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Did low voltage cause the pc to fail?



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 19th 04, 02:38 AM
Greg
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Default Did low voltage cause the pc to fail?

G'day from a long way away....

I am struggling with an argument about a couple of damaged home
computers and I was wondering if anyone can help????

The switchboard for a suburban house was replaced in November 2003.
Since February 03 various appliances in the house have failed,
including three pcs. The owners believe that lower than stat limits
voltage into the residence caused the failure. Since the switchboard
was replaced the problems have stopped.

Their electrician said that the switchboard was a 30 year old
porcelain-fused model and was burning out on the busbar and the
circuits on the board were overloaded with too many appliances.

My question to you, if you would be so kind...."What chance is there
that the slightly under supply of grid voltage would severely damage
pcs, or, is the pc damage more likely to be as a result of the arcing
at the switchboard?"

Greg,
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
  #2  
Old August 19th 04, 02:48 AM
Michael A. Covington
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We would need to know the nature of the PC failure. The only component of
the PC that could possibly fail due to a mains power problem is the power
supply, because its output is regulated -- it either outputs the right
voltages at full current, or shuts itself off completely.

It might over-exert itself stepping up a lower-than-normal input voltage...

Also, power cutting on and off repeatedly (a lot of "flickering") might
damage the power supply or even, I suppose, a disk drive or something. Did
that happen?


  #3  
Old August 19th 04, 03:41 AM
James Sweet
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"Greg" wrote in message
om...
G'day from a long way away....

I am struggling with an argument about a couple of damaged home
computers and I was wondering if anyone can help????

The switchboard for a suburban house was replaced in November 2003.
Since February 03 various appliances in the house have failed,
including three pcs. The owners believe that lower than stat limits
voltage into the residence caused the failure. Since the switchboard
was replaced the problems have stopped.

Their electrician said that the switchboard was a 30 year old
porcelain-fused model and was burning out on the busbar and the
circuits on the board were overloaded with too many appliances.

My question to you, if you would be so kind...."What chance is there
that the slightly under supply of grid voltage would severely damage
pcs, or, is the pc damage more likely to be as a result of the arcing
at the switchboard?"

Greg,
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia



Either undervoltage or arcing can damage equipment.


  #4  
Old August 19th 04, 04:11 PM
w_tom
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Unervoltage - also known as a brownout - does not damage electronics.
Unfortunately too many take what they learned about motors and
expolate that to knowledge about electronics. One must first learn
basic concept before making assumptions such as low voltage will
damage a computer.

The Intel specs are quite bluntly clear about this. AC mains
voltage can drop so low that incandescent bulbs are at less than 40%
intensity. Even at that low voltage, a computer with a full load of
peripherals must power up and run normally. Where is the damage? It
only exists in a world where people don't learn simple technologies
nor read manufacturer numerical specs.

What is a shutdown? Power is removed. Electrolytic capacitors
slowly discharge. The computer suffers a brownout - diminished
voltage. So the computer is damaged? Of course not. Computer must
work just fine until voltage becomes too low - and then it must switch
to a no more output mode. IOW a shutdown is a brownout that
eventually becomes a blackout. But if brownouts - low voltage - cause
hardware damage, then a shutdown will also damage hardware.

Can computers be damaged by a brownout? Well if it is, then the
computer fails to mean numerous industry standards and defacto
standards that have exists longer than most every reader here. The
answer to the OPs question is found in those specs. If undervoltage
damages the electronics, then the human knows exactly what the reason
for failure was - the human.

"James Sweet" wrote in message . ..
"Greg" wrote in message
om...
...
My question to you, if you would be so kind...."What chance is

there
that the slightly under supply of grid voltage would severely

damage
pcs, or, is the pc damage more likely to be as a result of the

arcing
at the switchboard?"

Greg,
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia



Either undervoltage or arcing can damage equipment.

  #5  
Old August 19th 04, 04:22 PM
Michael A. Covington
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Default


"w_tom" wrote in message
om...
Unervoltage - also known as a brownout - does not damage electronics.
Unfortunately too many take what they learned about motors and
expolate that to knowledge about electronics. One must first learn
basic concept before making assumptions such as low voltage will
damage a computer.

The Intel specs are quite bluntly clear about this. AC mains
voltage can drop so low that incandescent bulbs are at less than 40%
intensity. Even at that low voltage, a computer with a full load of
peripherals must power up and run normally. Where is the damage? It
only exists in a world where people don't learn simple technologies
nor read manufacturer numerical specs.


