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#21
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Lengthen the life of Windows 7 using the legal system
On Fri, 18 Jan 2019 10:39:38 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote: On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 18:01:33 -0600, Char Jackson wrote: One might wonder what's obsolete about Windows 7, and who gets to make the determination in the first place? It certainly doesn't seem obsolete to me. In fact, it seems to be much more functional and stable than 10, although that opinion isn't universal. I don't agree. In my experience, both Windows 7 and 10 are almost completely stable. I don't remember any Windows 10 crashes here. I wasn't referring to crashes. I was referring to having a stable computing platform that can be counted on to be ready to go when the user is ready to go. Clearly, Windows 10 misses that mark by a country mile. There's a segment of the computing public for which Windows 10 is just fine. Within that segment, you have people who just don't know any better, or people who use their computer for non-work activities who, at the most, are only inconvenienced by the weaknesses of Windows 10. I might say that they don't really care, or they've otherwise somehow come to grips with the idea that this is just how it is and how it's going to be. Kudos to that group, because they've made their lives a bit easier. But there's another segment of the computing public who need more platform stability, there's that word again, than Windows 10 can deliver. I can't say for sure, but I assume there will come a time, perhaps when I'm in retirement, where the current behavior of Windows 10 would put me into the first segment above, but at the moment, still being in the workforce and needing a computer to do my work, I'm very clearly in the second segment, where Windows 10 falls very short. Can MS get it to where it needs to be? I think so, but it's been about a decade now since they've tried to deliver an OS that does what I need, rather than what they (MS) want for it. Their goals, and my goals, are slipping further apart rather than getting closer. Also in my experience, Windows 10 is just as functional as Windows 7. Anything that can be done in Windows 7 can also be done in Window 10. Some days that's true. Other days it's not. From that perspective, things are much worse now than they were before Windows 10 came onto the scene. When you're using a computer for work, there are lots of times when you need it right now, not in 10 minutes or an hour, when it decides it's ready to be available. You're retired, so maybe none of it really matters to you. If the computer isn't ready to work, you can get up and get a cup of coffee. You can go for a walk or run an errand. I, and others like me who use a computer for work, don't have that luxury. Fortunately, we still have options. For me, that's Windows 7 and a highly customized Windows 8.1. Highly customized because it literally took me two years to get Windows 8.1 tamed to where I could start to depend on it. I could do it faster now, of course, but back then it was new and people were in the midst of discovering and remediating the various weaknesses and shortcomings. Now we're in the same situation with Windows 10, but so far we're finding that the most egregious behaviors have no easy remedies. |
#22
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Lengthen the life of Windows 7 using the legal system
"Char Jackson" wrote in message
... I wasn't referring to crashes. I was referring to having a stable computing platform that can be counted on to be ready to go when the user is ready to go. Clearly, Windows 10 misses that mark by a country mile. I can't say for sure, but I assume there will come a time, perhaps when I'm in retirement, where the current behavior of Windows 10 would put me into the first segment above, but at the moment, still being in the workforce and needing a computer to do my work, I'm very clearly in the second segment, where Windows 10 falls very short. Can MS get it to where it needs to be? I think so, but it's been about a decade now since they've tried to deliver an OS that does what I need, rather than what they (MS) want for it. Their goals, and my goals, are slipping further apart rather than getting closer. Also in my experience, Windows 10 is just as functional as Windows 7. Anything that can be done in Windows 7 can also be done in Window 10. Some days that's true. Other days it's not. From that perspective, things are much worse now than they were before Windows 10 came onto the scene. When you're using a computer for work, there are lots of times when you need it right now, not in 10 minutes or an hour, when it decides it's ready to be available. You're retired, so maybe none of it really matters to you. If the computer isn't ready to work, you can get up and get a cup of coffee. You can go for a walk or run an errand. I, and others like me who use a computer for work, don't have that luxury. Fortunately, we still have options. For me, that's Windows 7 and a highly customized Windows 8.1. Highly customized because it literally took me two years to get Windows 8.1 tamed to where I could start to depend on it. I could do it faster now, of course, but back then it was new and people were in the midst of discovering and remediating the