SLI and power suppliy

Phil Weldon wrote:

It does nothing of the sort, and what you pose as a problem does not exist.
It is not the POWER SUPPLY specifications that need clarification, but
rather the DISPLAY ADAPTER specifications for power consumption. Read the
spec for ATX 12V rev 2.2; it is crystal clear.

Yes, the average consumer is going to not only be able to locate and
understand the specifications for ATX 12V rev 2.2, but know that is the
specification he should be seeking out. Pick up a retail package for a
PSU, pretend you aren't an electrical engineer and try to make sense of it.

You reinforce my point by your comment. The comments in this thread
prove the point.

Nvidia, via their SLI PSU certification page, is more of a useful
resource for determining the utility of a PSU than any existing copy on
a PSU box to its utility for a video card.

I repeat, power supply marketing materials are near useless in
determining actual utility.

'Mr.E Solved2' wrote, in part:
| Nvidia, via their SLI PSU certification page, is more of a useful
| resource for determining the utility of a PSU than any existing copy on
| a PSU box to its utility for a video card.
_____

The problem is NOT the ATX 12V rev 2.2 specifications OR the capacity labels
on power supply packaging OR what is usually printed on the PSU itself.

The problem is the nVidia SLI PSU certification page which lists power
supplies that have much more capacity than is needed. The SLI PSU
certification list encourages overspending on unneeded capacity, and adds to
the heat created, power wasted, and energy expenses.

You draw the wrong conclusions.

Phil Weldon


"Mr.E Solved!" wrote in message
. ..
| Phil Weldon wrote:
|
| It does nothing of the sort, and what you pose as a problem does not
exist.
| It is not the POWER SUPPLY specifications that need clarification, but
| rather the DISPLAY ADAPTER specifications for power consumption. Read
the
| spec for ATX 12V rev 2.2; it is crystal clear.
|
| Yes, the average consumer is going to not only be able to locate and
| understand the specifications for ATX 12V rev 2.2, but know that is the
| specification he should be seeking out. Pick up a retail package for a
| PSU, pretend you aren't an electrical engineer and try to make sense of
it.
|
| You reinforce my point by your comment. The comments in this thread
| prove the point.
|
| Nvidia, via their SLI PSU certification page, is more of a useful
| resource for determining the utility of a PSU than any existing copy on
| a PSU box to its utility for a video card.
|
| I repeat, power supply marketing materials are near useless in
| determining actual utility.
|

Phil Weldon wrote:
The SLI PSU
certification list encourages overspending on unneeded capacity, and adds to
the heat created, power wasted, and energy expenses.

You draw the wrong conclusions.

Phil Weldon


Phil, a PSU with a larger capacity than the current required by the PC
draws no more power from the wall than a smaller PSU that still has a
larger capacity than the current required.

And you tell me I draw the wrong conclusions? Educate yourself.

'Mr.E Solved!' wrote, in part:
| a PSU with a larger capacity than the current required by the PC
| draws no more power from the wall than a smaller PSU that still has a
| larger capacity than the current required.
_____

Not so (see Energy Star requirements at
http://www.formfactors.org/developer...public_br2.pdf ).

And what about 'certification list encourages overspending on unneeded
capacity'?

Phil Weldon

"Mr.E Solved!" wrote in message
. ..
| Phil Weldon wrote:
| The SLI PSU
| certification list encourages overspending on unneeded capacity, and
adds to
| the heat created, power wasted, and energy expenses.
|
| You draw the wrong conclusions.
|
| Phil Weldon
|
|
| Phil, a PSU with a larger capacity than the current required by the PC
| draws no more power from the wall than a smaller PSU that still has a
| larger capacity than the current required.
|
| And you tell me I draw the wrong conclusions? Educate yourself.

Phil Weldon wrote:
'Mr.E Solved!' wrote, in part:
| a PSU with a larger capacity than the current required by the PC
| draws no more power from the wall than a smaller PSU that still has a
| larger capacity than the current required.
_____


Not so (see Energy Star requirements at
http://www.formfactors.org/developer...public_br2.pdf ).

You are incorrect, I will politely correct you again, but please, this
topic is annoying enough without having to argue that which is
understood already.

