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16mb buffer hard drive in a laptop



 
 
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  #41  
Old August 27th 04, 04:00 PM
Al Dykes
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In article ,
Shailesh Humbad wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
David Chien wrote:


However, they won't operate for long. They have very limited number of
write cycles.

Tell that to my 800MB 2.5" flash drive I picked up cheap off ebay.com
that's running just fine in my notebook.

flash cells typically are rated in the 100,000 cycles per cell
lifespan, and with automatic write balancing, drives can last years w/o
any problems at all in most user environments.



In "most user environments" Windows is constantly updating the swap file,
which will kill a flash drive very quickly. If you're not running Windows
that's another story but then you're not running anything characteristic of
"most user environments".

What if we disable the swap file? I wonder if anyone has actually
tried running Windows on a flash disk, or if everyone has just been
scared off by the write-cycle limitation. I have an extra 256MB flash
card, maybe I will try running Win98 off it. A CF to IDE adapter
goes for less about $20.

WinXP embedded can run from flash disk:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...s/xpehelp/html
/xetbsCompactFlash.asp



H**l; Winxp/embedded can run in a cell phone! (I think that's what
Motorola uses)

I know the poeple that write Pebble, a linux tailored to run from a 64
or 128MB CF card on a small mobo that has 64mb RAM. That's all there
is. I've built a couple systems from the setup scripts.The Pebble
package is a WiFI AP and web server that's widely used for the Free
WiFi zones and local coffe shops. Neat stuff.

www.nycwireless.com/pebble

When Pebble Linux boots it makes some of RAM a memory-resident file
system for run-time data. It runs the binaries of the CF card, but
this file system is marked RO after booting is complete to protect the
life of the CF card. It required some magic to make the Linux kernel
happy running from a RO file system.

There are MAKERW and MAKERO commands so that I can edit configuration
files while the system is running and then make the system disk RO
afterwords.

Pebble is designed to run for years in remote locations. A couple
years ago the guys were conservative about CF card write cycle
lifetimes. I haven't heard that they have changed their mind(s).

--
Al Dykes
-----------
adykes at p a n i x . c o m
  #42  
Old August 27th 04, 05:29 PM
J. Clarke
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Posts: n/a
Default

Al Dykes wrote:

In article ,
Shailesh Humbad wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
David Chien wrote:


However, they won't operate for long. They have very limited number of
write cycles.

Tell that to my 800MB 2.5" flash drive I picked up cheap off ebay.com
that's running just fine in my notebook.

flash cells typically are rated in the 100,000 cycles per cell
lifespan, and with automatic write balancing, drives can last years w/o
any problems at all in most user environments.


In "most user environments" Windows is constantly updating the swap
file,
which will kill a flash drive very quickly. If you're not running
Windows that's another story but then you're not running anything
characteristic of "most user environments".

What if we disable the swap file? I wonder if anyone has actually
tried running Windows on a flash disk, or if everyone has just been
scared off by the write-cycle limitation. I have an extra 256MB flash
card, maybe I will try running Win98 off it. A CF to IDE adapter
goes for less about $20.

WinXP embedded can run from flash disk:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...s/xpehelp/html
/xetbsCompactFlash.asp



H**l; Winxp/embedded can run in a cell phone! (I think that's what
Motorola uses)


First, XP Embedded is not quite the same as XP Pro or XP Home. Yes, it can
run from a flash disk, or a CD or a ROM for that matter--it purpose to
existence in fact is that it can be burned into ROM--but it doesn't give
the same functionality. And it's not something that the "average consumer"
is going to have or want.

Second, the cell phones do not run any flavor of XP, they run a variant the
operating system that Microsoft developed to compete with PalmOS, which has
gone through so many name changes that I've given up trying to keep track
of what they call it this week.

I know the poeple that write Pebble, a linux tailored to run from a 64
or 128MB CF card on a small mobo that has 64mb RAM. That's all there
is. I've built a couple systems from the setup scripts.The Pebble
package is a WiFI AP and web server that's widely used for the Free
WiFi zones and local coffe shops. Neat stuff.

www.nycwireless.com/pebble

When Pebble Linux boots it makes some of RAM a memory-resident file
system for run-time data. It runs the binaries of the CF card, but
this file system is marked RO after booting is complete to protect the
life of the CF card. It required some magic to make the Linux kernel
happy running from a RO file system.