Intel doesn't make PC power supplies. Sometimes we don't know *who* makes
them. I wouldn't put it past them to have something that would fail (or at
least blow a fuse) when subjected to undervoltage.

After all, undervoltage requires the switching power supply to draw *more*
current (as it gets less voltage).


  #6  
Old August 19th 04, 04:23 PM
Sam Goldwasser
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(w_tom) writes:

Unervoltage - also known as a brownout - does not damage electronics.
Unfortunately too many take what they learned about motors and
expolate that to knowledge about electronics. One must first learn
basic concept before making assumptions such as low voltage will
damage a computer.


In an ideal world this would be so.

In the real World, it's quite possible that brownouts can cause
switchmode power supplies to fail.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Mirror:
http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Note: These links are hopefully temporary until we can sort out the excessive
traffic on Repairfaq.org.

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header is ignored.
To contact me, please use the feedback form on the S.E.R FAQ Web sites.

The Intel specs are quite bluntly clear about this. AC mains
voltage can drop so low that incandescent bulbs are at less than 40%
intensity. Even at that low voltage, a computer with a full load of
peripherals must power up and run normally. Where is the damage? It
only exists in a world where people don't learn simple technologies
nor read manufacturer numerical specs.

What is a shutdown? Power is removed. Electrolytic capacitors
slowly discharge. The computer suffers a brownout - diminished
voltage. So the computer is damaged? Of course not. Computer must
work just fine until voltage becomes too low - and then it must switch
to a no more output mode. IOW a shutdown is a brownout that
eventually becomes a blackout. But if brownouts - low voltage - cause
hardware damage, then a shutdown will also damage hardware.

Can computers be damaged by a brownout? Well if it is, then the
computer fails to mean numerous industry standards and defacto
standards that have exists longer than most every reader here. The
answer to the OPs question is found in those specs. If undervoltage
damages the electronics, then the human knows exactly what the reason
for failure was - the human.

"James Sweet" wrote in message . ..
"Greg" wrote in message
om...
...
My question to you, if you would be so kind...."What chance is

there
that the slightly under supply of grid voltage would severely

damage
pcs, or, is the pc damage more likely to be as a result of the

arcing
at the switchboard?"

Greg,
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia



Either undervoltage or arcing can damage equipment.

  #7  
Old August 19th 04, 04:49 PM
w_tom
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In the real world, only those with a bean counter mentality
have power supplies damaged by brownouts. When a power supply
is damaged by a brownout, then the reason for failure is
directly traceable to a human who failed to learn basic
technology.

Again - what is a power down or shutdown? A brownout that
eventually becomes a blackout. If brownouts damage
electronics, then so does turning the power off. This alone
is a damning fact. Brownouts do not damage properly
constructed electronics. Shutdown also does not damage those
electronics.

Even in those cited links, I find no reference to brownouts
causing electronics damage. The CBEMA specifically states
that all equipment must not be damaged by low volts. They and
other industry standards - including the computer industry
standard originally created by Intel - are quite blunt about
this. Brownouts don't cause electronics damage. Stated
bluntly even in specs.

Intel defines how computer power supplies must operate.
IBM, Dell, AMD, and a long list of other responsible
manufacturers also demand same standards be met. But this is
old technology - older than most lurkers have even existed.
However many bean counters buy 'dumped into North America'
power supplies to cut costs. Power supplies that violate
basic Intel requirements. Then those silly bean counter
mentalities try to blame others; then claim brownouts damage
electronics. Where is the logic in that? Its called
corruption.

Numerous industry standards for ATX power supplies were the
same defacto standards of 30+ years ago. Such defective
supplies are not found in brand name computers. Dumping only
works at great profit to the Asian manufacturer when a
computer assembler does not even have basic electrical
knowledge - buys power supplies on price rather than upon
technical specifications.

If anyone says that a brownout can damage properly designed
electronics, then we have a benchmark for a bean counter
mentality masking as technically knowledgeable.

Those who think otherwise are then invited to explain how
the individual components inside the power supply fail due to
brownout. That's right. I design at the component level -
not just rack and stack black boxes like a computer assembler
who need not have any electrical knowledge. Please feel free
to describe how that electrolytic capacitor or power
transistor is damaged by a brownout. One must be that
knowledgeable to foolishly claim brownouts damage electronics.


