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#1
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Building a Desktop Number Cruncher
I want to build a good desk top number cruncher. Primary usage is a C
based program that performs the mathmatical calculations used to map out a topology of various parameters. I do not need high end graphics. Is a motherboard such as the ASUS P5K3 Delux a good choice? http://computershopper.com/reviews/a...erboard-review The above motherboard accepts up to 8 gigabytes (4 x 2) of DDR3 memory at up to 1,600 MHz. Considering Vista Ultimate 64-bit is able to support up to 128GB of memory ... http://www.crucial.com/kb/answer.aspx?qid=4251 .... what motherboard/memory card combinations should I consider that could go beyond the above motherboard's 8 gig limit? I am currently looking at Intel Quad CPU's ... but understand that for pure number crunching tasks there are other issues (i.e. L2 cache) that enter into the performance calculation. Perhaps I should consider an AMD configuration? A dream set-up would be a multibladed server with lots of cores working independently ... but for now a quad core desktop would really be stretching my available funds. The ultimate would some research super computer!! Looking into DDR3 memory modules and latency issues http://www.kingston.com/hyperx/products/ddr3_faq.asp --------------------------------- Below is from above site: Q. What latencies will standard DDR3 DIMMs support? A. JEDEC DDR3 specifications define standard DDR3 CAS Latencies of 7, 9, and 10: -1066MHz DDR3: CAS 7 (7-7-7) -1333MHz DDR3: CAS 9 (9-9-9) -1600MHz DDR3: CAS 10 (10-10-10) ---------------------------------- Seems the higher latency chews up a lot of the higher speed performance? Any advice for building a good number cruncher will be much appreciated. I will greatly value the input from those with 64-bit experience. Currently I am stuck in the single core, 32-bit realm and am looking for the fast lane. GiGa-Thanks !! |
#2
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Building a Desktop Number Cruncher
Tom wrote:
I want to build a good desk top number cruncher. Primary usage is a C based program that performs the mathmatical calculations used to map out a topology of various parameters. I do not need high end graphics. Is a motherboard such as the ASUS P5K3 Delux a good choice? http://computershopper.com/reviews/a...erboard-review The above motherboard accepts up to 8 gigabytes (4 x 2) of DDR3 memory at up to 1,600 MHz. Considering Vista Ultimate 64-bit is able to support up to 128GB of memory ... Don't even consider Vista. Linux will give you more performance, be totally transparent, and you can have complete source if you wish. It also costs much less. Nor will it call home and expose all your secrets. Best of all is the EULA. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. http://cbfalconer.home.att.net -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
#3
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Building a Desktop Number Cruncher
On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:18:12 -0400, CBFalconer
wrote: Tom wrote: I want to build a good desk top number cruncher. Primary usage is a C based program that performs the mathmatical calculations used to map out a topology of various parameters. I do not need high end graphics. Is a motherboard such as the ASUS P5K3 Delux a good choice? http://computershopper.com/reviews/a...erboard-review The above motherboard accepts up to 8 gigabytes (4 x 2) of DDR3 memory at up to 1,600 MHz. Considering Vista Ultimate 64-bit is able to support up to 128GB of memory ... Don't even consider Vista. Linux will give you more performance, be totally transparent, and you can have complete source if you wish. It also costs much less. Nor will it call home and expose all your secrets. Best of all is the EULA. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. http://cbfalconer.home.att.net Thanks Chuck -- I have begun researching Linux 64 bit. First article I found dated back to 2003 ... so there must be a LOT for me to catch up on! I have never used Linux ... but I keep hearing the phrases of those who do. Perhaps I should take the plunge. I'd much prefer stability, security, and performance over aero effects and phone home hassles. The only hesitation is my total ignorance of Linux. I guess everything would be new from word processor, spreadsheet, C/C++ IDE, etc. That's a big bite to take ... but it does look appealing. Thanks again for the advise. -- Tom |
#4
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Building a Desktop Number Cruncher
On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:43:50 -0500, Tom
wrote: I want to build a good desk top number cruncher. Primary usage is a C based program that performs the mathmatical calculations used to map out a topology of various parameters. I do not need high end graphics. Is a motherboard such as the ASUS P5K3 Delux a good choice? First, you should determine which processor architecture performs best at your particular App. Until you know this, you can't know if a particular board is the best choice since it will only support one of several CPU possibilities. For some uses, including general PC use, a Core2Duo is the best median-priced option, but when talking about a special purpose build, Core2Duo may not be the right choice. In some cases, even the dreaded Pentium4 is a better band for the buck, but are you looking for best band for buck or best performance, IOW, what is more important the price or performance if you had to pick one, and what is the budget