My new UPS says using a power strip voids the warranty

What are you supposed to use if you need more than 3 UPS outlets?

On 29/06/2011 2:01 AM, Metspitzer wrote:
What are you supposed to use if you need more than 3 UPS outlets?

Get a second UPS is my best guess.

Krypsis

On Tue, 28 Jun 2011 12:01:33 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

What are you supposed to use if you need more than 3 UPS outlets?

Different models come with more outlets. Select one based on your
needs.

On Tue, 28 Jun 2011 12:01:33 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

What are you supposed to use if you need more than 3 UPS outlets?
To original poster:
Does it say no surge protector, or does it say no multiple outlets.

Also, while it might be reasonable to disallow US$10000 or more
insurance for surge protection/isolation of the UPS, I don't
think it is reasonable to void a warranty on that the UPS will
function as a UPS.

On Tue, 28 Jun 2011 12:01:33 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

What are you supposed to use if you need more than 3 UPS outlets?

I just called the UPS tech support and he says.........you can use a
multi outlet strip as long as it is not a surge protector. I use a
strip so I can turn off the speakers and the monitor with one switch.

On Tue, 28 Jun 2011 12:38:21 -0400, Mark F
wrote:

On Tue, 28 Jun 2011 12:01:33 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

What are you supposed to use if you need more than 3 UPS outlets?
To original poster:
Does it say no surge protector, or does it say no multiple outlets.

Also, while it might be reasonable to disallow US$10000 or more
insurance for surge protection/isolation of the UPS, I don't
think it is reasonable to void a warranty on that the UPS will
function as a UPS.

The instructions say............The warranty prohibits the use of
extension cords, outlet strips and surge strips.

On Tue, 28 Jun 2011 12:49:09 -0400, Metspitzer rearranged some electrons
to say:

On Tue, 28 Jun 2011 12:38:21 -0400, Mark F wrote:

On Tue, 28 Jun 2011 12:01:33 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

What are you supposed to use if you need more than 3 UPS outlets?
To original poster:
Does it say no surge protector, or does it say no multiple outlets.

Also, while it might be reasonable to disallow US$10000 or more
insurance for surge protection/isolation of the UPS, I don't think it is
reasonable to void a warranty on that the UPS will function as a UPS.

The instructions say............The warranty prohibits the use of
extension cords, outlet strips and surge strips.

It is to prevent idiots from overloading the UPS by plugging in more
loads than it can handle.

On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 00:02:23 +0000 (UTC), david
wrote:

On Tue, 28 Jun 2011 12:49:09 -0400, Metspitzer rearranged some electrons
to say:

On Tue, 28 Jun 2011 12:38:21 -0400, Mark F wrote:

On Tue, 28 Jun 2011 12:01:33 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

What are you supposed to use if you need more than 3 UPS outlets?
To original poster:
Does it say no surge protector, or does it say no multiple outlets.

Also, while it might be reasonable to disallow US$10000 or more
insurance for surge protection/isolation of the UPS, I don't think it is
reasonable to void a warranty on that the UPS will function as a UPS.

The instructions say............The warranty prohibits the use of
extension cords, outlet strips and surge strips.

It is to prevent idiots from overloading the UPS by plugging in more
loads than it can handle.

Then what is the circuit breaker in the back for? It seems
unreasonable to have a 1500 VA power supply and can not have a modem
100~VA, router 50~VA, phone~10 VA, computer~600 VA, monitor~100 VA and
desk~60 VA lamp. ~ 920 VA

Although the instructions are vague, I think the restriction must be
for the supply power for the UPS and not for the down stream.

After reading up on the UPS warranty and a Belkin power strip
warranty, the very large protection insurance figure has fine print
that says it is for fair market value and not replacement cost. Repair
or replace or fair market value.

In message someone claiming
to be Metspitzer typed:

Then what is the circuit breaker in the back for?

There are overloads and then there are overloads.

Some UPSes will trip in the event of a short, but won't otherwise trip
their breaker immediately in an overload condition and instead will just
burn through the battery at an incredible rate until the whole thing
overheats slightly (or at least that's how the only cheap "off-brand"
UPS I've ever bought died)

It seems
unreasonable to have a 1500 VA power supply and can not have a modem
100~VA, router 50~VA, phone~10 VA, computer~600 VA, monitor~100 VA and
desk~60 VA lamp. ~ 920 VA

Although the instructions are vague, I think the restriction must be
for the supply power for the UPS and not for the down stream.

It could be either.