The Energy Star requirements for ATX v2.2 are only considered when the
APIC v1.1 of v1.4 enabled PC is in STR Mode 1 or 3, not when in actual
use (or off). The scaling of AC current draw from the line as it applies
to the continuous available wattage rating of the PSU, as indicated on
page 22, section 3.2.5.2, table 10, is relevant only when the PC is in
sleep or hibernate mode (STR1&3).

Yes, larger power supplies can draw minimally more current when in sleep
mode than smaller capacity PSU's. This is a function of the design of a
switching power supply and has zero relation to full power modes which
is the primary, most used and most costly mode of PC use. Most high
wattage PSU users do not use sleep or hibernate mode, due to the nature
and limitations of sleep and hibernate mode. STR1&3 is most useful in
portable and battery operated laptops where the minimal wattage
differences actually effect lifetime. The differences are minimal, vary
by manufacturer, and the referenced chart is a guideline for
certification, not actual draws from the line current or specific units.
Many designs beat those specifications by virtue of their efficiency
rating being near to 80% in standby mode, not the recommended (and
rather poor) 50% efficiency of the specification.

That you send me a link to a 45 page PDF which goes into minutia of the
electrical specifications of ATX v2.2, is the very point of my initial
assertion that the consumer has precious little meaningful guidance and
is in fact mis-served by the distilled information from the
specification that ends up on the outside of the retail box.

Lastly, marginal power supplies (those that just barely meet the current
needs of the PC system) are the ones that generate more waste heat since
they are at the limits of the specifications of their components. Over
built supplies achieve far better performance by having components that
are not stressed under use. The PSU's fans spin slower as well (if at
all) since ambient temperatures (which negatively affect efficiency) are
lower due to reduced resistance in the internal circuitry. As the
temperature rises, so does resistance, which in turn raises the
temperature again, lowering efficiency.


And what about 'certification list encourages overspending on unneeded
capacity'?


I do not disagree that marketers are trying to get more money from
misinformed consumers by "up-selling" wattage ratings on otherwise
mediocre PSU's. My point is that the industry needs to adopt the same
reformations that home stereo component and speaker manufacturers did in
the 80's. Dropping the numbers games and focusing on what units can
power which devices.

'Mr.E Solved!' wrote, in part:
| I do not disagree that marketers are trying to get more money from
| misinformed consumers by "up-selling" wattage ratings on otherwise
| mediocre PSU's. My point is that the industry needs to adopt the same
| reformations that home stereo component and speaker manufacturers did in
| the 80's. Dropping the numbers games and focusing on what units can
| power which devices.
_____

Yeah, right. Look at all the output power ratings for audio amplifier
output levels: RMS, Peak RMS, Acoustic Power, Peak Acoustic (at a supposed
ratio of 1:2:4:8) and the dependence of output on the speaker impedance
(8:4:2 Ohms). And look at the amplifiers that are labeled with an RMS power
output greater than the total AC power consumption. Standards to
advertisers and merchandisers are vague at best, and something to be ignored
a worst.

Thus the need for an educated buyer. Without trying to understand the
manufacturing standards a buyer is at the mercy of those who either ignore
or don't understand the standards. In "Dropping the numbers games and
focusing on what units can power which devices." you bury your head in the
sand.

The topic is not annoying, a 'know-nothing' attitude is.

By the way, according to ATX 12V rev 2.2, Energy Star requirements for power
supplies rated at over 450 Watts are equal to or less than 10% of the rated
maximum continuous power rating.