various weaknesses and shortcomings. Now we're in the same situation with Windows 10, but so far we're finding that the most egregious behaviors have no easy remedies. My Windows 7 PC is staying Win 7 forever. I haven't got the patience to have to disentangle all the little things that will stop working after the upgrade (always assuming that the PC actually boots in the first place after upgrade) and will have to be removed, reinstalled and re-customised. Then there'll be all the software that is no longer compatible or which gets forcibly removed with no ability to download and install again (Windows Live Mail, for example). In other words, what sits on top of the operating system should require as little intervention as possible, even if the foundations (the OS) are removed and a new version installed. If I go for Win 10, it will be on a brand new PC that I can run side-by-side with the Win 7 PC, while I'm setting up the Win 10 PC to match the Win 7 one, without the Win 7 stopping working until the Win 10 problems have been addressed. Too many upgrades of software (not specifically the OS) stop a valued add-on from working. I loathe the new UI of Firefox and prefer the older versions that can be customised with Classic Theme Restorer that (you've guessed it) is incompatible with new Firefox. |
#23
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Lengthen the life of Windows 7 using the legal system
On Fri, 18 Jan 2019 13:14:40 -0600, Char Jackson
wrote: On Fri, 18 Jan 2019 10:39:38 -0700, Ken Blake wrote: On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 18:01:33 -0600, Char Jackson wrote: One might wonder what's obsolete about Windows 7, and who gets to make the determination in the first place? It certainly doesn't seem obsolete to me. In fact, it seems to be much more functional and stable than 10, although that opinion isn't universal. I don't agree. In my experience, both Windows 7 and 10 are almost completely stable. I don't remember any Windows 10 crashes here. I wasn't referring to crashes. I was referring to having a stable computing platform that can be counted on to be ready to go when the user is ready to go. Clearly, Windows 10 misses that mark by a country mile. I wouldn't call that "stability," but if that's what you meant, I'll respond to it. In my experience, not only does it not miss the mark by a country mile, it doesn't miss it by a country inch. It doesn't miss it all. On both Windows 10 computers here, and all the others I've helped people on, it's always ready. There's a segment of the computing public for which Windows 10 is just fine. Within that segment, you have people who just don't know any better, or people who use their computer for non-work activities who, at the most, are only inconvenienced by the weaknesses of Windows 10. I might say that they don't really care, or they've otherwise somehow come to grips with the idea that this is just how it is and how it's going to be. Kudos to that group, because they've made their lives a bit easier. But there's another segment of the computing public who need more platform stability, there's that word again, than Windows 10 can deliver. I can't say for sure, but I assume there will come a time, perhaps when I'm in retirement, where the current behavior of Windows 10 would put me into the first segment above, but at the moment, still being in the workforce and needing a computer to do my work, I'm very clearly in the second segment, where Windows 10 falls very short. Can MS get it to where it needs to be? I think so, but it's been about a decade now since they've tried to deliver an OS that does what I need, rather than what they (MS) want for it. Their goals, and my goals, are slipping further apart rather than getting closer. Also in my experience, Windows 10 is just as functional as Windows 7. Anything that can be done in Windows 7 can also be done in Window 10. Some days that's true. Other days it's not. From that perspective, things are much worse now than they were before Windows 10 came onto the scene. When you're using a computer for work, there are lots of times when you need it right now, not in 10 minutes or an hour, when it decides it's ready to be available. You're retired, so maybe none of it really matters to you. If the computer isn't ready to work, you can get up and get a cup of coffee. You can go for a walk or run an errand. I, and others like me who use a computer for work, don't have that luxury. Retired or not, it matters to me just as much as it does to you. But as I said, my experience is very different from yours. Fortunately, we still have options. For me, that's Windows 7 and a highly customized Windows 8.1. Highly customized because it literally took me two years to get Windows 8.1 tamed to where I could start to depend on it. I could do it faster now, of course, but back then it was new and people were in the midst of discovering and remediating the various weaknesses and shortcomings. Now we're in the same situation with Windows 10, but so far we're finding that the most egregious behaviors have no easy remedies. You and I don't disagree on many things, but this is one where we clearly do. |
#24
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Lengthen the life of Windows 7 using the legal system
Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