Downstream, UPSes often don't put out a proper sine wave and instead use
a stepped square wave (or worse, a square wave or pulse system), this
can occasionally trigger downstream surge protectors to trip during an
outage.

Upstream, one possible problem is that they may have found some surge
protectors disconnect the ground (similar to unplugging the UPS, which
is a no-no unless you absolutely can't avoid it).

After reading up on the UPS warranty and a Belkin power strip
warranty, the very large protection insurance figure has fine print
that says it is for fair market value and not replacement cost. Repair
or replace or fair market value.

In other words, it's basically worthless anyway since "fair market
value" on computer equipment tends to be a tiny fraction of replacement
cost.

Metspitzer wrote:

What are you supposed to use if you need more than 3 UPS outlets?

That's because you could be connecting loads to the UPS outlets and to
the power strip connected to the UPS. That means you have a 6-foot or
longer distance between these loads depending on how long is the cord to
the power strip and how long are the power cords from the power strip to
the loads. You could easily end up with 12 feet between the load and
the UPS. This distance can generate high potential difference during a
spike, like for a lightning strike. This wouldn't be a problem if the
devices were independently connected to the power strip and UPS except
that typically there are connections between the devices, like a printer
with its power coming from the power strip and connect to the system
case connected to the UPS. The time differential in the spikes reaching
the devices along with the impedance of the power strip's cord and the
devices cord connected to it result in differential of several hundred
volts, if not more.

A UPS is not necessarily a surge protector and most UPS have louse surge
protection that proclaim they have it. You want all devices connected
upstream of the UPS to originate their power source from the UPS. In
your case, use ONE power strip connected to the UPS, disconnect all
devices currently connected to the UPS, and connect ALL devices to the
power strip. UPS (with nothing but the power strip connected to it),
then the power strip, and then ALL devices connected to the power strip.
Keep them all upstream and forking their power from the same point in
the power stream. This would keep your gear safe but not necessarily
your UPS.

I've seen folks using surge protectors to which their system case is
connected but they connect the phone line to the data/fax modem from a
wall outlet. The surge may not come up the power cord to the system
case but it instead comes up the phone line. That's why you see surge
protectors that not only have 120VAC surge protected outlets but also
RJ-45 (network) and RJ-11 (phone) surge protected jacks as well. The
surge protection has to be at the same origination point. That's why a
whole-house surge protector makes more sense than buying end-point surge
protectors. Alas, renters (apt or homes) don't get a choice of
installing a surge protector at their electrical service entry point.

Since surge protectors (well, most of the consumer-grade stuff you see
being sold to users) work by shorting the spike from hot-neutral to
ground, this means the spike (if it leaves the UPS in the first place)
is going to get sent back into the UPS. Some surge protectors are surge
absorbers: they don't send the spike back to the source but instead
absorb it (e.g., http://www.zerosurge.com/residential.cfm). That would
be the safest surge protector you could put upstream of a UPS but they
cost a lot more.

If you don't consider your UPS capable of reasonable surge protection
(and which can test itself to ensure it is still a viable protector)
then you can put one before the UPS (with the UPS as its only load).
After all, if you have a crappy UPS that won't handle surges, why aren't
you trying to protect it, too? However, that won't resolve your problem
of not having enough outlets in the UPS. If you do get another UPS to
give you more outlets, make sure it gets plugged into the same power
source (i.e., into the same wall outlet) and not another outlet some 10
feet away, or more, from the outlet for the other UPS. Again, the
difference in distance between the outlets can produce several hundred
volts different in potential due to impedance at the high frequency for
a spike. You need to keep your interconnected devices upstream of the
same power source.

There's something else about hooking up a surge protector after a UPS
but I can't remember it right now. It probably has to do with the
typical stepped output of a consumer-grade UPS (instead of true
sinusoidal) going to an upstream surge protector/suppressor. The
switched power supply in a computer can handle a stepped input. Power
bricks or adapters will heat up more with stepped input than when
connected to a wall outlet which has sinusoidal output. Surge
protectors getting stepped power input can overheat (I've heard they
could burn up but never seen it). You can damage the UPS since they
don't like MOVs, quick-blow resettable fuses sending spikes back down
the ground line. They don't like the filtering exhibited by surge
suppressors on their output as it interferes with filtering by the UPS.

