Asus M2A-VM: Would a dedicated video card be an improvement?

Igor wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jun 2008 23:56:30 -0700 (PDT), "larry moe 'n curly"
wrote:

I forgot to mention that my EVGA FX-5200 AGP card with the blown
capacitors was used in an Asus Asrock mobo, and that mobo also has
some blown some capacitors (Ltec brand, but the Japanese ones on it
are fine).

How hard do you push your hardware? I've never had anything like this
happen to me.

Capacitors can fail, from poor chemical composition. Or from excessive
heating. Years ago, millions upon millions of bad capacitors were
manufactured, where the chemistry was wrong. The card itself,
may not have been pushed at all, and yet the capacitors still fail.

http://www.badcaps.net/images/caps/kt7/image004.png

Paul

'Igor' wrote:
I forgot to mention that my EVGA FX-5200 AGP card with the blown
capacitors was used in an Asus Asrock mobo, and that mobo also has
some blown some capacitors (Ltec brand, but the Japanese ones on it
are fine).

How hard do you push your hardware? I've never had anything like this
happen to me
_____

The capacitors that go bad in PCs are usually electrolytic, that is, a
liquid is used to help form the dielectric. When the capacitor gets too
hot, the liquid expands and pops the seal, destroying the capacitor (and
perhaps releasing gunk.)

There are two main reasons for this over-heating related failure. The
environment is too hot and/or the ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance) is too
high (and the capacitor generates too much internal heat. The ESR may be
too high because a cheaper, higher ESR, capacitor was used or because of a
manufacturing fault (quite a few years ago a supplier of electrolytic fluid
sold 'faked' electrolytic fluid that did not meet required standards; many
capacitor manufacturers were affected and lots of PCs began to suffer failed
capacitors.)

And it can be that the electrolytic capacitors have just exceeded their
useful lifetime, and have begun to fail (for example, the ESR can rise with
age.)

Here's a technical discussion:
http://www.illinoiscapacitor.com/upl...18FF09455A.pdf

Phil. Weldon

"Igor" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 27 Jun 2008 23:56:30 -0700 (PDT), "larry moe 'n curly"
wrote:

I forgot to mention that my EVGA FX-5200 AGP card with the blown
capacitors was used in an Asus Asrock mobo, and that mobo also has
some blown some capacitors (Ltec brand, but the Japanese ones on it
are fine).

How hard do you push your hardware? I've never had anything like this
happen to me.

On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 12:59:14 -0400, Paul wrote:

Capacitors can fail, from poor chemical composition.

I wouldn't have expected this to be a problem in the new millenium.
Think about how many devices in your home use capacitors; do they have
a habit of blowing up on you? Extremely old capacitors, fine, some of
them may need to be replaced, but the ones the OP was talking about
can't be more than 5 years old.

Or from excessive
heating.

Excessive heating from what? Pushing your computer too hard has the
nasty side-effect of overheating your computer, which is why cooling
solutions for gamers/overclockers has practically become an industry
onto itself. Overheating obviously damages components or makes them
age prematurely.

I wonder if the OP is a gamer? I wonder if he overclocks his hardware?
Because I swear I never hear of this sort of thing happening to people
who run their computers "by the book," and it's certainly never
happened to me with any of the 4 PCs I've owned over the last 12
years.

Years ago, millions upon millions of bad capacitors were
manufactured, where the chemistry was wrong.

But like you say, that was *years* ago. How old is the OP's card? 4 or
5 years old, tops? You think capacitor manufacturers still haven't
figured these issues out?

I'm not telling, I'm asking, as I can't claim to have studied the
matter in depth, but it doesn't jibe with anything I've seen in real
life and I've certainly been in environments where I've seen a lot of
computers in use.

Going by the horror stories, you'd think PCs were incredibly unstable,
with a major catastrophe always lurking around the bend. In reality,
PC hardware, even the low-end stuff, is very reliable. If that weren't
the case, we as a society would be in serious trouble, considering how
dependent we've become on this technology. I suspect it's no
coincidence that many of these horror stories emanate from the extreme
gamer/overclocker crowd.

