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#1
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Did low voltage cause the pc to fail?
G'day from a long way away....
I am struggling with an argument about a couple of damaged home computers and I was wondering if anyone can help???? The switchboard for a suburban house was replaced in November 2003. Since February 03 various appliances in the house have failed, including three pcs. The owners believe that lower than stat limits voltage into the residence caused the failure. Since the switchboard was replaced the problems have stopped. Their electrician said that the switchboard was a 30 year old porcelain-fused model and was burning out on the busbar and the circuits on the board were overloaded with too many appliances. My question to you, if you would be so kind...."What chance is there that the slightly under supply of grid voltage would severely damage pcs, or, is the pc damage more likely to be as a result of the arcing at the switchboard?" Greg, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia |
#2
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We would need to know the nature of the PC failure. The only component of
the PC that could possibly fail due to a mains power problem is the power supply, because its output is regulated -- it either outputs the right voltages at full current, or shuts itself off completely. It might over-exert itself stepping up a lower-than-normal input voltage... Also, power cutting on and off repeatedly (a lot of "flickering") might damage the power supply or even, I suppose, a disk drive or something. Did that happen? |
#3
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"Greg" wrote in message om... G'day from a long way away.... I am struggling with an argument about a couple of damaged home computers and I was wondering if anyone can help???? The switchboard for a suburban house was replaced in November 2003. Since February 03 various appliances in the house have failed, including three pcs. The owners believe that lower than stat limits voltage into the residence caused the failure. Since the switchboard was replaced the problems have stopped. Their electrician said that the switchboard was a 30 year old porcelain-fused model and was burning out on the busbar and the circuits on the board were overloaded with too many appliances. My question to you, if you would be so kind...."What chance is there that the slightly under supply of grid voltage would severely damage pcs, or, is the pc damage more likely to be as a result of the arcing at the switchboard?" Greg, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia Either undervoltage or arcing can damage equipment. |
#4
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Unervoltage - also known as a brownout - does not damage electronics.
Unfortunately too many take what they learned about motors and expolate that to knowledge about electronics. One must first learn basic concept before making assumptions such as low voltage will damage a computer. The Intel specs are quite bluntly clear about this. AC mains voltage can drop so low that incandescent bulbs are at less than 40% intensity. Even at that low voltage, a computer with a full load of peripherals must power up and run normally. Where is the damage? It only exists in a world where people don't learn simple technologies nor read manufacturer numerical specs. What is a shutdown? Power is removed. Electrolytic capacitors slowly discharge. The computer suffers a brownout - diminished voltage. So the computer is damaged? Of course not. Computer must work just fine until voltage becomes too low - and then it must switch to a no more output mode. IOW a shutdown is a brownout that eventually becomes a blackout. But if brownouts - low voltage - cause hardware damage, then a shutdown will also damage hardware. Can computers be damaged by a brownout? Well if it is, then the computer fails to mean numerous industry standards and defacto standards that have exists longer than most every reader here. The answer to the OPs question is found in those specs. If undervoltage damages the electronics, then the human knows exactly what the reason for failure was - the human. "James Sweet" wrote in message . .. "Greg" wrote in message om... ... My question to you, if you would be so kind...."What chance is there that the slightly under supply of grid voltage would severely damage pcs, or, is the pc damage more likely to be as a result of the arcing at the switchboard?" Greg, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia Either undervoltage or arcing can damage equipment. |
#5
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"w_tom" wrote in message om... Unervoltage - also known as a brownout - does not damage electronics. Unfortunately too many take what they learned about motors and expolate that to knowledge about electronics. One must first learn basic concept before making assumptions such as low voltage will damage a computer. The Intel specs are quite bluntly clear about this. AC mains voltage can drop so low that incandescent bulbs are at less than 40% intensity. Even at that low voltage, a computer with a full load of peripherals must power up and run normally. Where is the damage? It only exists in a world where people don't learn simple technologies nor read manufacturer numerical specs. Intel doesn't make PC power supplies. Sometimes we don't know *who* makes them. I wouldn't put it past them to have something that would fail (or at least blow a fuse) when subjected to undervoltage. After all, undervoltage requires the switching power supply to draw *more* current (as it gets less voltage). |
