Power supply EXPLOSION

Doesn't bother me. I have the use of a silent power supply for 3 years.
Anyway we have the sale of goods act, and I'd get my money back after
repeated failure.

That's just it, you DON'T have the use of it if/when it fails.
You have the use till then, but a system failure and downtime
till manufacturer receives it, gets around to sending you another
replacement. If you can't wait for the replacement then you have
to buy another power supply, so it's now 2X the cost.


You seem to be really confusing things here..
I am starting to think your a troll.. but If not then I say consider this..

The PSU company wants to make money..
If they have to replace 100% of their sold stock then that means they'll
probably not be in profit..
So in other words.. This stuff will work for most people under most
conditions..
You cant get 600w fanless PSU's because they just cant manage it..
You can get 200/300/350 Out the wazoo because they can manage it.. They are
not going to make kit that HAS to be replaced..
It's like making a car that's so poor in quality that the whole car will
need to be replaced.. It's not something the mfgr's do.

"kony" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:32:50 GMT, "rstlne"
wrote:

WaterCooling keeps the CPU and what ever else it's connected to cool..
So you dont have 45/50c air feeing the bottom of the heatsink..


Completely untrue.
Water cooling keeps ONLY the part under the water block cool.
"Almost" every other part of the system (which has heat needing
removed) will run hotter because there is the incorrect
assumption that water cooling reduces need for aux airflow.

Even water cooling a CPU is pointless except very extreme
environments or for max o'c. You still need a fan in roughly
same area to cool motherboard power regulators.

There are no passive heatsinks attach'd.. Some mobo mfgrs are using them
now..
Airflow is somewhat useless unless there are some heatsinks to help get the
heat off of the flat surface so it can be moved..
Taking this into consideration then you could add heatsinks to all of the
regulators on board and then your "problem" is fixed..


Water cooling CPU will not reduce temp of "what ever else it's
connected to" by any significant amount. The only way it could
do so would be by reducing heat 'sunk though the CPU pins to the
socket, but any other (relatively) temp-sensitive component is
far removed from that heat path. For example, you won't find any
electrolytic capacitors inside a socket well... not that they'd
be needed there, but there are multiple reasons.


No.. U dont seem to understand this..
Your house has a heater, It warms the air around the heater, that's what
makes the house warm..
If you pumped the heat from your heater outside then your saying it will
still keep your house warm?



That means that the PSU shouldnt have required tons of airflow.. It looks
to
me like the psu just fail'd (short in transformer)..

Nope, it is true that PSU might've required "slightly" less
airflow but only because it's incoming air was a few degrees
cooler, since CPU heat was removed in a path other than drawing
that heat(ed air) up though PSU. Lower temp air though PSU means
lower volume is needed for same temp drop.

What bits other than the amps and possibly regulator on a PSU needs
cooling?..

Water cooler has no pump?
If it has a pump, "inaudible" would be a better description than
completely silent. Fans can also be inaudible, and while
inaudible, can keep OTHER components in the system cooler than
the water cooling since it only focuses on specific components.

MAC cube is a different design, not an alteration of a design
meant to use fans.

Traditional home PC's were not made with "fans" in mind..
Find an asus/tyan/msi/abit/gigabyte/Leadtek/Soltek/DfiLanParty board
specification that REQUIRES case fans in their specifications..

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:01:01 GMT, "rstlne"
wrote:

Rubbish. I can only hear my water pump if I place my ear on the side of
the radiator. The pump is underwater, inside the radiator, all sound is
absorbed.

... and your system failed, didn't it?
So what if other parts haven't failed YET?
There is a clear relationship between heat and lifespan, and your
system CANNOT have most of not all components not under a water
block, running as cool as when an inaudible fan in employed.
I have systems with inaudible fans still running fine, not a
single part has failed.


His Cooling didnt fail, His PSU fail'd..

Did he not suggest it failed because it overheated?
What would you call that if not a failure to cool it?