Phil Weldon




"Mr.E Solved!" wrote in message
. ..
| Phil Weldon wrote:
| 'Mr.E Solved!' wrote, in part:
| | a PSU with a larger capacity than the current required by the PC
| | draws no more power from the wall than a smaller PSU that still has a
| | larger capacity than the current required.
| _____
|
|
| Not so (see Energy Star requirements at
|
http://www.formfactors.org/developer...public_br2.pdf ).
|
| You are incorrect, I will politely correct you again, but please, this
| topic is annoying enough without having to argue that which is
| understood already.
|
| The Energy Star requirements for ATX v2.2 are only considered when the
| APIC v1.1 of v1.4 enabled PC is in STR Mode 1 or 3, not when in actual
| use (or off). The scaling of AC current draw from the line as it applies
| to the continuous available wattage rating of the PSU, as indicated on
| page 22, section 3.2.5.2, table 10, is relevant only when the PC is in
| sleep or hibernate mode (STR1&3).
|
| Yes, larger power supplies can draw minimally more current when in sleep
| mode than smaller capacity PSU's. This is a function of the design of a
| switching power supply and has zero relation to full power modes which
| is the primary, most used and most costly mode of PC use. Most high
| wattage PSU users do not use sleep or hibernate mode, due to the nature
| and limitations of sleep and hibernate mode. STR1&3 is most useful in
| portable and battery operated laptops where the minimal wattage
| differences actually effect lifetime. The differences are minimal, vary
| by manufacturer, and the referenced chart is a guideline for
| certification, not actual draws from the line current or specific units.
| Many designs beat those specifications by virtue of their efficiency
| rating being near to 80% in standby mode, not the recommended (and
| rather poor) 50% efficiency of the specification.
|
| That you send me a link to a 45 page PDF which goes into minutia of the
| electrical specifications of ATX v2.2, is the very point of my initial
| assertion that the consumer has precious little meaningful guidance and
| is in fact mis-served by the distilled information from the
| specification that ends up on the outside of the retail box.
|
| Lastly, marginal power supplies (those that just barely meet the current
| needs of the PC system) are the ones that generate more waste heat since
| they are at the limits of the specifications of their components. Over
| built supplies achieve far better performance by having components that
| are not stressed under use. The PSU's fans spin slower as well (if at
| all) since ambient temperatures (which negatively affect efficiency) are
| lower due to reduced resistance in the internal circuitry. As the
| temperature rises, so does resistance, which in turn raises the
| temperature again, lowering efficiency.
|
|
| And what about 'certification list encourages overspending on unneeded
| capacity'?
|
|
| I do not disagree that marketers are trying to get more money from
| misinformed consumers by "up-selling" wattage ratings on otherwise
| mediocre PSU's. My point is that the industry needs to adopt the same
| reformations that home stereo component and speaker manufacturers did in
| the 80's. Dropping the numbers games and focusing on what units can
| power which devices.
|
|
|
|
|

Let me see here. I'm going to spend drop $900 for the fastest processor,
$600 for each of the two 8800GTX SLI cards, $200 - $300 for the latest MB,
twice that for good DDR2 memory at least in the 2 Gb size, another $200 plus
for each Raptor drive... Etc.. Etc...

After getting that together, what dunce would even consider worrying about
$100 here or there in getting a PSU that's up to the task, with adequate
additional capacity (like the other components mentioned) to ensure this
machine works at peak performance levels?

Do yourself a favor and add a Coolermaster Real Power Pro 850W (RS-850-EMBA)
or comparable PSU, that is SLI ready, with a silent fan, and that never
breaks a sweat. It's a no brainer.

System Specs
Asus Striker Extreme
Quad Core X6700 at 2.66 GHz (stock speed for now)
2 eVGA 8800GTX 768-P2-N837-AR in SLI
2 Gb, Corsair Twin2X2048-400C4PRO
2 WD1500ADFD Raptor 150 Gb Drives
Windows Vista Ultimate
PSU aforementioned Coolermaster Real Power Pro 850W

BobbyD...


"Phil Weldon" wrote in message
thlink.net...
'Mr.E Solved!' wrote, in part:
| I do not disagree that marketers are trying to get more money from
| misinformed consumers by "up-selling" wattage ratings on otherwise
| mediocre PSU's. My point is that the industry needs to adopt the same
| reformations that home stereo component and speaker manufacturers did in
| the 80's. Dropping the numbers games and focusing on what units can
| power which devices.
_____

Yeah, right. Look at all the output power ratings for audio amplifier
output levels: RMS, Peak RMS, Acoustic Power, Peak Acoustic (at a
supposed
ratio of 1:2:4:8) and the dependence of output on the speaker impedance
(8:4:2 Ohms). And look at the amplifiers that are labeled with an RMS
power
output greater than the total AC power consumption. Standards to
advertisers and merchandisers are vague at best, and something to be
ignored
a worst.

