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Using UPS without data cable and software
Subject: Using UPS without data cable and software
System: Acer Aspire M3400 desktop w/ Windows 7 I just bought an APC UPS (ES 550), and was wondering about the consequences of not using the USB data cable and accompanying software. Here's my situation: the power in my area occasionally goes out for a split second -- enough time to reset my computer. I don't leave the computer unattended, so if the power goes off for an extended period of time, I can easily shut it down manually. Thanks for your input. |
#2
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Using UPS without data cable and software
C.M. Burns wrote:
Subject: Using UPS without data cable and software System: Acer Aspire M3400 desktop w/ Windows 7 I just bought an APC UPS (ES 550), and was wondering about the consequences of not using the USB data cable and accompanying software. Here's my situation: the power in my area occasionally goes out for a split second -- enough time to reset my computer. I don't leave the computer unattended, so if the power goes off for an extended period of time, I can easily shut it down manually. Thanks for your input. There's published statistical data that suggests that if the power is out for more than a few seconds, it's likely to be out longer than even the best ups can handle. If it's always attended, just start saving current work. Wait 30 seconds for the power to come back, then start shutting it down. |
#3
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Using UPS without data cable and software
C.M. Burns wrote:
Subject: Using UPS without data cable and software System: Acer Aspire M3400 desktop w/ Windows 7 I just bought an APC UPS (ES 550), and was wondering about the consequences of not using the USB data cable and accompanying software. Here's my situation: the power in my area occasionally goes out for a split second -- enough time to reset my computer. I don't leave the computer unattended, so if the power goes off for an extended period of time, I can easily shut it down manually. Thanks for your input. The consequence would be the UPS receives no feedback from the computer or the operating system. No user preferences could be configured. Bascially the UPS becomes a simple battery backup: when it can no longer maintain its output voltage, WHAM, your computer is powered off. There is no graceful exit of applications and shutdown of the OS. You prolong how long before the power cord gets yanked out of your computer. Despite journaling afforded by the NTFS system and other recovery mechanisms afforded by the OS for non-graceful (catastrophic) shutdown, I have still seen problems with data and configurations get corrupted due to slamming the computer down. That document you were working on may not have a usable temp backup (if it creates one and if you understand how to use it on the app's restart). The e-mail program may begin redownloading all e-mails that you received today, or its database gets corrupted and you're doing restores from your backups. Changes you've made in your current Windows session to your desktop are lost when the OS gets slammed down. So why are you averse to using the USB cable and installing their monitoring software? |
#4
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Using UPS without data cable and software
mike wrote:
C.M. Burns wrote: Subject: Using UPS without data cable and software System: Acer Aspire M3400 desktop w/ Windows 7 I just bought an APC UPS (ES 550), and was wondering about the consequences of not using the USB data cable and accompanying software. Here's my situation: the power in my area occasionally goes out for a split second -- enough time to reset my computer. I don't leave the computer unattended, so if the power goes off for an extended period of time, I can easily shut it down manually. Thanks for your input. There's published statistical data Please elaborate. This sounds like nothing more than poorly and corrupted multiply redirected rumour that "they" said something that you don't remember who they were, when they said it, on what they were talking about, or anything else relevant. that suggests that if the power is out for more than a few seconds, it's likely to be out longer than even the best ups can handle. You don't buy a UPS and expect it to work forever just like the day you got it. It has batteries. Batteries wear out. They reduce in capacity over time or may simply no longer charge at all. Plan on a 3-5 year replacement schedule for the batteries in your UPS depending on size and type of the batteries inside. |
#5
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Using UPS without data cable and software
C.M. Burns wrote:
Subject: Using UPS without data cable and software System: Acer Aspire M3400 desktop w/ Windows 7 I just bought an APC UPS (ES 550), and was wondering about the consequences of not using the USB data cable and accompanying software. Here's my situation: the power in my area occasionally goes out for a split second -- enough time to reset my computer. I don't leave the computer unattended, so if the power goes off for an extended period of time, I can easily shut it down manually. Thanks for your input. The interface on a UPS, is to enable a "controlled" shutdown of a single connected computer. The UPS sends some kind of signal, which the UPS software on the computer end interprets as a request to shutdown. Doing an orderly shutdown of the computer, in an unattended situation, helps prevent file system corruption. The connection, is for the benefit of the computer. The UPS doesn't care. The UPS does not rely on that connection, for proper operation. A UPS may be used for electrical loads which are not computers (like running a single light bulb). In fact, in some countries, that is a main reason for owning one - some countries have regular blackout patterns, and the people there use the UPS to run the lights until the utility comes back hours later. So not connecting that USB cable to something, doesn't prevent the power management functions internal to the UPS from working. The UPS should shut off the output anyway, when the battery is run down to a certain level. Paul |
#6
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Using UPS without data cable and software
VanguardLH wrote:
mike wrote: C.M. Burns wrote: Subject: Using UPS without data cable and software System: Acer Aspire M3400 desktop w/ Windows 7 I just bought an APC UPS (ES 550), and was wondering about the consequences of not using the USB data cable and accompanying software. Here's my situation: the power in my area occasionally goes out for a split second -- enough time to reset my computer. I don't leave the computer unattended, so if the power goes off for an extended period of time, I can easily shut it down manually. Thanks for your input. There's published statistical data Please elaborate. I'm far too lazy to try to look it up just because you choose not to believe it. Believe it, don't believe it, I don't care. The only thing that matters to me is that I believe it and it is consistent with my personal experience. You asked for input; you got it. I really don't care whether you use the input. This sounds like nothing more than poorly and corrupted multiply redirected rumour that "they" said something that you don't remember who they were, when they said it, on what they were talking about, or anything else relevant. that suggests that if the power is out for more than a few seconds, it's likely to be out longer than even the best ups can handle. You don't buy a UPS and expect it to work forever just like the day you got it. It has batteries. Batteries wear out. They reduce in capacity over time or may simply no longer charge at all. Plan on a 3-5 year replacement schedule for the batteries in your UPS depending on size and type of the batteries inside. Your point, exactly? I merely said, that for your stated objective == continuously monitored by a human, you have plenty of time to shut it down manually in the unlikely event that the power is out for more than a few seconds. If you believe the statistics, you'd start shutting down within a minute of power outage...cause it ain't coming back soon... YMMV If you DO leave the computer unattended, you need to restate what you actually mean...if you expect relevant responses. |
#7
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Using UPS without data cable and software
VanguardLH wrote:
mike wrote: certs.lbl.gov/pdf/55718.pdf |
#8
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Using UPS without data cable and software
mike wrote:
VanguardLH wrote: mike wrote: C.M. Burns wrote: Subject: Using UPS without data cable and software System: Acer Aspire M3400 desktop w/ Windows 7 I just bought an APC UPS (ES 550), and was wondering about the consequences of not using the USB data cable and accompanying software. Here's my situation: the power in my area occasionally goes out for a split second -- enough time to reset my computer. I don't leave the computer unattended, so if the power goes off for an extended period of time, I can easily shut it down manually. Thanks for your input. There's published statistical data Please elaborate. I'm far too lazy to try to look it up just because you choose not to believe it. Believe it, don't believe it, I don't care. The only thing that matters to me is that I believe it and it is consistent with my personal experience. You asked for input; you got it. I really don't care whether you use the input. This sounds like nothing more than poorly and corrupted multiply redirected rumour that "they" said something that you don't remember who they were, when they said it, on what they were talking about, or anything else relevant. that suggests that if the power is out for more than a few seconds, it's likely to be out longer than even the best ups can handle. You don't buy a UPS and expect it to work forever just like the day you got it. It has batteries. Batteries wear out. They reduce in capacity over time or may simply no longer charge at all. Plan on a 3-5 year replacement schedule for the batteries in your UPS depending on size and type of the batteries inside. Your point, exactly? My point was that your reply said NOTHING relevant to the OP. Just why won't the UPS manage a several-second outage? Who know and nobody will know based on your "they said" rumor. So everyone that sees your reply has to guess as to what might've been the cause for the failure to cover a power outage by the UPS. My guess was the batteries were old and weak. Just as good a guess for cause as anyone else's based on your nebulous claim. If this has happened to you where the UPS would not cover for a few seconds for a power outage then