This is the most common failure that there is in HomePC's..
in fact I would say that when everything is done correctly in electronics
that many times a SMPS is probably the most common failure of anything..

"When everything is done correctly" is a pretty vague statement,
but given that generality, a name-brand PSU of ample wattage and
proper surge protection device would be used. In such setups the
average lifespan of the SMPS is higher than the 3 years reported
(IIRC).

I see your point, and I see his point also..
He SHOULD be able to run a fanless system to be honest..

Fanless is possible, if designed to be so.
Taking a system meant for fan-based cooling and trying to run
without the fans is asking for trouble unless ALL parts that
create excess heat are accordingly cooled to levels conducive to
desired lifespan. Components should outlast the user's desire to
use them... which wasn't the case here.

It's certainly true that someone could work backwards, start out
with a system optimized for fanned cooling and remake it into a
passively (fanless) cooled system, but not by just putting
waterblocks on the 4 hottest components/chips.


The Motherboard & Psu shouldnt need fans past the obvious spots..
Caps, Transformers, and voltage comparitors shouldnt need air going over
them..

Completely untrue.
They are engineered in a cost-effective manner with expectation
that airflow is generated, and RATED according to this. If
motherboard is meant to power 20A CPU, it will have to be derated
if ran hot. Same with SMPS, take a look at some designs giving
the engineering specs, not just the glossy pics meant for PC
end-users.


There are passive motherboards out there..

They may not have fan on the northbridge, but that doesn't mean
they need no airflow. Some, particularly those for Via CPU, have
such low heat that flow rate is not nearly as important, the
sinking of the copper on the board can remove heat at a certain
rate, it's just a matter of how much heat there is to begin with.


My wireless router doesnt have fans in it, nor does any of my digital
receivers, or my home dvd player.

Have you looked at the massive heatsink in a receiver?
Actually some receivers do have fans.
Routers and DVD players use very little power relative to a
modern PC. Even so there are routers with fans, and many people
might argue (perhaps correctly) that such devices could have
longer lifespans if they did have a fan.



The argument that a system cant run fanless is not correct..


Likewise the argument that a system can run fanless is not
accurate, correct. Will it boot and run for a while? Sure, you
can run a car on only a quart of oil for a while too, but is it
wise?

Specifics matter... amount of heat, heat density, removal rate,
needed lifespan. I've seen far more than my share of
motherboards that failed due to running hot for a couple years,
not in my systems but pulled out of someone else's. The simple
fact is that temp does effect component lifespan in a direct way,
there are plenty of spec sheets for myriad components showing
temp vs lifespan relationships as well as temp vs airflow rate.

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:34:38 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
wrote:

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:18:40 GMT, kony wrote:

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:35:45 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
wrote:


I sell you a 9V battery for $150.
I warrant it to power your system for 3 years.
Of course the product is unfit for advertised use per it's specs,
but so are many generic psu.
Of course it won't, so when you try it the battery fails
(hopefully nothing else does) and you return battery to me. A
month or two later (maybe longer) you get new 9V battery in the
mail. This goes on over and over and after 3 years I've still
retained a profit but you still don't have a viable power
solution. Granted this is an absurd extreme but goes to show
that a warranty is not an indicator of expected lifespan. MTBF
"could" be in a perfect world but this one isn't so (perfect).

Doesn't bother me. I have the use of a silent power supply for 3 years. Anyway we have the sale of goods act, and I'd get my money back after repeated failure.

That's just it, you DON'T have the use of it if/when it fails.
You have the use till then, but a system failure and downtime
till manufacturer receives it, gets around to sending you another
replacement. If you can't wait for the replacement then you have
to buy another power supply, so it's now 2X the cost.

So I use a noisy cheap one while I wait.

Keep in mind that a decent power supply will last close to a
decade, 3 year warranty should only be a factor for a low-end
unit, insufficient capacity for the system, defect or failure
fairly isolated from the design of PSU. 3 years is very short
lifespan for a name-brand PSU that typically costs much less per
same true wattage.