So I'm thinking there could be surge protectors that expect to get
sinusoidal input power that might not behave correctly if they are fed
stepped input power. The story, I think, is the surge protector will
overheat when fed stepped power but that could be urban legend. I have
seen some mention that using a surge protector on the output side of a
UPS can screw up the sensing of output power by the UPS on its outlets.
Also, spikes have a sharp edge which generates a transient high voltage
which the MOVs in cheap surge protectors don't like since they breakdown
over time by burning out a portion of themselves (dielectric breakdown)
to shunt the spike. Resettable components also don't like repeated
stressing. Remember that your UPS is probably generating a stepped
output and that means it has spikes at every step. That's why surge
suppressors are better (well, maybe) when being fed stepped versus
sinusoidal power. When the UPS is not active, it shunts the mains to
its outlets which means the attached devices are getting sinusoidal
power. When the UPS has to kick it, it will produce a stepped wave
output. The stepped output with its steep rise and fall at each spike
generates harmonics whose amplitudes are higher than the stepped output
(and higher than the sinusoidal power) which can exceed the trip point
of the suppressor. If it doesn't trip, some of that harmonic energy
ends up overheating the suppressor instead of going to your devices.
You don't want the suppressor eating energy because your devices aren't
getting it while the battery in the UPS drains faster. Also, with
filtering and sensing on the outputs of the UPS to regulate its output
power, and with a surge protetor upstream of the UPS outlet, the device
could get rebooted or dropped in a power failure. The UPS sees an
anomaly on its output and disconnects power to that outlet to protect
itself. A lot depends on the quality of the UPS, what inbound
protections it has for itself, what outbound filtering it employes, and
how it protects itself from anomalies on its outputs.

There is also the [deliberate] marketing confusion brought about by
calling surge protectors and surge suppressors the same. Surge
protectors work by fuses (quick-blow or MOVs) that short a spike to
ground hoping it doesn't make it upstream to the connected equipment.
Surge suppressors (ex., APC SurgeArrest) are a better quality class of
product and why you see them rated with a clamping voltage. Sometimes
it's called let-through voltage but it's not really the same thing as
clamping voltage. Let-through voltage is the total voltage allowed
across the entire unit and the main power line during an over-voltage
event. Clamping is the voltage level at which the device will begin to
take preventative action. Marketing tends to dump "protector" on both
these protectors and suppressors. If you bought some cheapie $20 surge
protector then its a multi-outlet adapter with fuse-style protection
(which is slow to react and self-destructive but you won't know when it
eventually provides no protection). Suppressors will note their
clamping voltage(s) along with how many joules of surge they can
suppress. Both still send the spike back along the ground line versus a
surge absorber.

Your computer is more susceptible to over-voltage conditions than, say,
your television. Most surge protectors are NOT geared towards computer
equipment. Your TV can be well protected by a suppressor with a higher
clamping voltage than used for your computer. The stuff you buy in
stores is okay for your stereo and TV but not for your computer. Even
some of the crap with "computer" marked on it really aren't for
computers. They just want to tap into that market for more revenue as
they know extremely few consumers ever sue them for marketing an
inappropriate suppressor (and could be just a cheapie protector).

Since your goal is to increase the number of outlets available, plug a
power *extension* or power strip (no surge protection, suppression, or
absorption) into the UPS. It is the ONLY thing plugged into your UPS.
All devices plug into the power extender (a cord with a box having
multiple outlets and with or without a switch). Makes sure all
interconnections between your devices is powered upstream of that power
extender. You're basically extending the wiring from circuitry inside
the UPS to the outlet on its case EXCEPT you are putting more than one
load on the same outlet on the UPS. Each outlet on the UPS should be
rated for maximum power load. You could easily exceed that by
connecting multiple devices to the same power strip connected to one UPS
outlet. If you connect multiple power strips to multiple outlets on the
UPS then you run into that impedance thing again versus the short
distance inside the UPS and probably with some filtering close to the
outlets on the UPS.

It's probably a good bet that with only 3 outlets on the UPS that you
have already been a bad boy and been connecting the other non-UPS'ed
devices into wall outlets or power strips or protectors connected to
wall outlets. With multiple different-length power paths to your
equipment, again you run into the impedance of those differently-
lengthed paths causing induced high potential difference across your
devices.

If your UPS generates true sinusoidal output then you have no issues
(other than differently-lengthed paths to your devices if you connect
multiple extensions to multiple outputs of the UPS). However, filtering
is pretty good in true sinusoidal UPS'es due to the inclusion of a huge
isolation transformer, so the expensive sinusoidal UPS probably won't
have spikes on its outputs from surges coming into it to worry about
impedance differences through multiple paths from UPS to your devices.
I doubt you have a true sinusoidal UPS. They're pricey.