ceiling? http://computershopper.com/reviews/a...erboard-review The above motherboard accepts up to 8 gigabytes (4 x 2) of DDR3 memory at up to 1,600 MHz. Ok, but how much memory do you *need* for your special purpose? Beyond a certain point, adding more memory than is needed just raises cost and/or requires slower memory timings that will degrade the performance of the application by a few percent. Considering Vista Ultimate 64-bit is able to support up to 128GB of memory ... http://www.crucial.com/kb/answer.aspx?qid=4251 ... what motherboard/memory card combinations should I consider that could go beyond the above motherboard's 8 gig limit? Number crunching seldom needs these large amounts of memory. Would you be surprised if the typical number cruncher didn't even need 128MB with WinXP? However, I don't know your particular application, that will certainly matter. I am currently looking at Intel Quad CPU's ... Why? Is your app quad core optimized? Most number cruncher apps aren't even dual core optimized. Generally (historically) someone looking for good number crunchig would want to determine if floating point performance is important, what L2 cache size their working code fits within, and within these limitations, pick the highest IPC core and highest clockspeed core possible. When doing a specific thing, the generalized web review benchmarks fly out the window. It really matters a lot what the specifics are of your particular task. but understand that for pure number crunching tasks there are other issues (i.e. L2 cache) that enter into the performance calculation. Perhaps I should consider an AMD configuration? You should seek benchmarks of your specific app, or find a roughly equivalent task keeping in mind issues of floating point significance (or not), cache size, clockspeed, etc... then seek benchmarks for that equivalent app on different CPU designs. A dream set-up would be a multibladed server with lots of cores working independently ... Really? Can your code accomplish this? If it can't, some kind of exotic cooling to run fewer cores and insane speeds would be more effective. but for now a quad core desktop would really be stretching my available funds. The ultimate would some research super computer!! Maybe, maybe not. Some tasks depend more on a fast memory bus, and to make use of parallel processing you would require code written to do it. IOW, on some supercomputers, some apps will run slower than on a modern purpose-optimized desktop. Looking into DDR3 memory modules and latency issues http://www.kingston.com/hyperx/products/ddr3_faq.asp --------------------------------- Below is from above site: Q. What latencies will standard DDR3 DIMMs support? A. JEDEC DDR3 specifications define standard DDR3 CAS Latencies of 7, 9, and 10: -1066MHz DDR3: CAS 7 (7-7-7) -1333MHz DDR3: CAS 9 (9-9-9) -1600MHz DDR3: CAS 10 (10-10-10) ---------------------------------- Seems the higher latency chews up a lot of the higher speed performance? I am starting to suspect your post is some kind of kid's-dream, that you are not serious about really building a system. You write about PC parts then DDR3 and supercomputers. If you can divide the work like that, how about just building separate budget-effective systems. Three $1,000 systems will have higher performance than one $3,000 system if you can do this. Any advice for building a good number cruncher will be much appreciated. I will greatly value the input from those with 64-bit experience. Why? Do you see a benefit from a 64 bit system? Your post is far too light on details of your applications optimizations and requirements. Currently I am stuck in the single core, 32-bit realm and am looking for the fast lane. If you have no reason to believe these more exotic things will help, a 32bit single core may actually be the highest performing solution. It depends entirely on exactly what you're trying to do, down to the last detail. I'm not trying to discourage an elaborate cutting edge system but so far, no details have suggested a gain from these things. |
#5
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Building a Desktop Number Cruncher
Tom wrote:
CBFalconer wrote: Tom wrote: I want to build a good desk top number cruncher. Primary usage is a C based program that performs the mathmatical calculations used to map out a topology of various parameters. I do not need high end graphics. Is a motherboard such as the ASUS P5K3 Delux a good choice? http://computershopper.com/reviews/a...erboard-review The above motherboard accepts up to 8 gigabytes (4 x 2) of DDR3 memory at up to 1,600 MHz. Considering Vista Ultimate 64-bit is able to support up to 128GB of memory ... Don't even consider Vista. Linux will give you more performance, be totally transparent, and you can have complete source if you wish. It also costs much less. Nor will it call home and expose all your secrets. Best of all is the EULA. I have begun researching Linux 64 bit. First article I found dated back to 2003 ... so there must be a LOT for me to catch up on! I have never used Linux ... but I keep hearing the phrases of those who do. Perhaps I should take the plunge. I'd much prefer stability, security, and performance over aero effects and phone home hassles. The only hesitation is my total ignorance of Linux. I guess everything would be new from word processor, spreadsheet, C/C++ IDE, etc. That's a big bite to take ... but it does look appealing. Just go to ubuntu.com and order the (free) cdrom. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. http://cbfalconer.home.att.net -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
#6