I probably won't have it in 10 years. People (well not me anyway) don't stick to the same computer parts!

... and it is your decision to make! If you want disposable
parts that's your choice but it's not very kind to the
environment, particularly when today's 3GHz systems have enough
processing power to remain viable for much longer than those from
10 years ago. Even if you personally don't want the system,
someone else might.

I don't really like wasting things, but they are selling it, so I am assuming that Thermaltake et al are not charletons. Perhaps I shall forward this conversation to them and see what they think of you.

Go ahead, I'd like more details of how they did it. Keep in mind
that I did not speculate on their specific implementation beyond
it's limited amperage rating, rather your implementation which
was a hack job.

While you're out looking for support, drop in to some web forums
and ask if they think it's a good idea to run a fanless system
that isn't optimized specifically for this, including parts
selection.

While you're out, drop into the document section of your CPU
manufacturer's website and see what they have to say about
chassis cooling. Ask your motherboard manufacturer too. You
might even luck out and find they claim it's ok, since the part
may last till the end of a warranty period, even though the
lifespan may be reduced by 50% or more.

You seem to have no grasp of the situation... your PSU is dead
because of your effort and yet you STILL can't learn from the
mistake. There ARE cases designed to passively cool, but it
takes a bit more than just traditional water-cooling, which is
meant to suppliment case cooling, not replace it.

rstlne wrote:

Find an asus/tyan/msi/abit/gigabyte/Leadtek/Soltek/DfiLanParty board
specification that REQUIRES case fans in their specifications..

Wrong place to look. They conform to the ATX form factor so there is no
need for them to repeat it, nor is that part 'their job'.



no..
I dont think it's the wrong place to look to be honest..

Well, it is the wrong place regardless. They don't define the form factor,
nor do they make the case, nor spec the cooling for it. They make
motherboards designed to go IN the form factor and so FOLLOW the spec, not
write it.

Give me a link for rev1 ATX Form Factor spec sheets .. I REALLY dont think
we'll find that a fan is "Required" ..
Intels idea for moving the PSU and CPU near each other was so the PSU
pulling air through the system would mean the CPU would see fresh air coming
over that area resulting in better temps..

And what does the PSU use for "pulling air through the system?"

The only thing I figgure you'll see in the design spec is that a section for
a fan is left in the front of the case oppsite the corner of the psu.. (I
could be wrong but I dont know where to get the ATX Chassis Form Factor
Sheets..
I have had many and worked on many pc's since 1995 (when ATX came out) and
to be honest I NEVER had a case fan until I got my AXP2500+..

That would be a second fan.

I had only ever seen (personally) one pc that had a case fan in it before
that..
And to be honest, my current axp2500+ doesnt even need the case fans..

It still has a PSU fan. Remove that fan and you don't have, as you said,
the PSU "pulling air through the system" as the ATX form factor expects as
a minimum.

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:03:47 GMT, "rstlne"
wrote:

Nope, there are ZERO nice new fanless ones.
The highest quality, best specs and longest lasting PSU are all
actively cooled. Effective passive cooling for a modern system
will require such large passive 'sinks that it won't come near
fitting into a PS/2 size allocation per the PSU casing or system
chassis. Best attempt is when huge fins stick out the back of
system, but even then there is no chance PSU will last as long
unless quite specifically made with different spec and type
components inside, which none have been due to greater cost.


Sorry, but there are nice new fanless psu's out..

Sounds like an assumption to me.
"New" PSU _CANNOT_ be established as decent until the design is
evaluated and tested over a period of time. It can have neon,
sing you to sleep and wear bells on it's toes and that makes no
difference if the component temp isn't kept at low enough level.
Perhaps some do this, but where is the data? PSU manufacturers
have long since learned that a "pretty" PSU will sell even if
user has no ability to evaluate it in it's function as a PSU
instead of a case ornament.

