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Under water for Battlefield 3.



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 15th 11, 07:56 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia,comp.games.development.design,comp.graphics.algorithms,comp.graphics.api.opengl,microsoft.public.directx.graphics
Skybuck Flying[_7_]
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Default Under water for Battlefield 3.

Hello,

Will Battlefield 3 have a map with an under water section ?

Call of Duty 7 will have at least one single player map with an under water
section ?!

So Battlefield 3 should at least have one too ! =D

So if you know of any good under water graphics algorithms post them here !
=D

Bye,
Skybuck =D

  #2  
Old June 15th 11, 08:19 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia,comp.games.development.design,comp.graphics.algorithms,comp.graphics.api.opengl,microsoft.public.directx.graphics
Wolfgang Draxinger
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Posts: 13
Default Under water for Battlefield 3.

On Wed, 15 Jun 2011 20:56:19 +0200
"Skybuck Flying" wrote:

So if you know of any good under water graphics algorithms post them
here ! =D


Sure, just render things as usual and apply an exponential fog
falloff. Seriously, rendering underwater scenes is boring.

What's interesting is rendering boundary surfaces between volumina of
different optical density. That's where things become
interesting, however it's not terribly difficult:

1. Render the underwater scene like usual (apply exponential fog for
absorption of light), but refract the viewing frustum boundary vectors
and use a texture as target.

2. Render the scene over water mirrored in the water surface, again
target a texture.

3. Create a boundary surface. In the case of water you'll want waves.
Simulating realistic looking waves is the hardest parts, but there are
several methods (Google "realtime low viscosity wave and ripple
simulation"). Usually you'll go for some fourier transform based method.

4. Use the wave normal map to distort the underwater and reflection
textures, today one does this using a fragment shader. Mix the textures
by applying a Fresnel term. If you want to spice things up apply a
slightly stronger distortion on the blue and a slightly weaker on the
red channel to account for chromatic abberation.

Really, totally boring stuff if you've done it often enough. It was new
around 2003 when programmable GPUs hit the market. I actually did this
kind of stuff using a fixed function pipeline GeForce2 some years
earlier, but it required several rendering passes.

What's a lot harder than water and refractions is realtime indirect
lighting. And good lighting is what makes a scene looking nonartificial.


Wolfgang

  #3  
Old June 15th 11, 08:24 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia,comp.games.development.design,comp.graphics.algorithms,comp.graphics.api.opengl,microsoft.public.directx.graphics
Skybuck Flying[_7_]
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Posts: 460
Default Under water for Battlefield 3.

So let me be clear about this.

At least one map/level for multiplayer which has an under water section,
like a lake or a river or a sea, and where players can swim under water and
kill each other with a knife, or any other weapon which might work under
water, perhaps granades, perhaps bazooka's, perhaps bullits up to 90
centimeters from air to water, or perhaps even fully under water.
Perhaps scuba diver equipment for a special solder type, which can help out
and go under water, and get rid of those pesky spies under water, perhaps
pesky under water granade launcher, perhaps even under water tiny or medium
submarines which shoot missiles as the beach.

Also to infiltrate carriers or so swim under water close to them... and
shoot wire up and try to board it.

Also water might be use to exchange fires if soldiers on fire... not sure if
there will be a flame thrower... perhaps water can also be used to collect
"water in bottles" which could provide health bonusses. Perhaps enemies can
poison the water. The water/scuba diver soldier could have equipment to test
the water to say if it's save or not to drink/bottle. When it gives a signal
an icon would appear above it's head.. "water is safe to drink symbol". or
"water is poisened" symbol. It could also have the anti-dote to inject into
the water or it could clean the water and give out bottles to other
soldiers. So it could be like a "water giving" soldier, like a medic which
gives out med packs (so the water soldier could replace the medic somewhat
if necessary).

Driving submarines under water would also be cool, this would add a new
element to Battlefield 3, I think stuff like this is what gamers are looking
for in a new Battlefield 3.

