XP OEM - Interesting conversation with MS employee

"kurttrail" wrote in message
...
Kerry Brown wrote:
"Leythos" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...
the latest from mike brannigan is that it's the oem that determines
when the
original computer is no longer the original computer . so who built
the computer , who bought the oem os and who installed the os on
that computer
determines the rules as far as i read it .

Not that I want to get into this again, but if you go into the OEM
site at MS, read around the documents, it seemed very clear to me
that the OEM software is tied to the first computer it's installed
on, and that the computer, by MS's documents on the OEM site,
indicate that the Motherboard is the "computer".

When I, as a personal choice, choose OEM, I limit the scope of the
license to the motherboard.

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I was at recent MS OEM event and attended a session on licensing. The
speaker was very clear that Microsoft's position was that changing the
motherboard was not allowed as it defines the computer. She even said
that in the near future activations will reflect this. Changing a
motherboard will only be allowed under warranty and will always cause
a phone in event. Later on she was asked about selling OEM software
with qualifying hardware what qualified? She said anything that was
essential to running a computer. She elaborated that that meant
anything within the case, even a ram chip, and also a keyboard and
mouse. Does anyone else see the inconsistency here? If someone from
the licensing dept. is inconsistent when trying to explain to the
mostly converted how is anyone supposed to make sense of it. My
interpretation of the EULA is OEM software stays with the computer.
If it's upgraded in any fashion over time it's within the EULA. If
the computer is sold, given away, or somehow still in use and a new
one is purchased then it's time for a new license.
Kerry

You can sell the computer with the OEM software. The EULA allows tranfers
with the computer it is licensed with.


That's what I meant. The OEM license stays with the computer. A lot ofpeople
seem to think it's ok to sell the computer with the OS installed but keep
the COA and use it with the new computer.

As for the rest. MS seems schizo when it comes to when a computer becomes
a new computer through upgrades. I see it as a legal issue. If MS
defines it in its EULA, that is something that would be destined for a
class action suit, and MS really does NOT want to be put in a position
where it has to defend its rules when it comes to private non-commercial
use. Especially since MS uses the OEM EULA to totally absolve itself any
liability at all, and pawn it all off on the OEM.

Doesn't make it easier for you and others in business selling computers
preinstalled with OEM XP, or selling XP with hardware components to know
what to do to sell it within the rules. I'd suggest next time you get
licensing person explaning such things you cover your ass, and record it.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

Bruce Chambers wrote:
T. Waters wrote:
Sorry, Bruce, for sounding insulting.


Accepted.


In my mind, you sounded like some
orthodox practioners of religion I know.


For my clarification then, and so as to avoid such a misunderstanding
in the future, could you tell me just how I "sounded" hypocritical?
Surely the desire for integrity in one's business partners and other -
even social - associates isn't dependent upon superstition.


I guess it is just a question of priorities. For me, it is
infinitely more important that people wash their hands after using
the restroom than that they abide by the OEM rules in the MS EULA.,
and I mean this seriously.





Not to discount your perfectly valid concern for sanitation and
personal hygiene, does this mean that you don't care when people lie
to you or break their promises to you? Set aside the subject of a
Microsoft EULA - this comes down to basic honesty, period. It doesn't
matter to whom a promise is made, with whom an agreement or contract
is made, or what specifics the promise, agreement , or contract
concerns. A broken promise is a broken promise. I don't see how a
person who reneges on an agreement to anyone else - even an
"anonymous" corporate entity - can be trusted to keep one with me;
the reneger (is that a word?) has clearly and irrefutably
demonstrated his untrustworthiness.

Actually, the orthodox practitioners of religion I know are not hypocrites,
but they spend what amounts to excessive time (IMO) "making God happy" when
it seems to me he might not really care if, say, they turned on a light at
the wrong time.

As to the EULA, if I lend my car to a friend, and tell them not to park it
in the bad part of town because of the risk of breakins, and they do park my
car there while a gas attendant (Oregon) is filling the gas tank, I do not
feel that my trust has been violated. They respected the spirit of my
request, and that is what is important. On the other hand, if they parked my
car and left it in the safe part of town, but on a street with, say, junkies
hanging out on it, they would be abusing my generosity. Intent is
everything.