perhaps you might know the cause of your particular circumstance. Were the batteries weak? How old were they? How long since the last full power cycling of them? Do you have a true UPS or merely a SPS the vendor claimed was a UPS? Did you severely underrate your UPS so it could never provide more than a few seconds on battery power during an outage? Did you calculate what load the UPS had to handle and for how long? After that, did you keep adding more devices to load the UPS beyond your original calculation? Was it a full moon? You don't want to show anything about the so-called "published" information and you give absolutely no real information as to why UPSes can't be trusted to provide coverage for more than a few seconds (which means they can't be trusted at all since no OS gracefully shuts down that fast). |
#9
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Using UPS without data cable and software
mike wrote:
certs.lbl.gov/pdf/55718.pdf "if the power is out for more than a few seconds, it's likely to be out longer than even the best ups can handle." So perhaps I understood your statement incorrectly. Rather than denounce the abilities of a UPS for backup power, it seems you are saying that either the outage will be a few seconds or it will last for hours (and longer than a "best" UPS can cover the outage). Okay, but that apparently is regional since outages in my area are either momentary (perhaps less than a second) or they are for many minutes up to maybe an hour. Rarely do we get outages that last more than a couple hours or are days long (and in that case a huge area has been hit). In those cases, we're more concerned about barring unneccessary visits to the fridge so we don't lose our refridgerated foods. You can certainly purchase a UPS that can last for many hours to cover just your system case and the monitor (and nothing else, like powered speakers, printers, scanners, and other peripherals). Some folks even get gas-powered generators to have power that covers an outage lasting for several days (depends on the fuel supply). For a home user, yeah, they might only go for a UPS that lasts them a couple hours versus a hospital that needs a far longer lasting setup but then only few outages would outlast that UPS but the home user can still get a "best" UPS that lasts for many hours. Best always equates to price and there was no restriction on price in your or the OP's posts, so "best" goes as high as the technology allows - and that's a long time. Typically consumers buy very underpowered UPS. That's because they never bother to compute how long the UPS will keep their system up along with not willing to pay the price for that long uptime. They go cheap, just like they do with PSUs when they build their own. Getting an 18kVA unit would let you continue using your computer for probably around 10 hours. Some users, however, are looking to use a UPS just for data integrity by letting the OS gracefully shutdown. A UPS for that task only needs to keep the computer powered for a few minutes during an outage. If your area gets hit with stuttering outages (it's out, comes back, goes out again, goes out, back on, and repeats) then you probably want a UPS that will work over several stutters (so your host doesn't bounce after the UPS has been drained). "out longer than even the best ups can handle". That all depends on just what backup power setup you have. The "best" could be an extremely huge backup power system and even include a gas-powered generator and a huge fuel tank. When you said "best", you left open-ended your argument because "best" is dictated by the users needs and their wallet. From the article you gave, "From a customer¢s perspective, electricity reliability problems come in a variety of forms. Interruptions or outages during which voltage drops to near zero for periods of time ranging from a few seconds to several hours are the most visible problems and affect the widest range of electricity-consuming equipment." Okay, but who says the "best" UPS setup can't survive a multi-hour power outage? Even if you toss out the backup gas-powered generator scenario, you can still get a large UPS or get those that can be ganged together to give you 2, 5, 10 hours, or more, of backup power. Because consumers are focused on price, they shouldn't be looking at hours of backup power (so your argument that a power outage is a few seconds to over hours long is irrelevant). They should be looking at one that gives them time to close their documents and let the OS shutdown gracefully. That size unit is within the range of their personal finances. Unless the user has a lot of cash (often far exceeding the cost of their personal consumer-grade computer), they should be concerned about data integrity rather than uptime when looking to add a UPS in their setup. You buy more uptime and its expensive. It's cheaper to get just enough uptime to preserve data integrity. Home users don't have the needs of hospitals, banks, or commercial datacenters where the "best" UPS for those needs are far beyond the financial means of end users; however, the "best" backup power systems can keep you up for days, weeks, or indefinitely (if you have a setup that lets you stay off the "grid"). |
#10
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Using UPS without data cable and software
VanguardLH wrote:
mike wrote: certs.lbl.gov/pdf/55718.pdf "if the power is out for more than a few seconds, it's likely to be out longer than even the best ups can handle." So perhaps I understood your statement incorrectly. Rather than denounce the abilities of a UPS for backup power, it seems you are saying that either the outage will be a few seconds or it will last for hours (and longer than a "best" UPS can cover the outage). Okay, but that apparently is regional since outages in my area are either momentary (perhaps less than a second) or they are for many minutes up to maybe an hour. Rarely do we get outages that last more than a couple hours or are days long (and in that case a huge area has been hit). In those cases, we're more concerned about barring unneccessary visits to the fridge so we don't lose our refridgerated foods. You can certainly purchase a UPS that can last for many hours to cover just your system case and the monitor (and nothing else, like powered speakers, printers, scanners, and other peripherals). Some folks even get gas-powered generators to have power that covers an outage lasting for several days (depends on the fuel supply). For a home user, yeah, they might only go for a UPS that lasts them a couple hours versus a hospital that needs a far longer lasting setup but then only few outages would outlast that UPS but the home user can still get a "best" UPS that lasts for many hours. Best always equates to price and there was no restriction on price in your or the OP's posts, so "best" goes as high as the technology allows - and that's a long time. Typically consumers buy very underpowered UPS. That's because they never bother to compute how long the UPS will keep their system up along with not willing to pay the price for that long uptime. They go cheap, just like they do with PSUs when they build their own. Getting an 18kVA unit would let you continue using your computer for probably around 10 hours. Some users, however, are looking to use a UPS just for data integrity by letting the OS gracefully shutdown. A UPS for that task only needs to keep the computer powered for a few minutes during an outage. If your area gets hit with stuttering outages (it's out, comes back, goes out again, goes out, back on, and repeats) then you probably want a UPS that will work over several stutters (so your host doesn't bounce after the UPS has been drained). "out longer than even the best ups can handle". That all depends on just what backup power setup you have. The "best" could be an extremely huge backup power system and even include a gas-powered generator and a huge fuel tank. When you said "best", you left open-ended your argument because "best" is dictated by the users needs and their wallet. From the article you gave, "From a customer¢s perspective, electricity reliability problems come in a variety of forms. Interruptions or outages during which voltage drops to near zero for periods of time ranging from a few seconds to several hours are the most visible problems and affect the widest range of electricity-consuming equipment." Okay, but who says the "best" UPS setup can't survive a multi-hour power outage? Even if you toss out the backup gas-powered generator scenario, you can still get a large UPS or get those that can be ganged together to give you 2, 5, 10 hours, or more, of backup power. Because consumers are focused on price, they shouldn't be looking at hours of backup power (so your argument that a power outage is a few seconds to over hours long is irrelevant). They should be looking at one that gives them time to close their documents and let the OS shutdown gracefully. That size unit is within the range of their personal finances. Unless the user has a lot of cash (often far exceeding the cost of their personal consumer-grade computer), they should be concerned about data integrity rather than uptime when looking to add a UPS in their setup. You buy more uptime and its expensive. It's cheaper to get just enough uptime to preserve data integrity. Home users don't have the needs of hospitals, banks, or commercial datacenters where the "best" UPS for those needs are far beyond the financial means of end users; however, the "best" backup power systems can keep you up for days, weeks, or indefinitely (if you have a setup that lets you stay off the "grid"). You're getting far too hung up on the word "best". Delete that word and concentrate on the fact that on page 39 of the referenced article, the scatter graph demonstrates that the VAST majority of power outages are less than 1000 cycles. Of course, there are outages that are longer than that and still shorter than your backyard nuclear reactor can support. The OP claims that the computer is attended. Based on that, he should start shutting things down as soon as the outage manifests and all will be well. Yes, there will be instances where the power comes back on before the ups would have run down, but those instances are statistically insignificant. For home users, making the UPS run time 2 or 5 or 10x as long improves the situation little...at great expense. I have not stated the obvious: the run time must be at least as long as it takes to recognize the outage plus the shutdown time. Bottom line is...IFF the computer is attended, he doesn't need a wire or shutdown application. If he mis-stated the "attended" scenario, he needs to restate it, if he expects relevant input. |
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