When Battlefield 2 was launched it was mostly new to many gamers, none had
flown before, none had driven tanks before or barely, none had flown heli's
before or barely...
I think this "freshness/newness experience" is what Battlefield 3 gamers are
looking for.

Therefore for Battlefield 3 to attract this old croud and keep them playing
and gaming requires new elements to the game.

So driving/manouvring a submarine would be one of those perfect additions to
the game which add something new... the driver could then deploy mines in
the sea to try and fight off those scuba divers... scuba divers might also
have some equipment to try and fight them off... perhaps they could even
"launch/go to water" from a carrier with dolphins then the dolphin
blows up onto the mine... to bad for the dolphin but it saves lifes...
perhaps this is to mean and something else could be done with the dolphin...
perhaps faster swimming otherwise forget the fricking dolphin

Anyway there could also be a cruise destroyer ship, which is ment as a
submarine killer and other ship killer, so players could manouver it as well
and drop depth bombs/charges at the submarines to try and take em out.

The submarines can launch missiles at the beach as said before, and perhaps
the cruiser could launch some as well.... perhaps there could also be a navy
big battleship which has huge powerfull cannons which can also bombard the
beach. Such a multiplayer map could focus on taking out the big ships first
or at least it's cannons before it's save to concuer flags on the beach or
other spots. The map could also end when all ships destroyed... so it could
also be a ship destruction versus airfield/base destruction or so.
Which ever team destroys the opponents base the quickest wins... however by
capturing flags people can spawn faster and get certain bonusses, like more
weapons/vehicles to fight with... so capturing flags remains important
too... so then the gamers-interesting dilemma becomes: do I protect base or
do I protect flags... rolls for different players to forfill.

Perhaps there could even be satelittes taking part in the multiplayer like
ion cannons or the ever populair nuclear bomb and/or missile strike...
perhaps players could switch to nuclear-radiation-proof masks/brieving
devices to take breath, and nuclear radiatiom detection devices... to warn
of health going down or perhaps that could be automatic.

So the nuclear bombs/missiles strikes could either be part of the game, so
the game can continue and suddenly the battlefield would change in a nuclear
hit battlezone/battlefield, with lot's of destruction everywhere... lot's of
destroyed buildings and blackness on the ground or so... perhaps some
sections of the map would still be intact until those are perhaps hit as
well.

Don't over do it on the nuclear front though... if somebody plays really
well, he's awared a nuclear strike... or perhaps the commander gets a
nuclear strike option if his team does exceptionally well, for some more
enemy punishment

The strike could also be the "final" blow to the enemy right before the
level ends... but that has been done before I think... it's probably most
fun to include it while playing and then being able to continue playing.

Some soldiers might be badly wounded because of the strike but they
survived... perhaps some might even be blind... and need to fight on blinded
! That would be cool !

Some might have a leg missing or their leg broken and need to limp or even
crawl on which would be cool.

Some soldiers might even be cut in half and screaming for help...
unfortunately they going to die soon, so there is nothing we can do for
them... except hope that they might put some more bullits into an enemy
which happens to come along

Perhaps we could even inject a painkiller/life ending poison to put him out
of his misery... or just a bullit threw the brain which would be considered
a deed of mercy
Then he can respawn... but only if the guy requests to be shot LOL. Or he
simply takes his pistol and commits suicide ! LOL. Other players would see
the suicide animation... which might disturb them a bit... but that's
battlefield ! You gotta be able to handle drama like that ! A bit
tasteless perhaps... so it needs to be tested out if it can be done
tastefull or not.
If it's very distastefull then probably leave it out. This is not postal
after all

More attack heli's would be cool too, better looking apaches but I think
they already in the game... that's nice... also perhaps the experimental
stealthy commanche helichopter that be cool. That would be the commanche
game build into battlefield 3 for maximum awesomeness !

Perhaps the joint strike fighter could also be included into the game for
maximum moderness/recentness and awesome/coolness.
Perhaps the raptor F22 (?) too.