Can a class-action suit be filed to US Court to force Micro$oft to extend its support for Windows 7? Based on what? It's practically a 10 year old os that had been superseded twice (three times, if you include 8.1) and Microsoft has very clearly and in plenty of time announced its EOL. So not a chance. As others have said though there's nothing to stop you from continuing to use it. I do NOT think Windows 10 is ready for the prime time, it's update is absolutely as horrifying as a data doomsday. It's a horrible os, but it does work as well as any windows release. |
#25
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Lengthen the life of Windows 7 using the legal system
On 2019-01-19 10:43, Chris wrote:
Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote: Can a class-action suit be filed to US Court to force Micro$oft to extend its support for Windows 7? Based on what? It's practically a 10 year old os that had been superseded twice (three times, if you include 8.1) and Microsoft has very clearly and in plenty of time announced its EOL. So not a chance. As others have said though there's nothing to stop you from continuing to use it. I do NOT think Windows 10 is ready for the prime time, it's update is absolutely as horrifying as a data doomsday. It's a horrible os, but it does work as well as any windows release. I do not agree at all. Especially on slower laptops, Windows 10 runs absolutely TERRIBLE - cheap Pentium laptops for example like HP G4 250. It should not be even preinstalled on those machines. |
#26
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Lengthen the life of Windows 7 using the legal system
Filip454 wrote:
On 2019-01-19 10:43, Chris wrote: Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote: Can a class-action suit be filed to US Court to force Micro$oft to extend its support for Windows 7? Based on what? It's practically a 10 year old os that had been superseded twice (three times, if you include 8.1) and Microsoft has very clearly and in plenty of time announced its EOL. So not a chance. As others have said though there's nothing to stop you from continuing to use it. I do NOT think Windows 10 is ready for the prime time, it's update is absolutely as horrifying as a data doomsday. It's a horrible os, but it does work as well as any windows release. I do not agree at all. Especially on slower laptops, Windows 10 runs absolutely TERRIBLE - cheap Pentium laptops for example like HP G4 250. It should not be even preinstalled on those machines. That can happen if there's no graphics driver. There's one Intel SOC where it appears the graphics core was some sort of orphan, and it leaves the bad impression that Intel doesn't support the driver (as if the single driver done, was done by some other company). That particular model of laptop has multiple processor options, which would make if difficult to research the issue. Paul |
#27
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Lengthen the life of Windows 7 using the legal system
On 20/01/2019 18:07, Filip454 wrote:
On 2019-01-19 10:43, Chris wrote: Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote: Can a class-action suit be filed to US Court to force Micro$oft to extend its support for Windows 7? Based on what? It's practically a 10 year old os that had been superseded twice (three times, if you include 8.1) and Microsoft has very clearly and in plenty of time announced its EOL. So not a chance. As others have said though there's nothing to stop you from continuing to use it. I do NOT think Windows 10 is ready for the prime time, it's update is absolutely as horrifying as a data doomsday. It's a horrible os, but it does work as well as any windows release. I do not agree at all. Especially on slower laptops, Windows 10 runs absolutely TERRIBLE - cheap Pentium laptops for example like HP G4 250. It should not be even preinstalled on those machines. Windows has never worked well on under-powered (for it's generation) hardware. My "works as well as as any windows" is a very back-handed comment. It means that when it works it works fine, but sometimes it can be crashy as hell for people for no real reason. |
#28
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Lengthen the life of Windows 7 using the legal system
Chris wrote:
On 20/01/2019 18:07, Filip454 wrote: On 2019-01-19 10:43, Chris wrote: Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote: Can a class-action suit be filed to US Court to force Micro$oft to extend its support for Windows 7? Based on what? It's practically a 10 year old os that had been superseded twice (three times, if you include 8.1) and Microsoft has very clearly and in plenty of time announced its EOL. So not a chance. As others have said though there's nothing to stop you from continuing to use it. I do NOT think Windows 10 is ready for the prime time, it's update is absolutely as horrifying as a data doomsday. It's a horrible os, but it does work as well as any windows release. I do not agree at all. Especially on slower laptops, Windows 10 runs absolutely TERRIBLE - cheap Pentium laptops for example like HP G4 250. It should not be even preinstalled on those machines. Windows has never worked well on under-powered (for it's generation) hardware. My "works as well as as any windows" is a very back-handed comment. It means that when it works it works fine, but sometimes it can be crashy as hell for people for no real reason. I've