Some day after more data is accumulated it may be correct to call
some models "good", but "new" and "good" can't coincide when
talking about an alternate cooling strategy that inevitably
increases internal temp of the unit, without units out in the
wild for years so we can see how they fare.

The problem is they dont have a fan, so they cant be ATX spec supplys (cause
the atx specifications require that there is a fan in the system)..
yes there are nice new fanless psu's out.. you just need to open your eyes.

Perhaps you should open yours as well, then read some component
spec sheets, measure temps resulting from fanless operation. It
is possible some passive psu are good, relatively speaking, but
you have no way to know that, and insufficient evidence has been
presented to even assume so.

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:38:54 GMT, "rstlne"
wrote:



Completely untrue.
Water cooling keeps ONLY the part under the water block cool.
"Almost" every other part of the system (which has heat needing
removed) will run hotter because there is the incorrect
assumption that water cooling reduces need for aux airflow.

Even water cooling a CPU is pointless except very extreme
environments or for max o'c. You still need a fan in roughly
same area to cool motherboard power regulators.

There are no passive heatsinks attach'd.. Some mobo mfgrs are using them
now..
Airflow is somewhat useless unless there are some heatsinks to help get the
heat off of the flat surface so it can be moved..
Taking this into consideration then you could add heatsinks to all of the
regulators on board and then your "problem" is fixed..

Actually, regulators are 'sunk to the copper under them, this
copper being cooled much faster with actively induced airflow.
Adding a heatsink on top is more effective in preventing damage
to the epoxy casing than overal cooling, as the most direct heat
path is towards the integral metal tab on the back.



Water cooling CPU will not reduce temp of "what ever else it's
connected to" by any significant amount. The only way it could
do so would be by reducing heat 'sunk though the CPU pins to the
socket, but any other (relatively) temp-sensitive component is
far removed from that heat path. For example, you won't find any
electrolytic capacitors inside a socket well... not that they'd
be needed there, but there are multiple reasons.


No.. U dont seem to understand this..

Actually I do, but go ahead and provide an unrelated example.

Your house has a heater, It warms the air around the heater, that's what
makes the house warm..
If you pumped the heat from your heater outside then your saying it will
still keep your house warm?

This is where you lack understanding.
The appropriate analogy would be having several heaters, some
larger than others, and only pumping out the heat created by the
larger heaters, not the smaller ones, and not having a fan to
circulate that heat so it builds up at the source.


That means that the PSU shouldnt have required tons of airflow.. It looks
to
me like the psu just fail'd (short in transformer)..

Nope, it is true that PSU might've required "slightly" less
airflow but only because it's incoming air was a few degrees
cooler, since CPU heat was removed in a path other than drawing
that heat(ed air) up though PSU. Lower temp air though PSU means
lower volume is needed for same temp drop.

What bits other than the amps and possibly regulator on a PSU needs
cooling?..

amps?

Take your pick. Resistors, caps, inductors, transformer
It seems you too easily ignore lower density heat. A 75W CPU has
high density, but if you spread it out over an area the size of
an incandescent light bulb, without active cooling, is the
surface of a 75W bulb going to be cool? Suppose you spread out
the heat even more, why is that effective at reducing temp in an
isolated object? Because there is a heat transmission medium,
that medium being airflow. Radiation of heat works fine in an
open area, up to a point, but a computer case is not an open
area, the temp differential easily climbs. At a mere 10C temp
rise the capacitors alone have halved their lifespan.

Find an asus/tyan/msi/abit/gigabyte/Leadtek/Soltek/DfiLanParty board
specification that REQUIRES case fans in their specifications..