Perhaps even a surprise appereance of the rumored aurojet... though that
might be pushing it... fantasy elements should be left out... but ask
yourself: is aurora a fantasy or a topsecret project ? War does have it's
surprises... so some experimental new vehicles should fit in.

Perhaps single player could introduce the concept of the new top secret
weapon "the aurojet" so players know it exists and what it is
It could be a big triangle with some 3 lights underneath it flying high up
in the sky at incredible speeds.
What it’s purpose is is yet unknown perhaps close up pictures of
battefields, perhaps bombing, perhaps anti-nuke-missile capabilities,
perhaps satelite knock outs.
Perhaps super-sonic-bomber, bombs flieing at the battlefield with incredible
speed, after the bomb strikes and explodes only then do you hear the whistle
!
So the aurojet could be called upon by the commander for a super sonic
(bomb) strike ! (multiplayer perhaps even single player too)

So I hope the Battlefield 3 designers/developers listen to this posting and
I hope they understand what Battlefield 3 gamers really want... they don't
just want a better looking Battlefield 2... they need a certain
freshness/newness to it... to come back to it... otherwise it would be a bit
boring.

I'd rather see Battlefield 3 delayed to build in these great new things,
then an early boring unimpressive game

Battlefield 2 has a reputation to hold up ! =D Battlefield 3 should be so
awesome that Battlefield 4 will have the most pre-orders in history !
So think of the future too ! =D

At least one map/level for single which has an under water section, good
simply be a swimming section to survive a tunnel collapse. It's just to show
off that the game can do it and what to expect in multiplayer later on.

Bye,
Skybuck.

  #4  
Old June 15th 11, 08:36 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia,comp.games.development.design,comp.graphics.algorithms,comp.graphics.api.opengl,microsoft.public.directx.graphics
Skybuck Flying[_7_]
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Posts: 460
Default Under water for Battlefield 3.

That's where the challenge is...

Try to make it look good, try to make it look interesting and full of
detail.

Like under water plants, fish, water bubbles, big water bubbles of
explosions.

There are probably no games out there that really do it well, so it might be
an under developed graphical thingie.

Though I do remember "future shock" or whatever the game was called, but it
was a fantasy game and there was just somewater going through corridors...
I never really played that game...

But for a game like Battlefield 3 there could/should be some more than just
"fog" and a flat ocean bottom or no surface at all...

Perhaps sea-creature-shells can be added to beach for extra beach details,
perhaps ocean/sea/beach bottom as well with more detail.

Soldiers could even get hurt by swimming to close to sea correl which might
cut them up.

There could also be maps with big builders in the beach sea or air/sea
tunnels which can be swim through.

Come to think of it Call of Duty 5 had a special "water splashes" effect
which was pretty cool and most rememberable.

Rumor has it that it only worked on nvidia cards and not ati.

In the far future say 15 years from now, devices might be so powerfull that
lightning and glass/water effect/reflection could even be calculated... and
water would be dripping between soldier fingers and over their heads when
they come out of the sea...

So there is still a lot to be done at that front !

Even rainbow effects of water splashing against the sides of a harbor might
be possible or so

Bye,
Skybuck.

  #5  
Old June 15th 11, 08:45 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia,comp.games.development.design,comp.graphics.algorithms,comp.graphics.api.opengl,microsoft.public.directx.graphics
Skybuck Flying[_7_]
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Posts: 460
Default Under water for Battlefield 3.

For lakes entirely different situations/sceneria's and effects could exist.

Think of dirty populated lakes.

Or grounds but under water by rommel, to drown paratroopers.

Soldiers could fall into the water with parachutes and then need to struggle
to get out of it.

The lakes themselfes could have green water or populated water... there
could also be some ducks around which could be killed or fly away to signal
their presense to potential enemies or teammates.

There could be some yellow bamboe/high grass in some sections of the lake.

Trees drowning and growning out of the lake...

Under water tree roots and tree branches.