benched hardware under the various OSes, and there really isn't much difference at the CPU cycle level. Since Windows 10 "reserves" cycles to remain responsive, you have to "oversubscribe on threads" to get 100% of the CPU capability. For example, on a 4 core CPU, you might use 8 threads in 7ZIP ultra, to drive the CPU to 100% instead of 85-90%. By doing some careful benchmarking, on "relatively simple" architectures, there's no difference. Windows 7 is ahead by maybe 1%, but it could easily be "poor technique" on my part or measurement error. I repeated some of my work three times (cache warmup or whatever), just to make sure I wasn't doing it wrong. You either cache warmup, or you reboot before every test sequence to re-establish initial state. When the CPU arch is "squirrel strange", like on a ThreadRipper or Epyc, more holes could show through. Embarrassing holes, that make it apparent the CPU isn't tuned by any OS loaded on it. When facilities in a CPU are not uniform, this is what happens. (Even though Microsoft has moaned and groaned for several of their OSes, that "things were better".) AMDs next version, the one that uses chiplets, hopes to get around this issue by making things more symmetric, more of the time. On an Intel processor with the dual rotating rings, you lose around one core of performance due to the bus. A six core processor gives five cores of thruput. Intel attempted to fix that using mesh busses (a bus array), but I've not examined any results on the web to see whether that improved things or not. And you got "more of your moneys worth". The interconnect issue was present in previous generations. A Q6600 which consists of two dual-core dies in the same CPU package, gives around 3.5 cores of performance out of a max of 4 cores. This is due to snoop traffic on the FSB - both cores share the FSB with the Northbridge connection, and "chit-chat" between processors robs the design of a bit of performance. Once the memory controller and PCIe video were brought inside the CPU, and the CPU consisted of one core, the efficiency came back. Usually a 4C8T processor is small enough now, to be "devoid of squirrels". Anything larger, do the research. And integrated video is another issue. There is at least one SOC that had a strange GPU in it, and only one driver was made for it. Which in a rolling release like Windows 10, is a liability (since the WDDM version number could be bumped). Paul |
#29
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Lengthen the life of Windows 7 using the legal system
Chris wrote:
On 20/01/2019 18:07, Filip454 wrote: On 2019-01-19 10:43, Chris wrote: Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote: Can a class-action suit be filed to US Court to force Micro$oft to extend its support for Windows 7? Based on what? It's practically a 10 year old os that had been superseded twice (three times, if you include 8.1) and Microsoft has very clearly and in plenty of time announced its EOL. So not a chance. As others have said though there's nothing to stop you from continuing to use it. I do NOT think Windows 10 is ready for the prime time, it's update is absolutely as horrifying as a data doomsday. It's a horrible os, but it does work as well as any windows release. I do not agree at all. Especially on slower laptops, Windows 10 runs absolutely TERRIBLE - cheap Pentium laptops for example like HP G4 250. It should not be even preinstalled on those machines. Windows has never worked well on under-powered (for it's generation) hardware. My "works as well as as any windows" is a very back-handed comment. It means that when it works it works fine, but sometimes it can be crashy as hell for people for no real reason. Some of my most "time-consuming" issues/problems that I have encountered on my pc and laptop over the years, have been caused by Windows Updates. Recently, I had to learn how to delete my entire "update history" in order to get Windows to perform an update. Thank goodness (for me) that many other people encountered and fixed the problem before I did. I spent about 6 hours trying to fix the problem myself before I went googling for a solution (my bad). It took a number of hours after that too, but I didn't stand around and watch. |
#30
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Lengthen the life of Windows 7 using the legal system
On Friday, January 18, 2019 at 7:53:08 PM UTC+8, mechanic wrote:
That's really a choice for MSFT. When/if they no longer support a version - usually after a couple of newer versions have been released - they are perfectly entitled to label the old version 'obsolete'. Fans of such versions of course may crowd together and share hints and tips, just like fans of old cars do even after the original makers went out of business. At the present time we know MSFT have released win10 versions 1511, 1607, 1703,1709, 1803, 1809 in a semi-annual pattern of feature updates. Hard to keep up for large user organisations no doubt, but easy enough for individual home/pro users, just like a stream of service packs. The only hard choice recently is the move from support for 32 bit machines to a 64 bit focus. That is a hard one when there are significant numbers still with 32 bit machines. 32-bit? that would go back to Northwood Pentium 4... Or do you mean with 4 GiB of memory or less? |
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