#6
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(w_tom) writes: Unervoltage - also known as a brownout - does not damage electronics. Unfortunately too many take what they learned about motors and expolate that to knowledge about electronics. One must first learn basic concept before making assumptions such as low voltage will damage a computer. In an ideal world this would be so. In the real World, it's quite possible that brownouts can cause switchmode power supplies to fail. --- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Mirror: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/ Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/REPAIR/ +Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/lasersam.htm | Mirror Sites: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/REPAIR/F_mirror.html Note: These links are hopefully temporary until we can sort out the excessive traffic on Repairfaq.org. Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header is ignored. To contact me, please use the feedback form on the S.E.R FAQ Web sites. The Intel specs are quite bluntly clear about this. AC mains voltage can drop so low that incandescent bulbs are at less than 40% intensity. Even at that low voltage, a computer with a full load of peripherals must power up and run normally. Where is the damage? It only exists in a world where people don't learn simple technologies nor read manufacturer numerical specs. What is a shutdown? Power is removed. Electrolytic capacitors slowly discharge. The computer suffers a brownout - diminished voltage. So the computer is damaged? Of course not. Computer must work just fine until voltage becomes too low - and then it must switch to a no more output mode. IOW a shutdown is a brownout that eventually becomes a blackout. But if brownouts - low voltage - cause hardware damage, then a shutdown will also damage hardware. Can computers be damaged by a brownout? Well if it is, then the computer fails to mean numerous industry standards and defacto standards that have exists longer than most every reader here. The answer to the OPs question is found in those specs. If undervoltage damages the electronics, then the human knows exactly what the reason for failure was - the human. "James Sweet" wrote in message . .. "Greg" wrote in message om... ... My question to you, if you would be so kind...."What chance is there that the slightly under supply of grid voltage would severely damage pcs, or, is the pc damage more likely to be as a result of the arcing at the switchboard?" Greg, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia Either undervoltage or arcing can damage equipment. |
#7
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In the real world, only those with a bean counter mentality
have power supplies damaged by brownouts. When a power supply is damaged by a brownout, then the reason for failure is directly traceable to a human who failed to learn basic technology. Again - what is a power down or shutdown? A brownout that eventually becomes a blackout. If brownouts damage electronics, then so does turning the power off. This alone is a damning fact. Brownouts do not damage properly constructed electronics. Shutdown also does not damage those electronics. Even in those cited links, I find no reference to brownouts causing electronics damage. The CBEMA specifically states that all equipment must not be damaged by low volts. They and other industry standards - including the computer industry standard originally created by Intel - are quite blunt about this. Brownouts don't cause electronics damage. Stated bluntly even in specs. Intel defines how computer power supplies must operate. IBM, Dell, AMD, and a long list of other responsible manufacturers also demand same standards be met. But this is old technology - older than most lurkers have even existed. However many bean counters buy 'dumped into North America' power supplies to cut costs. Power supplies that violate basic Intel requirements. Then those silly bean counter mentalities try to blame others; then claim brownouts damage electronics. Where is the logic in that? Its called corruption. Numerous industry standards for ATX power supplies were the same defacto standards of 30+ years ago. Such defective supplies are not found in brand name computers. Dumping only works at great profit to the Asian manufacturer when a computer assembler does not even have basic electrical knowledge - buys power supplies on price rather than upon technical specifications. If anyone says that a brownout can damage properly designed electronics, then we have a benchmark for a bean counter mentality masking as technically knowledgeable. Those who think otherwise are then invited to explain how the individual components inside the power supply fail due to brownout. That's right. I design at the component level - not just rack and stack black boxes like a computer assembler who need not have any electrical knowledge. Please feel free to describe how that electrolytic capacitor or power transistor is damaged by a brownout. One must be that knowledgeable to foolishly claim brownouts damage electronics. Sam Goldwasser wrote: (w_tom) writes: Unervoltage - also known as a brownout - does not damage electronics. Unfortunately too many take what they learned about motors and expolate that to knowledge about electronics. One must first learn basic concept before making assumptions such as low voltage will damage a computer. In an ideal world this would be so. In the real World, it's quite possible that brownouts can cause switchmode power supplies to fail. --- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Mirror: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/ Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/REPAIR/ +Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/lasersam.htm | Mirror Sites: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/REPAIR/F_mirror.html Note: These links are hopefully temporary until we can sort out the excessive traffic on Repairfaq.org. |