The soldiers could then ask themselfes:

Do I really wanna go into the dirty ****ty mess ?! The answer might be a
forced: yes ! The enemy is shooting at us with miniguns... we be safer under
water then out here in the open !

So lake could give a somewhat tactical advantage as a natural bullit
stopper.

Lake leaves/plants could be floating on top of the lake.

There could even be frogs, dead frogs or frog foam.

Perhaps dity yellow greenish foam from tiny water rivers/tiny water falls
flowing into the lake.

Perhaps even tree leaves falling and floating down and hitting the lake and
floating on top of the surface.

It's all about details details details details to make it look good,
realistic and interesting ! =D

Bye,
Skybuckd =D

  #6  
Old June 15th 11, 08:45 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia,comp.games.development.design,comp.graphics.algorithms,comp.graphics.api.opengl,microsoft.public.directx.graphics
Skybuck Flying[_7_]
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Posts: 460
Default Under water for Battlefield 3.



"Skybuck Flying" wrote in message
b.home.nl...

"
For lakes entirely different situations/sceneria's and effects could exist.

Think of dirty populated lakes.
"

I ment polutted lakes

"
Or grounds but under water by rommel, to drown paratroopers.

Soldiers could fall into the water with parachutes and then need to struggle
to get out of it.

The lakes themselfes could have green water or populated water... there
could also be some ducks around which could be killed or fly away to signal
their presense to potential enemies or teammates.

There could be some yellow bamboe/high grass in some sections of the lake.

Trees drowning and growning out of the lake...

Under water tree roots and tree branches.

The soldiers could then ask themselfes:

Do I really wanna go into the dirty ****ty mess ?! The answer might be a
forced: yes ! The enemy is shooting at us with miniguns... we be safer under
water then out here in the open !

So lake could give a somewhat tactical advantage as a natural bullit
stopper.

Lake leaves/plants could be floating on top of the lake.

There could even be frogs, dead frogs or frog foam.

Perhaps dity yellow greenish foam from tiny water rivers/tiny water falls
flowing into the lake.

Perhaps even tree leaves falling and floating down and hitting the lake and
floating on top of the surface.

It's all about details details details details to make it look good,
realistic and interesting ! =D
"

Bye,
Skybuckd =D

  #7  
Old June 15th 11, 08:48 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia,comp.games.development.design,comp.graphics.algorithms,comp.graphics.api.opengl,microsoft.public.directx.graphics
Skybuck Flying[_7_]
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Posts: 460
Default Under water for Battlefield 3.

However Battlefield 3 seems to be more about a game of sand/dessert.

I think they got that one down by now... I do wonder will there be more
grass ?

There does seem to be "paris" and "subway" stuff in the game.

Perhaps Paris has a lake which could be included

Bye,
Skybuck =D

  #8  
Old June 15th 11, 09:46 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia,comp.games.development.design,comp.graphics.algorithms,comp.graphics.api.opengl,microsoft.public.directx.graphics
Wolfgang Draxinger
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Posts: 13
Default Under water for Battlefield 3.

On Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:36:51 +0200
"Skybuck Flying" wrote:

That's where the challenge is...

Try to make it look good, try to make it look interesting and full of
detail.

Like under water plants, fish, water bubbles, big water bubbles of
explosions.


This is not a algorithmic problem, at least not on the graphics front.
This is a artistic challange, and maybe a problem of proper physics
simulation.

And explosions under water, in reality they don't look like you think
they do: The key characteristic of an explosion is, that it creates a
shock wave, shock waves travel with the speed of sound (in water about
1000m/s). A shock wave consists of a high pressure front (shock front)
and a low pressure rear. If the pressure difference is large enough, on
the low pressure side the vapour temperature of water drops below 0°C
(this is called cavitation) and high pressure means a local rise of
temperature. So at the shock wave boundary the water is literally
boiling like in a kettle. But only at the shock wave boundary, which
radially expands with 1000m/s; behind it, it condensates immediately.
Due to the expansion of the shock wave, the pressure drops with 1/r²,
which means that in a few meters from the explosion the pressure
difference is too low to cause cavitation, which defines the limiting
radius for the bubble sphere shell an underwater explosion creates.