Thus the need for an educated buyer. Without trying to understand the
manufacturing standards a buyer is at the mercy of those who either ignore
or don't understand the standards. In "Dropping the numbers games and
focusing on what units can power which devices." you bury your head in the
sand.

The topic is not annoying, a 'know-nothing' attitude is.

By the way, according to ATX 12V rev 2.2, Energy Star requirements for
power
supplies rated at over 450 Watts are equal to or less than 10% of the
rated
maximum continuous power rating.

Phil Weldon




"Mr.E Solved!" wrote in message
. ..
| Phil Weldon wrote:
| 'Mr.E Solved!' wrote, in part:
| | a PSU with a larger capacity than the current required by the PC
| | draws no more power from the wall than a smaller PSU that still has
a
| | larger capacity than the current required.
| _____
|
|
| Not so (see Energy Star requirements at
|
http://www.formfactors.org/developer...public_br2.pdf
).
|
| You are incorrect, I will politely correct you again, but please, this
| topic is annoying enough without having to argue that which is
| understood already.
|
| The Energy Star requirements for ATX v2.2 are only considered when the
| APIC v1.1 of v1.4 enabled PC is in STR Mode 1 or 3, not when in actual
| use (or off). The scaling of AC current draw from the line as it applies
| to the continuous available wattage rating of the PSU, as indicated on
| page 22, section 3.2.5.2, table 10, is relevant only when the PC is in
| sleep or hibernate mode (STR1&3).
|
| Yes, larger power supplies can draw minimally more current when in sleep
| mode than smaller capacity PSU's. This is a function of the design of a
| switching power supply and has zero relation to full power modes which
| is the primary, most used and most costly mode of PC use. Most high
| wattage PSU users do not use sleep or hibernate mode, due to the nature
| and limitations of sleep and hibernate mode. STR1&3 is most useful in
| portable and battery operated laptops where the minimal wattage
| differences actually effect lifetime. The differences are minimal, vary
| by manufacturer, and the referenced chart is a guideline for
| certification, not actual draws from the line current or specific units.
| Many designs beat those specifications by virtue of their efficiency
| rating being near to 80% in standby mode, not the recommended (and
| rather poor) 50% efficiency of the specification.
|
| That you send me a link to a 45 page PDF which goes into minutia of the
| electrical specifications of ATX v2.2, is the very point of my initial
| assertion that the consumer has precious little meaningful guidance and
| is in fact mis-served by the distilled information from the
| specification that ends up on the outside of the retail box.
|
| Lastly, marginal power supplies (those that just barely meet the current
| needs of the PC system) are the ones that generate more waste heat since
| they are at the limits of the specifications of their components. Over
| built supplies achieve far better performance by having components that
| are not stressed under use. The PSU's fans spin slower as well (if at
| all) since ambient temperatures (which negatively affect efficiency) are
| lower due to reduced resistance in the internal circuitry. As the
| temperature rises, so does resistance, which in turn raises the
| temperature again, lowering efficiency.
|
|
| And what about 'certification list encourages overspending on unneeded
| capacity'?
|
|
| I do not disagree that marketers are trying to get more money from
| misinformed consumers by "up-selling" wattage ratings on otherwise
| mediocre PSU's. My point is that the industry needs to adopt the same
| reformations that home stereo component and speaker manufacturers did in
| the 80's. Dropping the numbers games and focusing on what units can
| power which devices.
|
|
|
|
|

And you are responding to which post?

Phil Weldon

"Bobby D" wrote in message
...
Let me see here. I'm going to spend drop $900 for the fastest processor,
$600 for each of the two 8800GTX SLI cards, $200 - $300 for the latest MB,
twice that for good DDR2 memory at least in the 2 Gb size, another $200
plus for each Raptor drive... Etc.. Etc...

After getting that together, what dunce would even consider worrying about
$100 here or there in getting a PSU that's up to the task, with adequate
additional capacity (like the other components mentioned) to ensure this
machine works at peak performance levels?