"I don't see how a person who reneges on an agreement to anyone else - even
an "anonymous" corporate entity - can be trusted to keep one with me;"

I can see how Waters interpreted Chambers as "religious". Chambers writes
radical views.

Trust involves information. Anonymity involves misinformation. The word
"renege" is medieval latin. It is a poor choice of words. Bounce a check,
void the OS?!? Microsoft is obviously a monopolizing conglomerate above
regulation. Its asexual. To compare it with a human action is wrong.
Especially when it refers to humans as end users... End of what?
Humanitiy I say.

In article ,
says...
You cannot
have MS (nor youself) further elaborate them in scope or
terms after that contract is made.

Actually, I can ask MS to clarify it in order to see what / where they
are going or wanted to go, but it only matters to me as a means to
understand what they wanted to do, not what I'm (or anyone) is bound to.

What's funny, is that to be an OEM you are bound to more than just the
EULA, and the OEM site is setup for OEM's and to allow people to become
OEM's, and the site contains specifics about what they consider. At the
same time, you (in the US) are not an OEM just by getting an OEM disk
from an OEM, you are an OEM if you have an OEM agreement with MS,
otherwise you're just an end-user of OEM software.

So, one could reason that if you've read the OEM documents, signed on to
be an OEM so that you could order directly from the MS OEM program (and
not another OEM), that you would already know what MS has defined for
it's definitions. You do realize that purchasing OEM software from an
OEM does not make you an OEM, it only makes you a purchaser of OEM
software.

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In article , kerry@kdbNOSPAMsys-
tems.c*a*m says...
I was at recent MS OEM event and attended a session on licensing. The
speaker was very clear that Microsoft's position was that changing the
motherboard was not allowed as it defines the computer. She even said that
in the near future activations will reflect this. Changing a motherboard
will only be allowed under warranty and will always cause a phone in event.
Later on she was asked about selling OEM software with qualifying hardware
what qualified? She said anything that was essential to running a computer.
She elaborated that that meant anything within the case, even a ram chip,
and also a keyboard and mouse. Does anyone else see the inconsistency here?

The motherboard is what they describe on the OEM site too.

As for what you can sell OEM software with, I don't see where the
purchase has anything to do with it as long as you understand the
license is tied to the motherboard as defined above.

They are making it easy to purchase, which has nothing to do with a
license for use.

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On Tue, 10 May 2005 20:37:14 -0600, Bruce Chambers
wrote:

this comes down to basic honesty, period. It doesn't
matter to whom a promise is made, with whom an agreement or contract is
made, or what specifics the promise, agreement , or contract concerns.
A broken promise is a broken promise. I don't see how a person who
reneges on an agreement to anyone else - even an "anonymous" corporate
entity - can be trusted to keep one with me; the reneger (is that a
word?) has clearly and irrefutably demonstrated his untrustworthiness.

You are being over simple-minded....

The fact that a person has or has not lied and/or broken an agreement
says very little about that person's trustworthiness. Trustworthiness
is also a matter of context and not only one of mere fact.

During the Second World War there were Germans who put their lives on
the line to disobey and/or circumvent direct orders that would have
resulted in the death of innocent people. They accepted orders that
they told authorities were carried out when in fact they had not been.
They lied. They were being by your definition "dishonest".

Are you seriously saying that if such a person was now, say, my
neighbor that because of his "dishonesty" 60 years ago, under
conditions of life or death, that such a person is not now deserving
of my trust?

Beowulf

"Ron Martell" wrote in message
...
"Alias" wrote:



You are saying one cannot upgrade a computer if you have an OEM licence
and
that by upgrading it, you lose the licence to use the software you bought
for this upgraded computer. Scam, no matter how you slice it.