Fishes are just a challenge in NPC design, and texturing. Scales would
probably rendered using some tangent shading model. Plants are, well
plants, like on land, only they move differently; slower and more fluid.

There are probably no games out there that really do it well, so it
might be an under developed graphical thingie.


Well, it's not a matter of graphics algorithms; optics work quite the
same way under water, than they do outside. I mean, we (humans)
literally live in an ocean of an optical dense medium called air.

Perhaps sea-creature-shells can be added to beach for extra beach
details, perhaps ocean/sea/beach bottom as well with more detail.


Again an artistic challenge. And if you raise the amount of detail also
probably hitting the resource limits of current GPUs.

Soldiers could even get hurt by swimming to close to sea correl which
might cut them up.


That's game logic, totally off topic in all but one of the NGs you're
crossposting.

There could also be maps with big builders in the beach sea or
air/sea tunnels which can be swim through.


Well, if you're patient an are willing to wait for the game I'm
developing with some friends: There'll be a cave diving map.

In the far future say 15 years from now, devices might be so
powerfull that lightning and glass/water effect/reflection could even
be calculated... and water would be dripping between soldier fingers
and over their heads when they come out of the sea...


glass/water effects can be rendered already, they're just not very
accurate at the moment, because they work on an approximation of the
environment. Anything beyond that requires the use of realtime
raytracing. Technically our GPUs are already performant enough to do it
at low resolution (640x480 or so). So give it maybe 4 years only.

But the realtime refraction effects we have today are already good
enough, you'd have to study a single frame very carefully to make out
the errors of approximation.

So there is still a lot to be done at that front !


At the moment I see only one open front in game graphics development
and that is good looking dynamic indirect lighting.

Even rainbow effects of water splashing against the sides of a harbor
might be possible or so


Those are easy. The principle of diffraction of light in water mist is
well understood and so easy to emulate.

What modern game development really needs is a new challenge on
the gameplay frontier. FPSs, RPGs, racing games, combat games haven't
changed in years, they follow the same principle ever since. Invent
some new kind of gameplay, that's where we need to move on. I mean,
just look how popular Minecraft is, and it has ****ty graphics if you
compare it with modern standards.

Graphics, duh, a game doesn't get good only because it has kick ass
graphics. I still prefer good old DeusEx or System Shock over umm, I
don't even remember the names of the countless, soulless games I've
played in the last years. But create some innovative gameplay, like
Portal or Mirror's Edge, and you'll have a place in my heart forever.


Wolfgang

  #9  
Old June 18th 11, 01:18 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia,comp.games.development.design,comp.graphics.algorithms,comp.graphics.api.opengl,microsoft.public.directx.graphics
Skybuck Flying[_7_]
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Posts: 460
Default Under water for Battlefield 3.

Here some more idea's:

1. A gigant storm on the sea map. (day night map and night time map,
especially night time could be interesting.).

2. Eb and tide for beach. (And water splatter on the beach ).

Bye,
Skybuck.

  #10  
Old June 27th 11, 03:38 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia,comp.games.development.design,comp.graphics.algorithms,comp.graphics.api.opengl,microsoft.public.directx.graphics
rIO
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Posts: 1
Default Under water for Battlefield 3.

On 15/06/2011 21.19, Wolfgang Draxinger wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jun 2011 20:56:19 +0200
"Skybuck wrote:

So if you know of any good under water graphics algorithms post them
here ! =D


Sure, just render things as usual and apply an exponential fog
falloff. Seriously, rendering underwater scenes is boring.

What's interesting is rendering boundary surfaces between volumina of
different optical density. That's where things become
interesting, however it's not terribly difficult:

1. Render the underwater scene like usual (apply exponential fog for
absorption of light), but refract the viewing frustum boundary vectors

[SNIP!]

Also light streaks and particles floating can help the realism imho...

--
rIO.sK
 




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