Do yourself a favor and add a Coolermaster Real Power Pro 850W
(RS-850-EMBA) or comparable PSU, that is SLI ready, with a silent fan, and
that never breaks a sweat. It's a no brainer.

System Specs
Asus Striker Extreme
Quad Core X6700 at 2.66 GHz (stock speed for now)
2 eVGA 8800GTX 768-P2-N837-AR in SLI
2 Gb, Corsair Twin2X2048-400C4PRO
2 WD1500ADFD Raptor 150 Gb Drives
Windows Vista Ultimate
PSU aforementioned Coolermaster Real Power Pro 850W

BobbyD...


"Phil Weldon" wrote in message
thlink.net...
'Mr.E Solved!' wrote, in part:
| I do not disagree that marketers are trying to get more money from
| misinformed consumers by "up-selling" wattage ratings on otherwise
| mediocre PSU's. My point is that the industry needs to adopt the same
| reformations that home stereo component and speaker manufacturers did
in
| the 80's. Dropping the numbers games and focusing on what units can
| power which devices.
_____

Yeah, right. Look at all the output power ratings for audio amplifier
output levels: RMS, Peak RMS, Acoustic Power, Peak Acoustic (at a
supposed
ratio of 1:2:4:8) and the dependence of output on the speaker impedance
(8:4:2 Ohms). And look at the amplifiers that are labeled with an RMS
power
output greater than the total AC power consumption. Standards to
advertisers and merchandisers are vague at best, and something to be
ignored
a worst.

Thus the need for an educated buyer. Without trying to understand the
manufacturing standards a buyer is at the mercy of those who either
ignore
or don't understand the standards. In "Dropping the numbers games and
focusing on what units can power which devices." you bury your head in
the
sand.

The topic is not annoying, a 'know-nothing' attitude is.

By the way, according to ATX 12V rev 2.2, Energy Star requirements for
power
supplies rated at over 450 Watts are equal to or less than 10% of the
rated
maximum continuous power rating.

Phil Weldon




"Mr.E Solved!" wrote in message
. ..
| Phil Weldon wrote:
| 'Mr.E Solved!' wrote, in part:
| | a PSU with a larger capacity than the current required by the PC
| | draws no more power from the wall than a smaller PSU that still has
a
| | larger capacity than the current required.
| _____
|
|
| Not so (see Energy Star requirements at
|

ttp://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/ATX12V_PSDG_2_2_public_br2.pdf
).
|
| You are incorrect, I will politely correct you again, but please, this
| topic is annoying enough without having to argue that which is
| understood already.
|
| The Energy Star requirements for ATX v2.2 are only considered when the
| APIC v1.1 of v1.4 enabled PC is in STR Mode 1 or 3, not when in actual
| use (or off). The scaling of AC current draw from the line as it
applies
| to the continuous available wattage rating of the PSU, as indicated on
| page 22, section 3.2.5.2, table 10, is relevant only when the PC is in
| sleep or hibernate mode (STR1&3).
|
| Yes, larger power supplies can draw minimally more current when in
sleep
| mode than smaller capacity PSU's. This is a function of the design of a
| switching power supply and has zero relation to full power modes which
| is the primary, most used and most costly mode of PC use. Most high
| wattage PSU users do not use sleep or hibernate mode, due to the nature
| and limitations of sleep and hibernate mode. STR1&3 is most useful in
| portable and battery operated laptops where the minimal wattage
| differences actually effect lifetime. The differences are minimal, vary
| by manufacturer, and the referenced chart is a guideline for
| certification, not actual draws from the line current or specific
units.
| Many designs beat those specifications by virtue of their efficiency
| rating being near to 80% in standby mode, not the recommended (and
| rather poor) 50% efficiency of the specification.
|
| That you send me a link to a 45 page PDF which goes into minutia of the
| electrical specifications of ATX v2.2, is the very point of my initial
| assertion that the consumer has precious little meaningful guidance and
| is in fact mis-served by the distilled information from the
| specification that ends up on the outside of the retail box.
|
| Lastly, marginal power supplies (those that just barely meet the
current
| needs of the PC system) are the ones that generate more waste heat
since
| they are at the limits of the specifications of their components. Over
| built supplies achieve far better performance by having components that
| are not stressed under use. The PSU's fans spin slower as well (if at
| all) since ambient temperatures (which negatively affect efficiency)
are
| lower due to reduced resistance in the internal circuitry. As the
| temperature rises, so does resistance, which in turn raises the
| temperature again, lowering efficiency.
|
|
| And what about 'certification list encourages overspending on
unneeded
| capacity'?
|
|
| I do not disagree that marketers are trying to get more money from
| misinformed consumers by "up-selling" wattage ratings on otherwise
| mediocre PSU's. My point is that the industry needs to adopt the same
| reformations that home stereo component and speaker manufacturers did
in
| the 80's. Dropping the numbers games and focusing on what units can
| power which devices.
|
|
|
|
|