On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 14:22:50 -0400, "Phil Weldon"
wrote:

The
environment is too hot snip

Which would be consistent with someone pushing their hardware too
hard.

Igor wrote:


But like you say, that was *years* ago. How old is the OP's card? 4 or
5 years old, tops? You think capacitor manufacturers still haven't
figured these issues out?

I'm not telling, I'm asking, as I can't claim to have studied the
matter in depth, but it doesn't jibe with anything I've seen in real
life and I've certainly been in environments where I've seen a lot of
computers in use.

Going by the horror stories, you'd think PCs were incredibly unstable,
with a major catastrophe always lurking around the bend. In reality,
PC hardware, even the low-end stuff, is very reliable. If that weren't
the case, we as a society would be in serious trouble, considering how
dependent we've become on this technology. I suspect it's no
coincidence that many of these horror stories emanate from the extreme
gamer/overclocker crowd.


There are articles about it. Someone stole a formula for electrolyte,
and didn't get the entire recipe. The electrolyte was used to make
a lot of inferior capacitors, and some are failing to this day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

Paul

In the end, I've decided to go with a Corsair 4 GB RAM kit, the E-VGA
GF 7200 card, and a different motherboard, the ECS A770M-A:
http://www.legitreviews.com/article/608/12/

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions.

On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 18:47:30 -0400, Paul wrote:

There are articles about it. Someone stole a formula for electrolyte,
and didn't get the entire recipe. The electrolyte was used to make
a lot of inferior capacitors, and some are failing to this day.

I'll check out the Wikipedia article you posted. Have these capacitors
at least been removed from the market, or are some companies still
making them?

Igor wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 18:47:30 -0400, Paul wrote:

There are articles about it. Someone stole a formula for electrolyte,
and didn't get the entire recipe. The electrolyte was used to make
a lot of inferior capacitors, and some are failing to this day.

I'll check out the Wikipedia article you posted. Have these capacitors
at least been removed from the market, or are some companies still
making them?

You'll notice, at least some motherboards circumvent the issue,
by using solid electrolyte capacitors, to take the place of the
other type. I suppose it is a way of visually distancing themselves,
from the previous fiasco.

Since it is possible for companies to counterfeit the product of
others, I don't think there is any way to guarantee it would not
happen again. And counterfeiting in electronics is a problem.
Just last year, I saw a couple of reports, when I was looking for
something else, of companies buying counterfeits in large quantity,
and then discovering they got less-performing fakes. So even if
legitimate companies have discovered their error and corrected it,
there are other ways for bad components to make their way into
the supply chain.

Paul

'Igor' wrote:
The
environment is too hot snip

Which would be consistent with someone pushing their hardware too
hard.
_____

"...someone pushing their equipment too hard" isn't really the point. In
general, computer users who try for maximum performance have LOWER internal
system temperatures because they pay more attention to cooling and
ventilation. No matter HOW hard you push a PC, adequate ventilation will
keep the capacitor environment safe for low ESR, quality capacitors. A PC
is not an internal combustion engine that has lots of moving parts and
bearings and that DEPENDS on high temperatures for increased performance.

Phil Weldon

"Igor" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 14:22:50 -0400, "Phil Weldon"
wrote:

The
environment is too hot snip

Which would be consistent with someone pushing their hardware too
hard.

| http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/...ProductID=2758

Gigabyte has no Vcore control, I avoid since 8-06. AMD cpu
`s have too high Vcores, e.g. @ default speeds, LE1620 can
work @1.025v, Sempron 1.6 @0.95v, Barton 1.8 @1.35v.
If users don't reduce Vcore, cpu`s will be too hot & waste
electricity & aircon.
@1.025v, LE1620 already reaches 45ºC during idle if 690G
north bridge's incredible heat is fanned upward toward cpu.
@1.25v, cpu may get hot enough to jam ( my applebred jams
by 49ºC ).