Wrong place to look. They conform to the ATX form factor so there is no
need for them to repeat it, nor is that part 'their job'.


no..
I dont think it's the wrong place to look to be honest..
Give me a link for rev1 ATX Form Factor spec sheets .. I REALLY dont think
we'll find that a fan is "Required" ..
Intels idea for moving the PSU and CPU near each other was so the PSU
pulling air through the system would mean the CPU would see fresh air coming
over that area resulting in better temps..
The only thing I figgure you'll see in the design spec is that a section for
a fan is left in the front of the case oppsite the corner of the psu.. (I
could be wrong but I dont know where to get the ATX Chassis Form Factor
Sheets..
I have had many and worked on many pc's since 1995 (when ATX came out) and
to be honest I NEVER had a case fan until I got my AXP2500+..
I had only ever seen (personally) one pc that had a case fan in it before
that..
And to be honest, my current axp2500+ doesnt even need the case fans..

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:37:02 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
wrote:

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:24:34 GMT, kony wrote:

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:42:38 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
wrote:


Water cooler has no pump?
If it has a pump, "inaudible" would be a better description than
completely silent.

As I said in the other reply, it is SILENT unless my ear is on the radiator and I am crouched uncomfortably under the desk!!!

Fans can be too.

I've yet to find one. Which particular model did you use, and using what model of fan controller?

Panaflo, "L" speed in the size of your choice. For optimal fan
control try a series of diodes, but just about any fan controller
with suitable range can get close to same result, providing it
has full (or nearly so) range, adjustment down to at least 4-5V.
Lowest cost implementation would be seen by having an adjustment
method, I have a pair of 100Ohm POTs for resistor sizing and a
12-position switch with diode-pairs in series for determining #
of diodes per specific fans. Avoid expensive larger fans like
120x38 mm or at least inquire whether they are voltage-dependant,
as some have internal regulation to achieve fixed RPM at a given
larger voltage range. Sunon and Comair are type makes with this
feature in some models, I don't recall in most others as i
usually deal in bulk with Nidec, NMB, Panaflo. Panaflo are the
quietest of the three due to the hydrowave (sleeve) bearing.


Of course not, since you jumped to conclusions instead of
pursuing it. People do it all the time, there are reviews and
recommendations all over the web, try a Google search.

I have. It's a maze. There are articles everywhere, and what many call silent are not.

Success may not be seen on first try, and some people DO appear
to be tone-deaf after a certain point, I have heard several
people claim "quiet" for parts I'd consider too loud for a "PC".
Ideally the fans should not be on front wall of case, be as large
and thick as possible given size constraints, but with multiple
fans to allow suitable flow rate at lowest RPM. A Panaflo can
run at around 5V, though part of the noise level is determined by
how it's mounted, the case wall thickness, overall case design,
nearby obstructions and orientation relative to the ear. It's
much easier to make a "quiet" system than silent, and even one
only "quiet" can be inaudible if placed under a desk, without
much consideration of specific fan models provided a speed
controller is used. Ear-level on a desk with higher-heat parts
is the most challenging, can be necessary to line case with sound
absorbant material and have rear of PSU, where most noise
escapes, pointed at a low-density materal.



and while
inaudible, can keep OTHER components in the system cooler than
the water cooling since it only focuses on specific components.

MAC cube is a different design, not an alteration of a design
meant to use fans.

So what?

So you wanted to use it as an example, when the whole reason it's
fanless is that they designed it from ground up to be that way.
Note that the had to reengineer the whole thing

Reengineering is different from moifying in what way?

You have already mentioned more changes (like case orientation)
than you did originally, it may be that you have made enough
modifications to help a lot, but the issue is then how many, how
effective they are. We cannot see your case, only what you
describe of it. To a certain extent it's expected that you
would've mentioned the ways it deviates from "normal". If you
did make enough changes and monitored the result then it may not
be so different from their reengineering, but remeober that they
designed it from the ground up, did not have to make any
compromises at all. Simply starting out with a standard case, no
matter how you orient it, is already a significant compromise.
Note how Apple allowed quite a bit of flow staight up though that
cube.