The root post in this thread is about how much PSU is needed... That's what
I replied to. You can't deduce that?




"Phil Weldon" wrote in message
ink.net...
And you are responding to which post?

Phil Weldon

"Bobby D" wrote in message
...
Let me see here. I'm going to spend drop $900 for the fastest processor,
$600 for each of the two 8800GTX SLI cards, $200 - $300 for the latest
MB, twice that for good DDR2 memory at least in the 2 Gb size, another
$200 plus for each Raptor drive... Etc.. Etc...

After getting that together, what dunce would even consider worrying
about $100 here or there in getting a PSU that's up to the task, with
adequate additional capacity (like the other components mentioned) to
ensure this machine works at peak performance levels?

Do yourself a favor and add a Coolermaster Real Power Pro 850W
(RS-850-EMBA) or comparable PSU, that is SLI ready, with a silent fan,
and that never breaks a sweat. It's a no brainer.

System Specs
Asus Striker Extreme
Quad Core X6700 at 2.66 GHz (stock speed for now)
2 eVGA 8800GTX 768-P2-N837-AR in SLI
2 Gb, Corsair Twin2X2048-400C4PRO
2 WD1500ADFD Raptor 150 Gb Drives
Windows Vista Ultimate
PSU aforementioned Coolermaster Real Power Pro 850W

BobbyD...


"Phil Weldon" wrote in message
thlink.net...
'Mr.E Solved!' wrote, in part:
| I do not disagree that marketers are trying to get more money from
| misinformed consumers by "up-selling" wattage ratings on otherwise
| mediocre PSU's. My point is that the industry needs to adopt the same
| reformations that home stereo component and speaker manufacturers did
in
| the 80's. Dropping the numbers games and focusing on what units can
| power which devices.
_____

Yeah, right. Look at all the output power ratings for audio amplifier
output levels: RMS, Peak RMS, Acoustic Power, Peak Acoustic (at a
supposed
ratio of 1:2:4:8) and the dependence of output on the speaker impedance
(8:4:2 Ohms). And look at the amplifiers that are labeled with an RMS
power
output greater than the total AC power consumption. Standards to
advertisers and merchandisers are vague at best, and something to be
ignored
a worst.

Thus the need for an educated buyer. Without trying to understand the
manufacturing standards a buyer is at the mercy of those who either
ignore
or don't understand the standards. In "Dropping the numbers games and
focusing on what units can power which devices." you bury your head in
the
sand.

The topic is not annoying, a 'know-nothing' attitude is.

By the way, according to ATX 12V rev 2.2, Energy Star requirements for
power
supplies rated at over 450 Watts are equal to or less than 10% of the
rated
maximum continuous power rating.

Phil Weldon




"Mr.E Solved!" wrote in message
. ..
| Phil Weldon wrote:
| 'Mr.E Solved!' wrote, in part:
| | a PSU with a larger capacity than the current required by the PC
| | draws no more power from the wall than a smaller PSU that still
has a
| | larger capacity than the current required.
| _____
|
|
| Not so (see Energy Star requirements at
|