There are MAKERW and MAKERO commands so that I can edit configuration
files while the system is running and then make the system disk RO
afterwords.

Pebble is designed to run for years in remote locations. A couple
years ago the guys were conservative about CF card write cycle
lifetimes. I haven't heard that they have changed their mind(s).


You can run MS-DOS from a ROM too.

It is certainly possible to make a machine that uses a flash disk--Palm and
Compaq and many others make such machines and you can buy them at any
office supply store. That has never been the issue. The issue was the
utility of a $40 IDE flash disk as a replacement for the magnetic disk in a
notebook computer used by an "average" consumer.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
  #43  
Old August 27th 04, 05:38 PM
Folkert Rienstra
external usenet poster
 
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"Shailesh Humbad" wrote in message
J. Clarke wrote:
David Chien wrote:


However, they won't operate for long. They have very limited number of
write cycles.

Tell that to my 800MB 2.5" flash drive I picked up cheap off ebay.com
that's running just fine in my notebook.

flash cells typically are rated in the 100,000 cycles per cell
lifespan, and with automatic write balancing, drives can last years w/o
any problems at all in most user environments.



In "most user environments" Windows is constantly updating the swap file,
which will kill a flash drive very quickly. If you're not running Windows
that's another story but then you're not running anything characteristic of
"most user environments".

What if we disable the swap file? I wonder if anyone has actually
tried running Windows on a flash disk, or if everyone has just been
scared off by the write-cycle limitation. I have an extra 256MB flash
card, maybe I will try running Win98 off it.


A CF to IDE adapter goes for less about $20.


Is that a CF to CF-IDE adapter -that merely adds the CompactFlash
IDE commandset- that you stick between a CF-card and a CF- slot or
a CF to 40 pin IDE connector adapter?

Is there any difference in running a flashcard like that and just
running a ramdisk on a Flashcard? Aren't there drivers that allow
you to run a FlashCard as a disk (emulating the command set)?


WinXP embedded can run from flash disk:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...mpactFlash.asp

  #44  
Old August 27th 04, 08:34 PM
David Chien
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I was looking on froogle and these drives in stores go for upwards of
200? why are they so cheap on ebay


He claims they're surplus to a project. Might have "fallen off a truck".


works fine for me here. good seller, no problems with the drive.
  #45  
Old August 27th 04, 09:49 PM
Shailesh Humbad
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Folkert Rienstra wrote:
"Shailesh Humbad" wrote in message

A CF to IDE adapter goes for less about $20.



Is that a CF to CF-IDE adapter -that merely adds the CompactFlash
IDE commandset- that you stick between a CF-card and a CF- slot or
a CF to 40 pin IDE connector adapter?

Is there any difference in running a flashcard like that and just
running a ramdisk on a Flashcard? Aren't there drivers that allow
you to run a FlashCard as a disk (emulating the command set)?


AFAIK, you plug the compact flash card into the adapter, and then the
adapter into an empty IDE port. I believe the adapter has minimal
on-board logic, and is basically just a pass-through. After it's
plugged in, it appears to the system just like any other regular hard
disk drive. You have to format and partition it, and then the system
assigns it a drive letter. No drivers are needed.

http://www.acscontrol.com/Index_ACS....CF_Adapter.htm




  #46  
Old August 28th 04, 11:22 PM
Folkert Rienstra
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Shailesh Humbad" wrote in message
Folkert Rienstra wrote:
"Shailesh Humbad" wrote in message

A CF to IDE adapter goes for less about $20.



Is that a CF to CF-IDE adapter -that merely adds the CompactFlash
IDE commandset- that you stick between a CF-card and a CF- slot or
a CF to 40 pin IDE connector adapter?

Is there any difference in running a flashcard like that and just
running a ramdisk on a Flashcard? Aren't there drivers that allow
you to run a FlashCard as a disk (emulating the command set)?


AFAIK, you plug the compact flash card into the adapter, and then the
adapter into an empty IDE port. I believe the adapter has minimal
on-board logic, and is basically just a pass-through. After it's
plugged in, it appears to the system just like any other regular hard
disk drive. You have to format and partition it, and then the system
assigns it a drive letter.