Sam Goldwasser wrote:
(w_tom) writes:
Unervoltage - also known as a brownout - does not damage
electronics. Unfortunately too many take what they learned
about motors and expolate that to knowledge about electronics.
One must first learn basic concept before making assumptions
such as low voltage will damage a computer.


In an ideal world this would be so.

In the real World, it's quite possible that brownouts can cause
switchmode power supplies to fail.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Mirror:
http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Note: These links are hopefully temporary until we can sort out the excessive
traffic on Repairfaq.org.

  #8  
Old August 19th 04, 04:51 PM
w_tom
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That's all good and nice reasoning which the designer
already considered when he designed a power supply that is not
damaged by brownouts. There is even a circuit inside the
supply that cuts off power IF the supply cannot maintain
required output voltages. Same circuit also sends a signal to
motherboard. Again, no damage to hardware.

Intel does not make power supplies? Underwriters Laboratory
- UL - does not make anything. Therefore UL standards don't
exist either?

If a computer power supply is damaged by the brownout, then
the brownout is not a reason for failure. That failure is
directly traceable to the human who typically buys on price
rather than first learn basic electricity concepts.

If the power supply does not come with written specs -
things they actually claim to do - then one should assume the
worst. These same 'discount' power supplies are sold to
computer assemblers who would blame the brownout rather than
blame themselves. Brownouts do not damage properly
constructed power supplies. Unfortunately those supplies cost
more money. Bean counter mentalities fear spending money.

I bought my power supply from some guy wearing a black
trench coat and it failed? That proves brownouts cause
computer damage? Unfortunately too many computer assemblers
who don't even have basic electrical knowledge use that
reasoning. A power supplies damaged by a brownout was
defective the minute it was purchased.

"Michael A. Covington" wrote:
Intel doesn't make PC power supplies. Sometimes we don't know
*who* makes them. I wouldn't put it past them to have something
that would fail (or at least blow a fuse) when subjected to
undervoltage.

After all, undervoltage requires the switching power supply to
draw *more* current (as it gets less voltage).

  #9  
Old August 19th 04, 07:33 PM
Bob Myers
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"w_tom" wrote in message
om...

The Intel specs are quite bluntly clear about this.


And, of course, every PC ever produced anywhere in the world
IS by definition completely, utterly, and totally compliant with
Intel's specs, right? :-) :-) :-)

Ah, to live in such a world....


Bob M.


  #10  
Old August 19th 04, 07:42 PM
Bob Myers
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"w_tom" wrote in message
...
That's all good and nice reasoning which the designer
already considered when he designed a power supply that is not
damaged by brownouts.


Or so you hope.

One of the things I used to do (in a past life, but for my
current employer) was to supervise the environmental, etc.
qualification testing of new products. Do you think we
never EVER found problems with power supply design
that showed up in the AC line compatibility testing?

It would be a truly wonderful world in which everything
was designed as it should be, in which everything was
actually BUILT per those designs, and in which the
components that went into that construction never ever
had any sort of problem of their own. Just as soon as
you find that world, you let us know.

Intel does not make power supplies? Underwriters Laboratory
- UL - does not make anything. Therefore UL standards don't
exist either?


Both Intel-generated specifications exist, and UL standards
exist. And so, according to you, everything ever
designed and built automatically complies with those
standards? Hallelujah! I can call down to the test lab
right now, and tell those guys to take it easy! There's
nothing more for them to do!!!!

If a computer power supply is damaged by the brownout, then
the brownout is not a reason for failure. That failure is
directly traceable to the human who typically buys on price
rather than first learn basic electricity concepts.

If the power supply does not come with written specs -
things they actually claim to do


First, it's hardly reasonable to expect anyone who buys
a power supply to be sufficiently educated in power
supply design so as to recognize a good design or a bad
one at first glance. (Hey, if they're THAT good, they should
be designing and building their OWN, and then I know several
places that will likely want to hire them!) Second - you again
show an awful lot of faith in the mere presence of "written
specs." Many aren't worth the paper they're printed on.


blame themselves. Brownouts do not damage properly
constructed power supplies...


....as long as they were properly designed AND
constructed, built from perfect components, and have
suffered absolutely no ill effects due to age, electrical
or mechanical stress, etc., since being built. By this same
sort of reasoning, I should be able to claim that NOTHING
which is "properly designed and built" should ever fail. Once
again, the reliability guys will be SO glad to hear that...


Bob M.


 




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