tp://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/ATX12V_PSDG_2_2_public_br2.pdf
).
|
| You are incorrect, I will politely correct you again, but please, this
| topic is annoying enough without having to argue that which is
| understood already.
|
| The Energy Star requirements for ATX v2.2 are only considered when the
| APIC v1.1 of v1.4 enabled PC is in STR Mode 1 or 3, not when in actual
| use (or off). The scaling of AC current draw from the line as it
applies
| to the continuous available wattage rating of the PSU, as indicated on
| page 22, section 3.2.5.2, table 10, is relevant only when the PC is in
| sleep or hibernate mode (STR1&3).
|
| Yes, larger power supplies can draw minimally more current when in
sleep
| mode than smaller capacity PSU's. This is a function of the design of
a
| switching power supply and has zero relation to full power modes which
| is the primary, most used and most costly mode of PC use. Most high
| wattage PSU users do not use sleep or hibernate mode, due to the
nature
| and limitations of sleep and hibernate mode. STR1&3 is most useful in
| portable and battery operated laptops where the minimal wattage
| differences actually effect lifetime. The differences are minimal,
vary
| by manufacturer, and the referenced chart is a guideline for
| certification, not actual draws from the line current or specific
units.
| Many designs beat those specifications by virtue of their efficiency
| rating being near to 80% in standby mode, not the recommended (and
| rather poor) 50% efficiency of the specification.
|
| That you send me a link to a 45 page PDF which goes into minutia of
the
| electrical specifications of ATX v2.2, is the very point of my initial
| assertion that the consumer has precious little meaningful guidance
and
| is in fact mis-served by the distilled information from the
| specification that ends up on the outside of the retail box.
|
| Lastly, marginal power supplies (those that just barely meet the
current
| needs of the PC system) are the ones that generate more waste heat
since
| they are at the limits of the specifications of their components. Over
| built supplies achieve far better performance by having components
that
| are not stressed under use. The PSU's fans spin slower as well (if at
| all) since ambient temperatures (which negatively affect efficiency)
are
| lower due to reduced resistance in the internal circuitry. As the
| temperature rises, so does resistance, which in turn raises the
| temperature again, lowering efficiency.
|
|
| And what about 'certification list encourages overspending on
unneeded
| capacity'?
|
|
| I do not disagree that marketers are trying to get more money from
| misinformed consumers by "up-selling" wattage ratings on otherwise
| mediocre PSU's. My point is that the industry needs to adopt the same
| reformations that home stereo component and speaker manufacturers did
in
| the 80's. Dropping the numbers games and focusing on what units can
| power which devices.
|
|
|
|
|

'Bobby D.' wrote:
The root post in this thread is about how much PSU is needed... That's
what I replied to. You can't deduce that?
_____

Wouldn't have to if you had replied correctly. That is, used your
newsreader to reply to that initial post, rather than to another. That will
keep a thread organized.

Phil Weldon

"Bobby D" wrote in message
t...
The root post in this thread is about how much PSU is needed... That's
what I replied to. You can't deduce that?




"Phil Weldon" wrote in message
ink.net...
And you are responding to which post?

Phil Weldon

"Bobby D" wrote in message
...
Let me see here. I'm going to spend drop $900 for the fastest processor,
$600 for each of the two 8800GTX SLI cards, $200 - $300 for the latest
MB, twice that for good DDR2 memory at least in the 2 Gb size, another
$200 plus for each Raptor drive... Etc.. Etc...

After getting that together, what dunce would even consider worrying
about $100 here or there in getting a PSU that's up to the task, with
adequate additional capacity (like the other components mentioned) to
ensure this machine works at peak performance levels?

Do yourself a favor and add a Coolermaster Real Power Pro 850W
(RS-850-EMBA) or comparable PSU, that is SLI ready, with a silent fan,
and that never breaks a sweat. It's a no brainer.

System Specs
Asus Striker Extreme
Quad Core X6700 at 2.66 GHz (stock speed for now)
2 eVGA 8800GTX 768-P2-N837-AR in SLI
2 Gb, Corsair Twin2X2048-400C4PRO
2 WD1500ADFD Raptor 150 Gb Drives
Windows Vista Ultimate
PSU aforementioned Coolermaster Real Power Pro 850W

BobbyD...