No drivers are needed.


Which means that there must be some logic that imitates a real IDE bus
(which apparently is not all that different from CF in the first place)
and IDE command set and registers.


http://www.acscontrol.com/Index_ACS....CF_Adapter.htm

  #47  
Old October 30th 04, 09:43 PM
J. Clarke
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Eric Gisin wrote:

"P.T. Breuer" wrote in message
news

or simply drop in a flash hard drive drive. These 2.5" flash drives
have 100% no moving parts, and are 100% silent in operation. You can


However, they won't operate for long. They have very limited number of
write cycles.

Nonsense. Flash hard drives are designed for harsh environments, and have
ECC and sector remapping just like hard drives.


So what? Any flash chip will have in its datasheet the allowable number of
rewrites. If you're using it in an environment in which writes are
frequent (for example Windows with its page file) then you will use up the
allowable writes in a remarkably short time.

They can use other tricks
like rotating frequently written sectors.


Which delay the inevitable.

buy them cheap off www.ebay.com (eg. 800MB for ~$40) and they turn any
laptop into a silent notebook (assuming CPU fan doesn't make sounds, if


Unfortunately, also a dead deadbook, very shortly, if you expect the
flash drive to hold up.

Flash memory cards have no smarts, yet I don't see them dropping like
flies.


Flash memory cards are not normally used as primary storage.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
  #48  
Old October 30th 04, 10:18 PM
Eric Gisin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Eric Gisin wrote:

Nonsense. Flash hard drives are designed for harsh environments, and have
ECC and sector remapping just like hard drives.


So what? Any flash chip will have in its datasheet the allowable number of
rewrites. If you're using it in an environment in which writes are
frequent (for example Windows with its page file) then you will use up the
allowable writes in a remarkably short time.

Then you detect the error and remap the bad sector. Sound familiar?

They can use other tricks
like rotating frequently written sectors.


Which delay the inevitable.

Nope. You have millions of sectors, some of them spares.

Flash memory cards have no smarts, yet I don't see them dropping like
flies.


Flash memory cards are not normally used as primary storage.

They all have frequently written areas, the FAT and root dir. Why aren't they
dying?

  #49  
Old November 3rd 04, 06:06 AM
John Turco
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Eric Gisin wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Eric Gisin wrote:

Nonsense. Flash hard drives are designed for harsh environments, and have
ECC and sector remapping just like hard drives.


So what? Any flash chip will have in its datasheet the allowable number of
rewrites. If you're using it in an environment in which writes are
frequent (for example Windows with its page file) then you will use up the
allowable writes in a remarkably short time.

Then you detect the error and remap the bad sector. Sound familiar?

They can use other tricks
like rotating frequently written sectors.


Which delay the inevitable.

Nope. You have millions of sectors, some of them spares.

Flash memory cards have no smarts, yet I don't see them dropping like
flies.


Flash memory cards are not normally used as primary storage.

They all have frequently written areas, the FAT and root dir. Why aren't they
dying?



Hello, Eric:

"Flash memory cards" will wear out, physically, after a comparatively
brief number of write cycles (100,000 is typical). Are "flash hard
drives" any more durable?


Cordially,
John Turco
  #50  
Old November 4th 04, 05:18 PM
Eric Gisin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"John Turco" wrote in message
...
Eric Gisin wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Eric Gisin wrote:

Nonsense. Flash hard drives are designed for harsh environments, and

have
ECC and sector remapping just like hard drives.

So what? Any flash chip will have in its datasheet the allowable number

of
rewrites. If you're using it in an environment in which writes are
frequent (for example Windows with its page file) then you will use up

the
allowable writes in a remarkably short time.

Then you detect the error and remap the bad sector. Sound familiar?

They can use other tricks
like rotating frequently written sectors.

Which delay the inevitable.

Nope. You have millions of sectors, some of them spares.

Flash memory cards have no smarts, yet I don't see them dropping like
flies.

Flash memory cards are not normally used as primary storage.

They all have frequently written areas, the FAT and root dir. Why aren't

they
dying?


"Flash memory cards" will wear out, physically, after a comparatively
brief number of write cycles (100,000 is typical). Are "flash hard
drives" any more durable?

I already answered that. Twice. Learn to read.

 




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