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Building a Desktop Number Cruncher
"Tom" wrote in message
... I want to build a good desk top number cruncher. Primary usage is a C based program that performs the mathmatical calculations used to map out a topology of various parameters. I do not need high end graphics. Is a motherboard such as the ASUS P5K3 Delux a good choice? Before answering any of the other points in your post. Is the number crunching software multithreaded? If it is written in C, then I would suspect not, so multiple cores etc is a waste of time! |
#7
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Building a Desktop Number Cruncher
"CBFalconer" wrote in message
... Tom wrote: CBFalconer wrote: Tom wrote: I want to build a good desk top number cruncher. Primary usage is a C based program that performs the mathmatical calculations used to map out a topology of various parameters. I do not need high end graphics. Is a motherboard such as the ASUS P5K3 Delux a good choice? http://computershopper.com/reviews/a...erboard-review The above motherboard accepts up to 8 gigabytes (4 x 2) of DDR3 memory at up to 1,600 MHz. Considering Vista Ultimate 64-bit is able to support up to 128GB of memory ... Don't even consider Vista. Linux will give you more performance, be totally transparent, and you can have complete source if you wish. It also costs much less. Nor will it call home and expose all your secrets. Best of all is the EULA. I have begun researching Linux 64 bit. First article I found dated back to 2003 ... so there must be a LOT for me to catch up on! I have never used Linux ... but I keep hearing the phrases of those who do. Perhaps I should take the plunge. I'd much prefer stability, security, and performance over aero effects and phone home hassles. The only hesitation is my total ignorance of Linux. I guess everything would be new from word processor, spreadsheet, C/C++ IDE, etc. That's a big bite to take ... but it does look appealing. Just go to ubuntu.com and order the (free) cdrom. Will that OS run a windows based application? |
#8
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Building a Desktop Number Cruncher
Tom wrote in
: I want to build a good desk top number cruncher. Primary usage is a C based program that performs the mathmatical calculations used to map out a topology of various parameters. I do not need high end graphics. snip I will greatly value the input from those with 64-bit experience. Currently I am stuck in the single core, 32-bit realm and am looking for the fast lane. GiGa-Thanks !! Giga Hellos Tom, I have used XP x64 and Vista 64 bit and I like them a lot but there are some issues that you should consider before you go that route. Not all hardware has drivers for the 64 bit versions but since you are talking about building from scratch, you can eliminate those problems up- front with some research. You would still have to worry though about drivers for printers, modems, scanners, etc that you already own. Next you need to find out if the applications that you want to run will work in the 64 bit version. Forget 16 bit programs - they won't run at all. 32 bit programs for the most part will run, but verify first. Programs like firewalls, anti-virus and some games are the most problematic. 64 bit programs will run of course, but are still few and far between. Since you don't need Aero, XP x64 would probably be a better choice for you. If you have the right drivers, it is very stable and fast. I don't know this for a fact, but I suspect XP x64 would run most number crunching apps faster than Vista 64 bit. You can still order or download a free trial version of XP x64 at: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/6...cts/trial.mspx Try it and see if it works for you. You have 120 days to test it before it goes into 60 days of 'limited functionality mode'. As you say, the 64 bit operating systems break the 4 GB barrier, but if you only need two GB to do your number crunching, 32 bit will suffice. The 64 bit versions *are* recommended for people just like you who will be working with large amounts of data like audio/video editing and large data file manipulation. You didn't mention just how much data you will be crunching. You should also consider a RAID 0 or RAID 0 + RAID 1 setup in addition to a standalone hard drive if you want speed. Your hard drive will be a real bottleneck when working with large data files. The RAID 0 volume space is perfect for fast temporary data manipulation. Again, this depends on just how big these data files of yours are. -- Alan "Pecos" Norton |
#9
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Building a Desktop Number Cruncher
On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 10:27:30 +0100, "GT"
wrote: "Tom" wrote in message .. . I want to build a good desk top number cruncher. Primary usage is a C based program that performs the mathmatical calculations used to map out a topology of various parameters. I do not need high end graphics. Is a motherboard such as the ASUS P5K3 Delux a good choice? Before answering any of the other points in your post. Is the number crunching software multithreaded? If it is written in C, then I would suspect not, so multiple cores etc is a waste of time! Yes, it is multi-threaded. The reason I mentioned the program type was so that others would realize I was not building a gaming rig or running a canned application that required a specific operating system. BTW ... my current favorite book on this topic is Sybex's "C# Network Programming" by Richard Blum. Even though it is based on C# and not C++. The program uses double precision predominately. Thus it