghost dozens (hundreds?) of times
and restored on at least 10 occasions, and never had a glitch.
Admittedly, I've never tried to clone or restore on a dual-boot system,
but I suspect XP was having a drive-letter crisis that lead to your
problems. I think once you get XP running smoothly, if you haven't
already, I'm sure you'll be able to clone the drive reliably. I do it
weekly rotating six drives in mobil racks, and once it a while it has
been a lifesaver when some driver or installation goes awry and there's
no way to otherwise recover.

This happened just recently when horrific noises started coming out of
the PC speaker at shutdown or restart, as if the CPU was overheating
(it wasn't), but happening only sporadically. I couldn't figure it out
so I restored a recent clone and incremental backups I make hourly to
D: through a batch file running via Task Scheduler, and in 15 or 20
minutes was up and running again.



And with 99% of my programs reinstalled, the system is much more
responsive and seems much faster than before this ordeal. So, even
though it was more work than I wanted the results are worth the
effort.



Keep the spyware out with Spybot or AdAware SE, SpywareBlaster, and a
custom HOSTS file (http://www.mvps.org/winhelp2002/hosts.htm), and keep
the registry free of clutter with a cleaner like Registry First Aid
(http://www.rosecitysoftware.com/reg1aid/). That'll help keep things
lean and clean over the long haul that may help you avoid reinstalls of
XP. I've had XP installed here for 15 months without a reinstall and
it runs as fast as it ever did without crashes.






Thanks for the reply. Well, I used Ghost to make a working clone of my
current 40 GB "C" drive to my old, now spare 40 GB drive. Everything
worked perfectly and the clone boots to WinXP just fine. So Ghost works
on a vanilla system with the OS on "C". But Ghost didn't seem to get it
right on my dual boot setup with WinXP on "D" drive. The original clone
with Ghost seemed to be OK, files and directories appeared to be the
same on the clone as on the original "D". But it wouldn't boot to WinXP.

Anyway, I almost never used Win98, so I am better off with Win98 gone
and WinXP as my only OS on "C" drive.

And I use Spybot and Ace Utilities on a regular basis. And I use NOD32
in an active role and Avast! in a passive role and I practice safe Hex.
And I check running applications and services on a regular basis, so my
system stays as clean as I know how to keep it. But despite the
precautions, the system had slowed down significantly since April 2003.

I wonder if all of the Windows updates that I allowed to be installed
since April 2003 had anything to do with the slow down? The current
WinXP is SP1 as installed from the CD.

jimbo

Yes, I also got a message about new hardware being detected when I booted
from the cloned HD. But when I changed back to the original HD, there was
no such message.

And Ace Utilities includes a registry cleaner, and yes, it finds problems
even with the new installation.

Since WinXP always seems to assign the proper drive letter, no matter what
kind of swap I make, it seems unlikely that there is a confusion about
drive letters. I think there is a problem with the fact that "D" drive was
a boot drive when I had the dual boot setup. Ghost may not be cloning the
boot sector, or something else that is required for the WinXP boot from
"D". I know that "C" has the MBR and the boot sector on "C" points to the
other files needed, ntdetect.com, ntldr and boot.ini. But I don't know if
a boot sector on "D" gets called or how WinXP boots when it is installed
on "D".

jimbo



That is what I thought would happen. Although you can make a clone of the
data and partitions on a drive the drive's id is not changed.

Depends on what you use to clone it with and what switches are applied.
Ghost will do it either way with the default for a whole drive clone being
to not preserve the disk ID.

This
impacts MS top secret formula for piracy protection (ie, forcing repair
installation of XP).

Cloning a drive does not force needing an XP repair, whether you preserved
the disk ID or not.

There's instructions on the MS support site
describing how to clone drives using sysprep on the drive to be cloned
before making the clone.

The biggest reason to use sysprep is when rolling out multiple systems from
the same image. You need to force it to remake the system IDs or else you
end up with multiple systems claiming to be the same one and the domain
controller will reject the duplicates. That's a completely different matter
than disk and partition IDs.

In article ,
says...
jaster wrote:
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:39:07 -0700, jimbo wrote:


snip



That is what I thought would happen. Although you can make a clone of the
data and partitions on a drive the drive's id is not changed.

Depends on what you use to clone it with and what switches are applied.
Ghost will do it either way with the default for a whole drive clone being
to not preserve the disk ID.

This
impacts MS top secret formula for piracy protection (ie, forcing repair
installation of XP).

Cloning a drive does not force needing an XP repair, whether you preserved
the disk ID or not.

Does that depend on the cloning process? I had a friend who's XP HD was
getting too small and needed replacing and so I cloned the drive using
bootitng. However, when I booted from this drive XP complained that
product activation was now required and that was that, it just wouldn't
boot into windows. The XP O/S was an OEM version of XP Pro.


snip
--
Pete Ives
Remove All_stRESS before sending me an email

Peter wrote:
In article ,
says...

jaster wrote:

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:39:07 -0700, jimbo wrote:



snip



That is what I thought would happen. Although you can make a clone of the
data and partitions on a drive the drive's id is not changed.

Depends on what you use to clone it with and what switches are applied.
Ghost will do it either way with the default for a whole drive clone being
to not preserve the disk ID.


This
impacts MS top secret formula for piracy protection (ie, forcing repair
installation of XP).

Cloning a drive does not force needing an XP repair, whether you preserved
the disk ID or not.


Does that depend on the cloning process? I had a friend who's XP HD was
getting too small and needed replacing and so I cloned the drive using
bootitng. However, when I booted from this drive XP complained that
product activation was now required and that was that, it just wouldn't
boot into windows. The XP O/S was an OEM version of XP Pro.

Needing reactivation due to a hardware change is a different thing than
needing to do a repair installation.

I don't know if preserving the disk ID would have avoided that in your case.