Example. Last year I got a MoBo with an AGP 4x slot and it can only handle
266 RAM. I want an 8x slot and a motherboard that can handle 400 RAM and a
faster 400 processor to go with it. With your theory, I would have to buy
another copy of an OEM Windows XP to upgrade the same computer the first
OEM
was installed on and I say that is a scam if true, it is designed to make
people buy software they already have and paid for. Now, I will buy the
motherboard and new RAM and if I have to call MS, I will only give them
the
number, as is outlined in their FAQs and not feel like a thief or weasal
but
as a person who merely upgraded his computer and didn't want to be forced
to
buy something I already have again!

Please explain how all of this relates to piracy, be it for profit or
"casual". I am all ears.


Some additional points that might be at least partially relevant to
this discussion:

1. Surveys have shown that the vast majority of PCs go to the scrap
heap or dumpster with their original hardware configurations intact.
Upgraded systems are a small minority of the total.

So the theory of the tyrannical majority applies and no one can upgrade
their computers?

2. OEM licenses are much less expensive than their retail
equivalents, and there is a reason for this. You get what you pay
for.

I haven't been able to find a retail copy of WinXP in Spain, only upgrades
and OEMs.

Alias


Ron Martell Duncan B.C. Canada
--
Microsoft MVP
On-Line Help Computer Service
http://onlinehelp.bc.ca

In memory of a dear friend Alex Nichol MVP
http://aumha.org/alex.htm

In article ,
says...
They accepted orders that
they told authorities were carried out when in fact they had not been.
They lied. They were being by your definition "dishonest".

So, what you're stating is that honesty and integrity are relative to
the personal views of the specific individual and not in relation to
society?

Either they lied or not, and either they are good to their word or not,
and any other interpretation is a subjective measure of their integrity.

--
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Leythos wrote:
In article ,
says...
You cannot
have MS (nor youself) further elaborate them in scope or
terms after that contract is made.

Actually, I can ask MS to clarify it in order to see what / where they
are going or wanted to go, but it only matters to me as a means to
understand what they wanted to do, not what I'm (or anyone) is bound
to.

What's funny, is that to be an OEM you are bound to more than just the
EULA, and the OEM site is setup for OEM's and to allow people to
become OEM's, and the site contains specifics about what they
consider. At the same time, you (in the US) are not an OEM just by
getting an OEM disk from an OEM, you are an OEM if you have an OEM
agreement with MS, otherwise you're just an end-user of OEM software.

So, one could reason that if you've read the OEM documents, signed on
to be an OEM so that you could order directly from the MS OEM program
(and not another OEM), that you would already know what MS has
defined for it's definitions. You do realize that purchasing OEM
software from an OEM does not make you an OEM, it only makes you a
purchaser of OEM software.


And more than likely the same can be said of the business that sold you
the software.

Walmart is just a seller of OEM Software, not a true OEM.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

Ron Martell wrote:
"Alias" wrote:



You are saying one cannot upgrade a computer if you have an OEM
licence and that by upgrading it, you lose the licence to use the
software you bought for this upgraded computer. Scam, no matter how
you slice it.

Example. Last year I got a MoBo with an AGP 4x slot and it can only
handle 266 RAM. I want an 8x slot and a motherboard that can handle
400 RAM and a faster 400 processor to go with it. With your theory,
I would have to buy another copy of an OEM Windows XP to upgrade the
same computer the first OEM was installed on and I say that is a
scam if true, it is designed to make people buy software they
already have and paid for. Now, I will buy the motherboard and new
RAM and if I have to call MS, I will only give them the number, as
is outlined in their FAQs and not feel like a thief or weasal but as
a person who merely upgraded his computer and didn't want to be
forced to buy something I already have again!

Please explain how all of this relates to piracy, be it for profit or
"casual". I am all ears.


Some additional points that might be at least partially relevant to
this discussion:

1. Surveys have shown that the vast majority of PCs go to the scrap
heap or dumpster with their original hardware configurations intact.
Upgraded systems are a small minority of the total.

2. OEM licenses are much less expensive than their retail
equivalents, and there is a reason for this. You get what you pay
for.

Yeah, you forced to pay over $100 for 2 outsourced to India techsupport
phone calls!

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"