#8
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That's all good and nice reasoning which the designer
already considered when he designed a power supply that is not damaged by brownouts. There is even a circuit inside the supply that cuts off power IF the supply cannot maintain required output voltages. Same circuit also sends a signal to motherboard. Again, no damage to hardware. Intel does not make power supplies? Underwriters Laboratory - UL - does not make anything. Therefore UL standards don't exist either? If a computer power supply is damaged by the brownout, then the brownout is not a reason for failure. That failure is directly traceable to the human who typically buys on price rather than first learn basic electricity concepts. If the power supply does not come with written specs - things they actually claim to do - then one should assume the worst. These same 'discount' power supplies are sold to computer assemblers who would blame the brownout rather than blame themselves. Brownouts do not damage properly constructed power supplies. Unfortunately those supplies cost more money. Bean counter mentalities fear spending money. I bought my power supply from some guy wearing a black trench coat and it failed? That proves brownouts cause computer damage? Unfortunately too many computer assemblers who don't even have basic electrical knowledge use that reasoning. A power supplies damaged by a brownout was defective the minute it was purchased. "Michael A. Covington" wrote: Intel doesn't make PC power supplies. Sometimes we don't know *who* makes them. I wouldn't put it past them to have something that would fail (or at least blow a fuse) when subjected to undervoltage. After all, undervoltage requires the switching power supply to draw *more* current (as it gets less voltage). |
#9
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"w_tom" wrote in message om... The Intel specs are quite bluntly clear about this. And, of course, every PC ever produced anywhere in the world IS by definition completely, utterly, and totally compliant with Intel's specs, right? :-) :-) :-) Ah, to live in such a world.... Bob M. |
#10
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"w_tom" wrote in message ... That's all good and nice reasoning which the designer already considered when he designed a power supply that is not damaged by brownouts. Or so you hope. One of the things I used to do (in a past life, but for my current employer) was to supervise the environmental, etc. qualification testing of new products. Do you think we never EVER found problems with power supply design that showed up in the AC line compatibility testing? It would be a truly wonderful world in which everything was designed as it should be, in which everything was actually BUILT per those designs, and in which the components that went into that construction never ever had any sort of problem of their own. Just as soon as you find that world, you let us know. Intel does not make power supplies? Underwriters Laboratory - UL - does not make anything. Therefore UL standards don't exist either? Both Intel-generated specifications exist, and UL standards exist. And so, according to you, everything ever designed and built automatically complies with those standards? Hallelujah! I can call down to the test lab right now, and tell those guys to take it easy! There's nothing more for them to do!!!! If a computer power supply is damaged by the brownout, then the brownout is not a reason for failure. That failure is directly traceable to the human who typically buys on price rather than first learn basic electricity concepts. If the power supply does not come with written specs - things they actually claim to do First, it's hardly reasonable to expect anyone who buys a power supply to be sufficiently educated in power supply design so as to recognize a good design or a bad one at first glance. (Hey, if they're THAT good, they should be designing and building their OWN, and then I know several places that will likely want to hire them!) Second - you again show an awful lot of faith in the mere presence of "written specs." Many aren't worth the paper they're printed on. blame themselves. Brownouts do not damage properly constructed power supplies... ....as long as they were properly designed AND constructed, built from perfect components, and have suffered absolutely no ill effects due to age, electrical or mechanical stress, etc., since being built. By this same sort of reasoning, I should be able to claim that NOTHING which is "properly designed and built" should ever fail. Once again, the reliability guys will be SO glad to hear that... Bob M. |
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