"Phil Weldon" wrote in message
thlink.net...
'Mr.E Solved!' wrote, in part:
| I do not disagree that marketers are trying to get more money from
| misinformed consumers by "up-selling" wattage ratings on otherwise
| mediocre PSU's. My point is that the industry needs to adopt the same
| reformations that home stereo component and speaker manufacturers did
in
| the 80's. Dropping the numbers games and focusing on what units can
| power which devices.
_____

Yeah, right. Look at all the output power ratings for audio amplifier
output levels: RMS, Peak RMS, Acoustic Power, Peak Acoustic (at a
supposed
ratio of 1:2:4:8) and the dependence of output on the speaker impedance
(8:4:2 Ohms). And look at the amplifiers that are labeled with an RMS
power
output greater than the total AC power consumption. Standards to
advertisers and merchandisers are vague at best, and something to be
ignored
a worst.

Thus the need for an educated buyer. Without trying to understand the
manufacturing standards a buyer is at the mercy of those who either
ignore
or don't understand the standards. In "Dropping the numbers games and
focusing on what units can power which devices." you bury your head in
the
sand.

The topic is not annoying, a 'know-nothing' attitude is.

By the way, according to ATX 12V rev 2.2, Energy Star requirements for
power
supplies rated at over 450 Watts are equal to or less than 10% of the
rated
maximum continuous power rating.

Phil Weldon




"Mr.E Solved!" wrote in message
. ..
| Phil Weldon wrote:
| 'Mr.E Solved!' wrote, in part:
| | a PSU with a larger capacity than the current required by the PC
| | draws no more power from the wall than a smaller PSU that still
has a
| | larger capacity than the current required.
| _____
|
|
| Not so (see Energy Star requirements at
|



p://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/ATX12V_PSDG_2_2_public_br2.pdf
).
|
| You are incorrect, I will politely correct you again, but please,
this
| topic is annoying enough without having to argue that which is
| understood already.
|
| The Energy Star requirements for ATX v2.2 are only considered when
the
| APIC v1.1 of v1.4 enabled PC is in STR Mode 1 or 3, not when in
actual
| use (or off). The scaling of AC current draw from the line as it
applies
| to the continuous available wattage rating of the PSU, as indicated
on
| page 22, section 3.2.5.2, table 10, is relevant only when the PC is
in
| sleep or hibernate mode (STR1&3).
|
| Yes, larger power supplies can draw minimally more current when in
sleep
| mode than smaller capacity PSU's. This is a function of the design of
a
| switching power supply and has zero relation to full power modes
which
| is the primary, most used and most costly mode of PC use. Most high
| wattage PSU users do not use sleep or hibernate mode, due to the
nature
| and limitations of sleep and hibernate mode. STR1&3 is most useful in
| portable and battery operated laptops where the minimal wattage
| differences actually effect lifetime. The differences are minimal,
vary
| by manufacturer, and the referenced chart is a guideline for
| certification, not actual draws from the line current or specific
units.
| Many designs beat those specifications by virtue of their efficiency
| rating being near to 80% in standby mode, not the recommended (and
| rather poor) 50% efficiency of the specification.
|
| That you send me a link to a 45 page PDF which goes into minutia of
the
| electrical specifications of ATX v2.2, is the very point of my
initial
| assertion that the consumer has precious little meaningful guidance
and
| is in fact mis-served by the distilled information from the
| specification that ends up on the outside of the retail box.
|
| Lastly, marginal power supplies (those that just barely meet the
current
| needs of the PC system) are the ones that generate more waste heat
since
| they are at the limits of the specifications of their components.
Over
| built supplies achieve far better performance by having components
that
| are not stressed under use. The PSU's fans spin slower as well (if at
| all) since ambient temperatures (which negatively affect efficiency)
are
| lower due to reduced resistance in the internal circuitry. As the
| temperature rises, so does resistance, which in turn raises the
| temperature again, lowering efficiency.
|
|
| And what about 'certification list encourages overspending on
unneeded
| capacity'?
|
|
| I do not disagree that marketers are trying to get more money from
| misinformed consumers by "up-selling" wattage ratings on otherwise
| mediocre PSU's. My point is that the industry needs to adopt the same
| reformations that home stereo component and speaker manufacturers did
in
| the 80's. Dropping the numbers games and focusing on what units can
| power which devices.
|
|
|
|
|