takes two clock cycles to move a single value. I have zero 64 bit experience, but simply moving values in one clock cycle should drastically improve the speed. To run a single thread requires about 0.7 gig of ram including the full buffering of raw data. A single 2.4 GHz machine requires about 10 hours per window year. Thus a 4 year moving and dynamically optimized window requires 40 hours each time you move the window. I'm wanting to build a 4 core system in the $2,000 to $3,500 range and make smart choices on operating system and components. My guess is that such a system can reduce my current machine's topology 40 hour run times down to about 4 hours. Do I need more than 8 gig of ram for a 4 core system when running my topology program? No. I do not know if there is a time penalty for allowing each thread on each core to share the same buffered raw data. If there is a time penalty ... each core could independently buffer the same data. Certainly the number of threads and cores directly impacts the performance of topology type work. Two gigs of ram would be sufficient for four threads if no data buffer sharing penalty exists. My question about addressing up to 128 gig with a 64 bit operating system is not just a hardware curiosity issue. In the future I want to run multiple instances of my program in real time data acquisition mode. Each instance will need approximately 0.3 gig of ram. I could easily need to run 40+ instances simultaneously and thus will exceed the typical motherboard 8 gig limit. I am now becoming very interested in Linux. However, I do also have a Vista Ultimate question for those with this experience. - Can you easily dual boot Vista Ultimate? I'd like to boot in 64 bit mode for running my topology program and in 32 bit mode to run various canned applications that I already own. I'm betting someone in here knows the slickest way to boot in Vista 32, Vista 64, Linux, etc. Using Partition Magic and renaming the partitions seems clunky ... but I have never done it. Maybe a Boot Magic program? Any suggestions along these lines folks? Thanks again for any help received. -- Tom |
#10
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Building a Desktop Number Cruncher
Tom wrote:
On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 10:27:30 +0100, "GT" wrote: "Tom" wrote in message .. . I want to build a good desk top number cruncher. Primary usage is a C based program that performs the mathmatical calculations used to map out a topology of various parameters. I do not need high end graphics. Is a motherboard such as the ASUS P5K3 Delux a good choice? Before answering any of the other points in your post. Is the number crunching software multithreaded? If it is written in C, then I would suspect not, so multiple cores etc is a waste of time! Yes, it is multi-threaded. The reason I mentioned the program type was so that others would realize I was not building a gaming rig or running a canned application that required a specific operating system. BTW ... my current favorite book on this topic is Sybex's "C# Network Programming" by Richard Blum. Even though it is based on C# and not C++. The program uses double precision predominately. Thus it takes two clock cycles to move a single value. I have zero 64 bit experience, but simply moving values in one clock cycle should drastically improve the speed. To run a single thread requires about 0.7 gig of ram including the full buffering of raw data. A single 2.4 GHz machine requires about 10 hours per window year. Thus a 4 year moving and dynamically optimized window requires 40 hours each time you move the window. I'm wanting to build a 4 core system in the $2,000 to $3,500 range and make smart choices on operating system and components. My guess is that such a system can reduce my current machine's topology 40 hour run times down to about 4 hours. Do I need more than 8 gig of ram for a 4 core system when running my topology program? No. I do not know if there is a time penalty for allowing each thread on each core to share the same buffered raw data. If there is a time penalty ... each core could independently buffer the same data. Certainly the number of threads and cores directly impacts the performance of topology type work. Two gigs of ram would be sufficient for four threads if no data buffer sharing penalty exists. My question about addressing up to 128 gig with a 64 bit operating system is not just a hardware curiosity issue. In the future I want to run multiple instances of my program in real time data acquisition mode. Each instance will need approximately 0.3 gig of ram. I could easily need to run 40+ instances simultaneously and thus will exceed the typical motherboard 8 gig limit. I am now becoming very interested in Linux. However, I do also have a Vista Ultimate question for those with this experience. - Can you easily dual boot Vista Ultimate? I'd like to boot in 64 bit mode for running my topology program and in 32 bit mode to run various canned applications that I already own. I'm betting someone in here knows the slickest way to boot in Vista 32, Vista 64, Linux, etc. Using Partition Magic and renaming the partitions seems clunky ... but I have never done it. Maybe a Boot Magic program? Any suggestions along these lines folks? Thanks again for any help received. -- Tom If youre only interested in running an application, there is no need for all the extra guff in vista, it would merely consume useful resources and slow things down. A single program will see more resources and run a bit better under win if you use winsolo. NT |
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